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Vergil vs Goku

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CryoTheMayo said:
I didn't refer to Vergil 'poofing' out of existence in his mere 'presence'. I said that Goku could stare Vergil out of existence with the ridiculous AP gap, which Jiren shows is a possibility.
I don't see Vergil winning, considering his Summoned Swords shouldn't be strong enough to warrant them even remotely injuring Goku. So it's entirely up to Yamato. Goku has the definite range advantage with even a simple ki blast killing Vergil in one blow. Goku should also be able to react to Vergil and blowing him away with Kiais.

Again, I don't see how Vergil is even meant to approach Goku. Goku has limitless choices here, due to his AP but Vergil is limited to trying to just teleport to Goku and killing him, which Goku can react to with a counter Kiai.

So this is based on whether or not Goku would recognize the danger of Vergil's Yamato. Goku, when focused, can fight on an equal level with Hit and dodge invisible, instant kill, shockwaves. So if Goku gets even remotely serious he will easily defeat Vergil with his AP, Paralysis, Kiai and Range.

If Goku doesn't get serious early, then maybe Vergil would win? But I don't recall Goku ever letting somebody seriously attack him in-character before, outside of a friendly spar. And every time he has fought or experienced a sword user he has blocked their slashes with a single finger or by pinching the blade.

To my understanding the Demon World and Human World actually have a thin barrier of existence between one another, which is why demons can go into the human world in the form of possessions, right? So would that really mean Vergil can create rifts to travel through solar systems?
Click to expand...
The demon world and Human world were pretty much the same place before Sparda basicaly created the barrier / dimensional wall and Virgil had to do the whole tower summoning and ritual on it to even reach said barrier so he could cut it, it's not like he can open portals to it from anywhere.

And it definitely can't go from planete to planete even if you somehow accept the whole dimension thing, there is litteraly nothing indicating that.
 
@Dragomer yes vergil does have resistence to bfr, read his powers and abilities page again, and he can use his portals to go there dimensions however I am not sure.
 
Dragomer said:
The demon world and Human world were pretty much the same place before Sparda basicaly created the barrier / dimensional wall and Virgil had to do the whole tower summoning and ritual on it to even reach said barrier so he could cut it, it's not like he can open portals to it from anywhere.

And it definitely can't go from planete to planete even if you somehow accept the whole dimension thing, there is litteraly nothing indicating that.
Click to expand...
That was to get the Force Edge from the Temenigru to unlock Sparda's power.DMC5 Vergil is explicitly shown to create portals and he created a portal from the top of the Qliphoth (which is in the Demon World) to the bottom of it (which was in the human world), just a shard of Yamato can easily create portals.And yes Vergil does resist BFR, demons in DMC automatically do.Also, the Demon and Human World weren't the same place as you are implying.The 2 universes were combined originally but split they split, not that the Earth and Demon "Earth" occupy the same space but on a different plane of existence or something like that.
 
Dienomite22 said:
Dragomer said:
The demon world and Human world were pretty much the same place before Sparda basicaly created the barrier / dimensional wall and Virgil had to do the whole tower summoning and ritual on it to even reach said barrier so he could cut it, it's not like he can open portals to it from anywhere.

And it definitely can't go from planete to planete even if you somehow accept the whole dimension thing, there is litteraly nothing indicating that.
Click to expand...
That was to get the Force Edge from the Temenigru to unlock Sparda's power.DMC5 Vergil is explicitly shown to create portals and he created a portal from the top of the Qliphoth (which is in the Demon World) to the bottom of it (which was in the human world), just a shard of Yamato can easily create portals.And yes Vergil does resist BFR, demons in DMC automatically do.
Click to expand...
If Virgil could do what you said he could have open the portal to get to Force Edge from anywhere.

Not that kind of BFR and no, not all demons resist it, hell that's how Sparda saved the humans to begin with.

Yeah so once again, he had to be to the top of a very powerfull Demon Location that was already halfway in both realm to be able to open a portal from the humans to the demons, just like the tower and just like i said.
 
Blueblur24 said:
@Dragomer yes vergil does have resistence to bfr, read his powers and abilities page again, and he can use his portals to go there dimensions however I am not sure.
Click to expand...
Only the Beasthead's BFR, he isn't gonna resist a totaly unrelated technique teleporting him on another planete, he litteraly has nothing indicating that.
 
@Dragomer

No, the Force Edge was connected to the Temenigru because Sparda used it as a seal.So he would still have to go through the tower.

No, Sparda saved humans by sealing the demon world and killing demons, not BFR.Demons are naturally resistent to the Beastheads which does space-time BFR and other stuff but as you said that's not similar to what Goku could do.

No, the top of the Qliphoth was directly stated to be in the demon world and the bottom of it was in the human world making Vergil creating a portal to and from the Human and demon world also as stated before just a shard of Yamato allowed demons such as Balrog to open a portal to and from the demon world which obviously means Vergil can do it with a fully restored Yamato.
 
Dienomite22 said:
@Dragomer
No, the Force Edge was connected to the Temenigru because Sparda used it as a seal.So he would still have to go through the tower.

No, Sparda saved humans by sealing the demon world and killing demons, not BFR.Demons are naturally resistent to the Beastheads which does space-time BFR and other stuff but as you said that's not similar to what Goku could do.

No, the top of the Qliphoth was directly stated to be in the demon world and the bottom of it was in the human world making Vergil creating a portal to and from the Human and demon world also as stated before just a shard of Yamato allowed demons such as Balrog to open a portal to and from the demon world which obviously means Vergil can do it with a fully restored Yamato.
Click to expand...
Not if what you said is true, once again.

trapping someone to another dimension is litteraly BFR and litteraly something Goku can do with IT so no, not all demon are immune to it.

Yeah so once again, powerfull demon location that is halfway in both world, just like the tower Virgil needed to go to the demon world and get force edge to begin with.

Nah, even if it meant what you think it mean, it's like saying everyone can do what Whis can do with his staff if they have his staff.
 
@Dragomer

A "no it's not" reply nice."Wielding a massive sword that shared his name, Sparda laid the demon king to rest, along with his subordinates. He then sealed the gate connecting both worlds(temenigru), using a sword(force edge) as the key. While most records offer little to no details about this weapon, many speculate it to be the Sword of Sparda." Vergil would needed the Temenigru anyways, it doesn't matter if he can create a portal to the demon world or not

He didn't trap them in another dimension, he sealed the dimension.Also, didn't you just say/imply not all BFR's are the same?Just because demons resist space-time BFR doesn't mean they resist sealing BFR.

"Dante sees something glimmering in his fist and he
recognises it ― it is a shard of Yamato. It seems that when parts of Yamato
scattered, a part remained in hell. It seems that Balrog used a shard of Yamato
to enter the human world.
Dante deduces that Balrog had been using the shard to travel to the Human
world."

"Yamato..." out loud. Yamato was once used to seal demons away,
now it is helping demons escape from it.

"Nah, even if it meant what you think it mean, it's like saying everyone can do what Whis can do with his staff if they have his staff." No, it's like saying if some random mook can use an ability with Whis staff that Whis wasn't show to do himself then that mean Whis can't use that ability also.Yamato is belongs to Vergil , if you think Balrog can easily create portals with only just a shard of Yamato but Vergil can't then I don't know what to tell you.
 
Dienomite22 said:
@Dragomer
A "no it's not" reply nice."Wielding a massive sword that shared his name, Sparda laid the demon king to rest, along with his subordinates. He then sealed the gate connecting both worlds(temenigru), using a sword(force edge) as the key. While most records offer little to no details about this weapon, many speculate it to be the Sword of Sparda." Vergil would needed the Temenigru anyways, it doesn't matter if he can create a portal to the demon world or not

He didn't trap them in another dimension, he sealed the dimension.Also, didn't you just say imply not all BFR's are the same?Just because demons resist space-time BFR doesn't mean they resist sealing BFR.

"Dante sees something glimmering in his fist and he
recognises it ― it is a shard of Yamato. It seems that when parts of Yamato
scattered, a part remained in hell. It seems that Balrog used a shard of Yamato
to enter the human world.
Dante deduces that Balrog had been using the shard to travel to the Human
world."

"Yamato..." out loud. Yamato was once used to seal demons away,
now it is helping demons escape from it.
Click to expand...
'i'mm strawman what you said' nice reply.

Except it totaly does matter, because once again, if what you said he can do is true, then he would be able to do that.

You said 'all demons are immune to BFR', i'm making clear it isn't true, change your claim to 'they are immune to Beasthead's BFR, whatever that imply' and then it will be true and i won't have to argue against it

also it isn't sealing, he litteraly just threw them in another dimension, sealing is a different power.

Cool bunch of text without context and once again, it's not because someone can do something with an object that everyone can do it, i doubt Dante and Virgil could do the same as Sparda even with his weapon, especialy since Force Edge's barrier ehad been ****** with by that point and that Balrog could have had access to his place that is midway between both world like Virgil did in both of his feat.
 
@Dragomer That's not even a straw-whatever.

No, I literally posted proof why it isn't that simple.Vergil's goal was to get the Force Edge to obtain Sparda's power but the Force Edge is being used to seal the Temenigru and demon world and in order to gain the Force Edge he would need to open the Temenigru and do the entire ritual and then get Dante's amulet and a bunch of other crap.Keep on denying a fact, I'm not going to play verbal tennis with you on this.

I don't need to say which BFR they are resistent to when it's already listed on the profile, your original claim was "he didn't have resistence to BFR" and you changed it to "he does but not that kind".I'm well aware of what I was saying and acknoweldged the specific BFR he's resistent to.

What? Are you seriously saying something so ridiculous right now?"he literally just threw them in another dimension" lol

A random demon with a grandular in size piece of Yamato is able to use an ability that Vergil, the guy who perfected it's use, can't with a full Yamato (even though Vergil was shown to use portals).Yep, I can tell we're going to agree to disagree on this one.And no Balrog didn't have access to a place that was midway between both worlds, you pulled that out of no where.
 
Dienomite22 said:
That's not even a straw-whatever.
No, I literally posted proof why it isn't that simple.Vergil's goal was to get the Force Edge to obtain Sparda's power but the Force Edge is being used to seal the Temenigru and in order to gain the Force Edge he would need to open the Temenigru and do the entire ritual and then get Dante's amulet and a bunch of other crap.Keep on denying a fact, I'm not going to play verbal tennis with you on this.

I don't need to say which BFR they are resistant to when it's already listed on the profile, your original claim was "he didn't have resistence to BFR" and you changed it to "he doe but not that kind".I'm well aware of what I was saying.

What? Are you seriously saying something so ridiculous right now?"he literally just threw them in another dimension" lol

A random demon with a grandular in size piece of Yamato is able to use an ability that Vergil, the guy who perfected it's use, can't with a full Yamato.Yep, I can tell we're going to agree to disagree on this one.
Click to expand...
It is totaly a strawman, i said 'Not if what you said is true, once again.' and you reduced it to 'A "no it's not" reply nice.'.

Yamato can cut both the barrier and the dimension from anywhere if what you said is true, therefor if it was true, the tower would be useless but it isn't therefor what you try to argue isn't true, bam, simple as that.

Yes, you need to, especialy when said type of BFR was used to try and claim it made resistant / immune to an entirely different type of BFR.

That's litteraly what he did, he litteraly just put them behind a dimensional barrier.

Virgil never perfected it's use, even Dante didn't perfect the use of his Rebellion until way later, especialy in DMC3 where Virgil only wanted power and was basicaly ready to throw away Yamato to get Force Edge.

Also you don't even address the second point about probably having use another place midway between both world like Virgil did in both of his feat.
 
@Dragomer

I can't strawman you if you didn't have an argument, saying "not if what you said is true, once again" and not providing reasons for believing that isn't an argument.

"Yamato can cut both the barrier and the dimension from anywhere if what you said is true" Who said or even implied that?All I did was say Vergil can open a portal to the demon world and proved why the tower isn't useless.You are failing to further explain why the tower is useless.

I literally said that Vergil isn't resistent to any other BFR besides the Beastheads which is space-time.I directly said the BFR Vergil resist isn't the same BFR Goku has.What are you talking about?

No it's not.Read this OP.

Okay? But you're still expecting me to believe a demon who only had a grandualer sized shard of it momentarily can do something Vergil can't with it.You're not gonna convince me.

Uh I did, Balrog didn't have a midway between both worlds.Want me to post the summary scan?
 
Dienomite22 said:
@Dragomer
I can't strawman you if you didn't have an argument, saying "not if what you said is true, once again" and not providing reasons for believing that isn't an argument.

"Yamato can cut both the barrier and the dimension from anywhere if what you said is true" Who said or even implied that?All I did was say Vergil can open a portal to the demon world and proved why the tower isn't useless.You are failing to further explain why the tower is useless.

I literally said that Vergil isn't resistent to any other BFR besides the Beastheads which is space-time.I directly said the BFR Vergil resist isn't the same BFR Goku has.What are you talking about?

No it's not.Read this OP.

Okay? But you're still expecting me to believe a demon who only had a grandualer sized shard of it momentarily can do something Vergil can't with it.You're not gonna convince me.

Uh I did, Balrog didn't have a midway between both worlds.Want me to post the summary scan?
Click to expand...
Except pointing out how you're point is self contradictory is an argument and you're being a dick about it here TBH, chill.

My point is that the tower ISN'T useless and the whole discussion about Yamato's capacity to do that from anywhere is the whole point of the discussion, if we agree he can't then there is nothing to argue about.

I'm talking about why the point about Virgil resisting BFR was even brough up to begin with.

I don't see how it affect what i said, they just call it sealing, it's still just dimensional BFR.

Tony did something Loki couldn't do with the mind stone, there are tons of exemple of that in fiction.

No, you didn't, you just posted Dante realising Balrog was using Yamato to get to the human world, that's all.
 
@Dragomer

But you didn't point out any contradictory, saying "not if what you said is true, once again" isn't pointing out my supposed self-contradictory and isn't an argument.Don't care if you think I'm being a dick but at least stick to what you were saying.

You're point about the tower being NOT being useless comes from a misconception which is, if Vergil can create portals to the demon world then he wouldn't need to use the Temenigru and I proved why that isn't true.

Okay?I never believed that Vergil's BFR resistence mattered here, so lets leave it at that.

You said "he literally put them behind a dimensional barrier" but it's actually Sparda sealing the demon world.Similiar but that doesn't prove demons don't have resistence to BFR, no matter the interpretation.

Tony's also a super genius who obviously can't use the mind stone in a similiar way to Loki due to multiple other reasons wether it's physical, mental or magical and thus making it a bad comparison.

Which proves that Dante is familiar with what Yamato is capable of.

"Yamato as a memento from their father that has the ability to cut
away the boundary between the human world and the demon world."

"Yamato was once used to seal demons away,
now it is helping demons escape from it."

"he suddenly understood that perhaps
his escape from hell was related to Yamato."

All of these conclude that Yamato has the ability to create portals to the demon world, nothing about how Balrog is using the Yamato in a unique way that Vergil isn't capable of.Portal creation to and from the demon world is a property of Yamato and Vergil having Yamato would allow him to use said abilities.
 
Dienomite22 said:
@Dragomer
But you didn't point out any contradictory, saying "not if what you said is true, once again" isn't pointing out my supposed self-contradictory and isn't an argument.Don't care if you think I'm being a dick but at least stick to what you were saying.

You're point about the tower being NOT being useless comes from a misconception which is, if Vergil can create portals to the demon world then he wouldn't need to use the Temenigru and I proved why that isn't true.

Okay?I never contested believed that Vergil's BFR resistence mattered here, so lets leave it at that.

You said "he literally put them behind a dimensional barrier" but it's actually Sparda sealing the demon world.Similiar but that doesn't prove demons don't have resistence to BFR, no matter the interpretation.

Tony's also a super genius who obviously can't use the mind stone in a similiar way to Loki due to multiple other reasons wether it's physical, mental or magical and thus making it a bad comparison.

Which proves that Dante is familiar with what Yamato is capable of.

"Yamato as a memento from their father that has the ability to cut
away the boundary between the human world and the demon world."

"Yamato was once used to seal demons away,
now it is helping demons escape from it."

"he suddenly understood that perhaps
his escape from hell was related to Yamato."

All of these conclude that Yamato has the ability to create portals to the demon world, nothing about how Balrog is using the Yamato in a unique way that Vergil isn't capable of.Portal creation to and from the demon world is a property of Yamato and Vergil having Yamato would allow him to use said abilities.
Click to expand...
I did, i pointed out the contradiction multiple time and it's litteraly self evident so yes, it is an argument and you tried and failed to straw man it.

'b-b-bu-but it's a missconception !!', no, it's a fact, saying it's a missconception isn't an argument, the tower isn't useless, Virgil need it 100% therefor he can't cut it from anywhere, as supported by the fact his only comparable feat happen in the exact same circumstance.

Nope, you didn't prove it, claiming you did isn't an argument.

And that's what he did, he put them behind a dimensional wall, which is the only thing seperating the two world, they just call sealing.

It doesn't make the comparison bad unless Balrog is litteraly a copy paste of Virgil on all level but inferior and without any competence of his own.

Yes, Dante is familiar with his own Brother's weapon, big whoop.

Except that Yamato being able to open portals was never in question, which you would know if you actualy read what i said, what is in question is him doing it from everywhere and the tower prove it simply can't.

Nothing is said either about Balrog just using the fragment to just slash at random places allowing him to open portal from anywhere, if anything it being a fragment just make it obvious he used it as some kind of key.

Also it indicate that Yamato can only open portals to the demon world so it just make his capacity to make portals and cut dimensional wall even lesser, given how it's connection to the demon world is constantly brough up in every single one of your quote.

So again, this all mean we only have two feats of Virgil opening portal from the human world to the demon world, both of which happening in a powerfull demon place that is midway between the two world, with one of them clearly and directly stating that Virgil can't do without, thus clealry proving that it's what he need to make portals to the demon world, thus proving me right.
 
@Dragomer

Stop quoting wall of texts:

No, you didn't unless you want to direct me to what your talking about.

Lol, a "fact". Read this again and then try to tell me how I'm wrong.Wielding a massive sword that shared his name, Sparda laid the demon king to rest, along with his subordinates. He the sealed the gate(Temenigru) connecting both worlds, using a sword as the key(Force Edge)While most records offer little to no details about this weapon, many speculate it to be the Sword of Sparda.Don't know what crawled into your head that made you believe that if Vergil can open portals to the demon world then that would make the Temenigru useless when Vergil's entire goal is connected to the temenigru.

Honestly don't know what you're talking or even arguing here because it would be ridiculous for you to be arguing me agreeing that Vergil's BFR resistence doesn't matter here.

He didn't put them behind a dimensional wall, he cut off their space to get to the human world, once again different but similiar.

You're comparing Loki (mystical being with magic and shit) and Tony (regular human who is smart)using the mind stone (a thing that can kill regular beings) to Balrog(powerful demon) and Vergil (even more powerful demon) using a Yamato(a sword with dimensional cutting properties).Not a good comparison and irrelevent.

"what is in question is him doing it from everywhere" when have I argued this?The only thing I argued is that Vergil can create a portal to and from the demon world.

"Nothing is said either about Balrog just using the fragment to just slash at random places allowing him to open portal from anywhere" Actually, Balrog is shown to only used the Yamato fragment, nothing else.Balrog used it multiple times, creating and leaving portals which actually allowed Dante to escape from hell.No ritual or outside source besides the Yamato shard was implied or stated to be used.

No, it's just a fancy way of saying he can create portals to the demon and human world, unless you want take the statement as literal then that would make it even more powerful of a sword.Yamato being able to create portals is undeniable either way.

None of what you said in this short paragraph is what you were arguing or giving evidence for.Balrog didn't need a midway between the worlds or a ritual.
 
@Dragomer

Your argument contradicts itself.You believe that Yamato needs a midway between the worlds in order to create a portal to the demon world and you said this explains how Vergil used the portal to go to and from the bottom of the Qliphoth and how Balrog was creating portals to the human world.

If that were true then once Vergil was inside the tenmenigru (a midway between the worlds) he should be able to open a portal to the demon world with Yamato and be able to get the Force Edge (even though the Force Edge is connected to the tenmenigru).

This is not only a contradiction but it doesn't even line up with lore or what we know about the Tenmenigru,Force Edge and Sparda's power .
 
Yes i freaking did and if you actualy read what i said, you already know, and in case you haven't, go do it now.

Very easy, you're wrong everywhere, if Virgil can open the portal from anywhere, he just slash in front of him and bam, he has done it and just has to take the sword and cut the gate, simple as that, but he can't.

What made me notice that is something called 'basic comprehension skill'.

I didn't mention BFR since you said you agreed he didn't resist the kind we were talking about so i don't get why you're bringing it up again.

Fair enough.

That's like saying Blob Arkham and Mundus are the same thing because one is a powerfull demon while the other is an even more powerfull demon, they both had very different ability and way to go about things.

It's the very reason it was brought up to begin with, it's not my fault if you picked up someone else's argument without paying attention to exactly why we were talking about it.

If that's what happen, why didn't you quote / link that directly ? it would be a much better proof.

If you think it wasn't what i was arguing for then we clearly got a missunderstanding here.

Honestly it doesn't even matter anymore at this point, the most important part was about Virgil using it to go from planete to planete and that was already solved.
 
@Dragomer

I did, I re-read everytime you say you said something just in case I might have missed it.I didn't contradict myself, only you said I did.

"if Virgil can open the portal from anywhere, he just slash in front of him and bam" Which he does multiple times.

Then you need to work on that if you can't comprehend why the Temenigru is important, the lore even tells you the why the Temenigru is needed and Vergil's motivation aka the Force Edge aka Sparda's power is heavily linked to it.

I was confused on what you were responding to with this "Nope, you didn't prove it, claiming you did isn't an argument.".

True but Yamato is said to be the cause of the portals being created and Balrog is the one who is using the shards to create the portals.Nothing implies this ability is unique to Balrog's use with the Yamato and Dante knowing that Yamato can create portals before knowing about Balrog using the shards proves this isn't something unique to Balrog's use of Yamato.

Better proof?Of Yamato creating portals?If that's the case then I posted it above.

Possibly, lay out your argument so I can get a proper understanding then.
 
I personally consider this a huge curbstomp in Goku's favor. Vergil's only win condition relies purely on Goku functioning at his worst cognitive level in the DB franchise.
 
Also this isn't really a stomp either as vergil has ways of winning via one hit from Yamoto, bfr, and resurrection.

Also how exactly does vergil's resurrection work?
 
If Goku can win by a kiai stare that seems pretty stompy

Yamato revives him, but due to the AP difference it probably won't work
 
I mean he could, Goku's never started with a kiai stare. I think he's more likely to just grab (with two hands like against Trunks in Dragon Ball Super, Not DBZ)/dodge the blade and then wallop Vergil to bits.
 
Blueblur24 said:
Also this isn't really a stomp either as vergil has ways of winning via one hit from Yamoto, bfr, and resurrection.
Also how exactly does vergil's resurrection work?
Click to expand...
Standard Battle Assumptions.

The universe are link as well as energy.

BFR would not work.

Goku has seen Goku Black cutting through space-time to create portal which If Goku has seen the move before thus it will not work again for him DB Manga 64/12 as well as Frieza with his Distructo Disk.

I would not like to be on Vergil Shose if he ressurects himself and gets kill agian by AP.
 
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