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Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

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Yes, it was. What's your point? The Vortex in the Calamity Abyss World in Evezeino and the Abyssal World aren't the same thing. It's hard to even argue with you, because you literally have no background knowledge of the story to begin with, so I need to thouroughly explain every single little point I make and it's tiresome. Your confidence in your statements are entirely unfounded.
Next time you make another accusations without proving your burden gonna Report you for making false accusations and trying to lie by removing the lines from the scans. I am pretty sure this type of behavior is not allowed.
 
What TF are you talking about now ? Elmide created the vortex it didn't existed in Eve Zenio. You literary cropped the scan just to claim vortex existed in Eve Zenio that's still a lie
Taken from the scans I posted above: Before long, it created a whirlpool of water currents and a whirlpool of magical power, and began to stir <Abyss of Craving>. The vortex that had only affected Nijiji interfered with the water flow and the magic field, and was finally reflected clearly in the demonic eye. The identity of what is shaking the bottom of the water with its tremendous power is -- craving. The people's hearts that have accumulated in this <Abyss of Craving> are violently swirling. Even in the depths of the world, it was not an ordinary power.
 
"According to the Order of the Silver Sea" doesn't imply that the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself is dependent on it. You're trying to emphasize a moot point.
Wtf??? So order of silver sea is not order, just a flowery language
"It's actually not that simple, but this is the basic principle of the Silver Sea's Order.
 
Bro what? Did you listen to yourself once? 😭
All that means is that the Silver Sea has an Order, not that the Silver Sea itself depends on said Order in order to survive. In the first place, the subject of the Silver Sea's Order to begin with is the Worlds in the Silver Sea, not the Silver Sea itself.
 
Taken from the scans I posted above: Before long, it created a whirlpool of water currents and a whirlpool of magical power, and began to stir <Abyss of Craving>. The vortex that had only affected Nijiji interfered with the water flow and the magic field, and was finally reflected clearly in the demonic eye. The identity of what is shaking the bottom of the water with its tremendous power is -- craving. The people's hearts that have accumulated in this <Abyss of Craving> are violently swirling. Even in the depths of the world, it was not an ordinary power.
Can I can report this guy right? He is again removing the lines from the scan and being a dishonest guy here.

He entirely removed this part
 The magic circle he drew gathered tremendous magical power.

" Vortex "

 Elmide mutters a word.
 
All that means is that the Silver Sea has an Order, not that the Silver Sea itself depends on said Order in order to survive. In the first place, the subject of the Silver Sea's Order to begin with is the Worlds in the Silver Sea, not the Silver Sea itself.
Basically all orders in maou gakuin are independent of the things they govern... Omg.... They were accepted as such in a previous thread.
 
Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/632/

The distant rumble that echoed from <Abyss of Craving> to the sky above Evezeino gave the illusion of a gigantic beast screaming. . .

Two fissures ran through the icy earth and spread to the sky. The influence of <Evil Eye of Chaos> extends beyond <Abyss of Craving>. The ear-splitting roar reminds me of the sound of something being out of place. <Calamity Abyss of Craving>, the bottom of the water is cut off along with the strata, and slowly released from the calamity world. "It's like a prelude to the collapse of the world." However, Evezeino barely manages to keep its original form. . .

"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
There should be no confusion now.
 
Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/632/

The distant rumble that echoed from <Abyss of Craving> to the sky above Evezeino gave the illusion of a gigantic beast screaming. . .

Two fissures ran through the icy earth and spread to the sky. The influence of <Evil Eye of Chaos> extends beyond <Abyss of Craving>. The ear-splitting roar reminds me of the sound of something being out of place. <Calamity Abyss of Craving>, the bottom of the water is cut off along with the strata, and slowly released from the calamity world. "It's like a prelude to the collapse of the world." However, Evezeino barely manages to keep its original form. . .

"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
There should be no confusion now.
Crazy way to concede that you don't have any proof to show Vortex existed in Eve Zenio.

My point still stands that vortex was created by Elmide Puppet not existed in Eve Zenio. Your scans literally states that.
 
Can I can report this guy right? He is again removing the lines from the scan and being a dishonest guy here.

He entirely removed this part
What do you mean removing lines? I'm posting parts throughout the chapter that is relevant to what I'm saying. Did you expect me to post the entire chapter itself or something? You not understanding why I posted what I did because you completely lack context of the story is entirely on you, not me.
 
What do you mean removing lines? I'm posting parts throughout the chapter that is relevant to what I'm saying. Did you expect me to post the entire chapter itself or something? You not understanding why I posted what I did because you completely lack context of the story is entirely on you, not me.
Removing Lines just so you can make up a lie isn't a good thing here. You tried to claim Vortex existed in Eve Zenio by lying and faking the scan.
 
Crazy way to concede that you don't have any proof to show Vortex existed in Eve Zenio.

My point still stands that vortex was created by Elmide Puppet not existed in Eve Zenio. Your scans literally states that.
This is getting completely ridiculous. You're entirely coping right now. How does this;

"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
not prove what I said? The Trick God is Elmide. That should be obvious enough.
 
Removing Lines just so you can make up a lie isn't a good thing here. You tried to claim Vortex existed in Eve Zenio by lying and faking the scan.
I'm pulling the scan directly from the chapter itself, not from some other source. Obviously some things would be removed, because otherwise I would be posting the entire chapter.
 
This is getting completely ridiculous. You're completely coping right now. How does this;

"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
not prove what I said? The Trick God is Elmide. That should be obvious enough.
"Vortex that the Trick God had Created "
Trick God = Elmide puppet. Yeah nice way to show your ignorance
This thread really became more toxic very fast. 💀
He keeps lying and removing important things from the scan.
 
"Vortex that the Trick God had Created "
Trick God = Elmide puppet. Yeah nice way to show your ignorance

He keeps lying and removing important things from the scan.
How does the Trick God being a puppet of Elmide disprove the point I made? What was even the point of making that distinction? All you're doing is trying to fight small battles that are completely irrelevant.
 
How does the Trick God being a puppet of Elmide disprove the point I made? What was even the point of making that distinction? All you're doing is trying to fight small battles that are completely irrelevant.
😃
First You claimed Abyssal World = Eve Zenio

Then when you couldn't prove that

You tried to argue Abyssal World and Eve zenio are different and vortex in eve zenio and Abyssal world are different where There was no vortex Existed in Eve Zenio Untill Elmide puppet created one.

You are the only one twisting words because you couldn't prove a single thing.
 
Bro removing lines to prove, what should I say..
You can't be serious. As I said, I'm taking my scans from the chapter itself, not from some other source and then removing lines I don't like. The lines I post are relevant to the point I'm making.

There should be more than enough evidence in the scans I posted that the Abyss Calamity World Evezeino and the Abyssal World aren't the same thing, and that the Vortex that Anos destroyed was Evezeino's.

You're choosing to act ignorant at this point.
 
You can't be serious. As I said, I'm taking my scans from the chapter itself, not from some other source and then removing lines I don't like. The lines I post are relevant to the point I'm making.
Removing the line just because your arguments can get accepted. That's still lying and deceiving others.
There should be more than enough evidence in the scans I posted that the Abyss Calamity World Evezeino and the Abyssal World aren't the same thing, and that the Vortex that Anos destroyed was Evezeino's.

You're choosing to act ignorant at this point.
There was no vortex in Eve Zenio stop lying. That Vortex was created by Elmide Puppet. Anos destroyed Elmide Puppet Vortex not Eve zenio one. As I said there was no vortex in Eve Zenio.
 
You can't be serious. As I said, I'm taking my scans from the chapter itself, not from some other source and then removing lines I don't like. The lines I post are relevant to the point I'm making.

There should be more than enough evidence in the scans I posted that the Abyss Calamity World Evezeino and the Abyssal World aren't the same thing, and that the Vortex that Anos destroyed was Evezeino's.

You're choosing to act ignorant at this point.
I am serious. Your act was dishonest. Does not matter how much you are going to excuse the action. You removed lines to backup an argument, thinking that people here won't notice it.

Not much I care but I am really wishing you luck passing the thread after first big mistake.
 
The entirety of the scans I posted:
Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/629/

The lion of Arzenon's destruction is <Abyss of Craving>, a phantom beast born from the abyss. If so, the bottom of the water must be near. . .

"If you're hungry, it's natural to eat your prey. But Evezeino isn't even hungry, but he's trying to eat Hyphoria.". . .

"This stupid puddle of craving is Eve Zeino's instinct. If Eve Zeino is crazy, there may be a trick in this abyss.". . .

In the abyss of the Calamity World, it is not clear why Nijiro, the order of the Holy Sword World, is working so clearly. . .

It is possible that now that the two silver bubbles are in contact with each other, they are affecting their respective worlds, but this is beyond speculation. . .

Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/630/

I've hypothesized that it's a weapon to invade the Abyssal World, but nothing is actually known yet. . . .

"There is almost no water flow at the bottom of the water." There is also the flow of magic power. However, only Nijiji was torn apart by some force, and was swirling at the bottom of <Abyss of Craving>. "Is it the work of a disaster?" Leowolf opened his mouth. “Is it hard to think?” Eife immediately denied it. "It's been a while since Evezeino joined Pablohetara's Academy Alliance. Because the disaster continued to sleep during that time.". . .

The bottom of the abyss has never been visited by anyone other than Isaac the Disaster. . .

"...Are you saying this?  The Calamity Abyss World Evezeino was manipulated by someone and devoured our holy sword world."

Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/631/

Before long, it created a whirlpool of water currents and a whirlpool of magical power, and began to stir <Abyss of Craving>. The vortex that had only affected Nijiji interfered with the water flow and the magic field, and was finally reflected clearly in the demonic eye. The identity of what is shaking the bottom of the water with its tremendous power is -- craving. The people's hearts that have accumulated in this <Abyss of Craving> are violently swirling. Even in the depths of the world, it was not an ordinary power.

Source: https://ncode.syosetu.com/n1578dx/632/

The distant rumble that echoed from <Abyss of Craving> to the sky above Evezeino gave the illusion of a gigantic beast screaming. . .

Two fissures ran through the icy earth and spread to the sky. The influence of <Evil Eye of Chaos> extends beyond <Abyss of Craving>. The ear-splitting roar reminds me of the sound of something being out of place. <Calamity Abyss of Craving>, the bottom of the water is cut off along with the strata, and slowly released from the calamity world. "It's like a prelude to the collapse of the world." However, Evezeino barely manages to keep its original form. . .

"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
For anyone else reading these scans, please come to your own conclusions given the information presented and the claim I'm making rather than blindly listening to the people claiming me as a dishonest liar.
 
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I forget to fix one sentence from you but it is not "removing lines that you don't like", it is "removing lines that my refute my premise entirely".
 
I am serious. Your act was dishonest. Does not matter how much you are going to excuse the action. You removed lines to backup an argument, thinking that people here won't notice it.

Not much I care but I am really wishing you luck passing the thread after first big mistake.
Again, what are you talking about? If I didn't remove any lines, I would have to post the entire chapter itself, and that would be a waste of space. I already gave my source if anyone wants to confirm it themselves. The only disconnect here is that the lines you believe that are relevant to my claims aren't the same as what I believe to be relevant. Who are you to decide what's relevant to my claim and what's not?
 
Both of you argue in the most dishonest manner possible. Instead of debunking my claims, you try to paint me as a liar so it comes off as my claims don't have any credibility to begin with. Obviously, neither of you have even read the story, so how do you constantly get off at trying to call me a liar?
 
Honestly, what is there to debunk here? Everything you claim has been used in the 3 previous threads and everything has been completely rejected, at least the other previous threads there was discussion with scans and proofs and still failed, the OP is nothing and you are just repeating the same and the same from almost 2 years ago without changing anything, the only thing that now there are more proofs and information that help our side and the most you can get is that the venuzdonoa AP can be reformulated. That is all.

@ImmortalDread , @EldemadeDityjon I suggest you stop debating and wait to see if Elizhaa or Crimson have anything to say. I honestly don't know how this has gotten this far using the same as the previous rejected threads.

@Antvasima all has been said here. Nothing more, just waiting for the staff you pinged b4.
 
Shortened Version:
Claim #1: The Calamity Abyss World Evezeino and the Abyssal World aren't the same thing

I've hypothesized that it's a weapon to invade the Abyssal World, but nothing is actually known yet. . . .

"There is almost no water flow at the bottom of the water." There is also the flow of magic power. However, only Nijiji was torn apart by some force, and was swirling at the bottom of <Abyss of Craving>. "Is it the work of a disaster?" Leowolf opened his mouth. “Is it hard to think?” Eife immediately denied it. "It's been a while since Evezeino joined Pablohetara's Academy Alliance. Because the disaster continued to sleep during that time.". . .

The bottom of the abyss has never been visited by anyone other than Isaac the Disaster. . .

"...Are you saying this?  The Calamity Abyss World Evezeino was manipulated by someone and devoured our holy sword world."

Claim #2: The Vortex is in the Calamity Abyss World Evezeino, not the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea


"The <Vortex> that the Trick God created in <The Abyss of Craving>. That is the cause of the madness of the Calamity World and its inhabitants' cravings.". . .

The Twisting God's <Vortex> that occurred in the <Abyss of Craving> had an effect on the order of Evezeino.
I've presented the information in a shortened version so that the claims I'm making are more apparent and easier to digest. However, the full scans themselves will provide much more context.
 
Honestly, what is there to debunk here? Everything you claim has been used in the 3 previous threads and everything has been completely rejected, at least the other previous threads there was discussion with scans and proofs and still failed, the OP is nothing and you are just repeating the same and the same from almost 2 years ago without changing anything, the only thing that now there are more proofs and information that help our side and the most you can get is that the venuzdonoa AP can be reformulated. That is all.

@ImmortalDread , @EldemadeDityjon I suggest you stop debating and wait to see if Elizhaa or Crimson have anything to say. I honestly don't know how this has gotten this far using the same as the previous rejected threads.

@Antvasima all has been said here. Nothing more, just waiting for the staff you pinged b4.
That's not even remotely true. In my initial posting, the first 3 points I've brought up were the ones that were "debunked". However, my main argument was the 4th point, and if the 4th point was true, then the first 3 points that were "debunked" immediately become relevant because they provide context. Then, people started to shift the arguments for Venuzdonoa in this thread, so I shifted my arguments as well. This isn't a case of "this has already been debunked before" as you claim. On top of that, you aren't the only three people in this thread. There are a few people who agree, and a few people who lean towards neutral as well. There is no reason for this thread to be unilaterally closed because you claim that everything has been debunked.
 
Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:
1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence
2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement
3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"
4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:
1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.
2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.
3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.
4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.
Once again, the state of this thread.
 
You have to prove how "SS characters (every character is "part" of the Silver Sea to begin with, as every World is part of the Silver Sea)" reversing the flow of Order via magic is equivalent to affecting the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself.
Lol, that's it. I'm done. Y'all can see this right? Affecting the flow of concepts, law, fate that govern all reality on several higher levels of type 1 concepts≠ affecting the silver sea.

If you don't know what order is why are you here?
Neither is it stated that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order either.
Maou Gakuin 101. Everything is dependent on Order. Do yourself a favour and go read chapter 484 let Eldemade bestow the wisdom of the gods unto your ignorant soul.
 
@Tatsumi504
:worried~2:
 
Lol, that's it. I'm done. Y'all can see this right? Affecting the flow of concepts, law, fate that govern all reality on several higher levels of type 1 concepts≠ affecting the silver sea.

If you don't know what order is why are you here?

Maou Gakuin 101. Everything is dependent on Order. Do yourself a favour and go read chapter 484 let Eldemade bestow the wisdom of the gods unto your ignorant soul.
Worlds are dependent on Order. What you're doing right now is equating Worlds to the Silver Sea itself. The Order of the Silver Sea that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep affect the Worlds in those layers, not the layers themselves. It has also never been stated to affected the layers either. That would be pure headcanon.
 
I tried but it didn't worked 🦆🦆🦆. His ignorance is beyond my capabilities.

Let's just stop he clearly don't know what he is saying. Let Elizha and crimson fallen evaluate
I have nothing more to say for now. I agree. I would much rather have a 3rd Party evaluate this thread than listen to you trying to paint me as a liar with no evidence whatsoever in order to make your argument seem better.
 
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