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Venom Profile Cleanup

WeeklyBattles said:
...Okay im going to assume your not caught up on Venom as a character or storyline from you sayig this. Captain Universe is 100000% the culmination of Eddie's current storyline, the last few years have had Eddie in a redemption arc for his past actions, the Uni-Power choosing him as the next Captain Universe as well as Mjolnir deeming him worthy are absolutely the culmination of this storyline
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im caught up. Had to be for venom vs crona last year, given the g1 blog
 
I am not going to repeat myself over and over and over. Please reread all of my posts above. However, we are definitely not going to release our safeguards that are there to prevent very unreliable scaling. Period.

My apologies, but you need to accept that, follow our standard conventions in this regard, and remove any keys for brief power-ups that are hard to scale properly.
 
Literally how this harms scaling?
You act like that many people scale to said Keys, and we literally have pages for stuff like this which is from 1 run, and in less then 20 issues
Being brief is not an argument here
 
Safeguards against what? Accurate indexing? At this point all those safeguards are doing more harm than good by barring entire major storylines from profiles, its lik barring keys for World War Hulk, meanwhile thre are characters like Red Skull having a key for Red Onslaught or two-moonstone Moonstone and we have character profiles for characters that have their entire comicbook runtime being less than the time that Legion has existed
 
i agree with Weekly on this, while Marvel scaling is and always will be a massive shitshow I think that the key for Captain Universe Venom should stay, if he gets powered down afterword a separate key should express that
 
Again we literally hav thousands of profiles whre characters have one-off powerups that they lose after using them, that isnt a reaso for not including thm

including them hurts litrally no one
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Again we literally hav thousands of profiles whre characters have one-off powerups that they lose after using them, that isnt a reaso for not including thm

including them hurts litrally no one
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To use an example from one of my favorite verses, Cole MacGrath had the RFI for one fight before saying his goodbyes and dying. Yet, he still has an RFI key. This isn't unprecedented.
 
The_Wright_Way said:
To use an example from one of my favorite verses, Cole MacGrath had the RFI for one fight before saying his goodbyes and dying. Yet, he still has an RFI key. This isn't unprecedented.
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Yeah thats exactly what i mean, characters like that hav forms lik that but only Marvel is barred from using them. Its literally like Ryuko who had her Kisaragi form for one fight and then lost it after said fight, i dont see why this is an issu
 
I mean, ignoring from what i understand is the culmination of a story arc because the power only lasted one issue is completely ignoring that entire culmination of the story arc, I don't think that is a very good reason to just ignore the power up
WeeklyBattles said:
Again we literally hav thousands of profiles whre characters have one-off powerups that they lose after using them, that isnt a reaso for not including thm

including them hurts litrally no one
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and using an example from one of my verses Xel'Naga Kerrigan in Starcraft only had said power up for the fight against Amon and then vanished from story right afterword
 
I think this idea of using one-off abilities and forms and even profiles shouldn't be allowed, this goes for all the examples mentioned above...
 
Newendigo said:
I think this idea of using one-off abilities and forms and even profiles shouldn't be allowed, this goes for all the examples mentioned above...
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That removes a TON of iconic forms from a lot of iconic characters my dude, I'm not sure you understand just how devastating that would be not only to apply, but to the overall quality of our profiles.
 
Sure, something like World War Hulk cab stay due to being iconic (albeit is also a form that Bruce could enter is a personality inside him).

But Red Onslaught seem like an example that has to be removed if its not iconic enough.
 
anyways if you have such an issue with that key of Venom then we have a few THOUSAND profiles to remove one-off power ups from, no matter how important to the story they are! and yes, that is precisely what we would have to do, like weekly said there are many profiles like this. and as Wright Way we can't just make an exception for Marvel on this matter cause otherwise we would have A LOT of CRTs to make.
 
I wish I had more to say about the codex scaling thing, I kind of fell off from Donny Cates' Venom after that Agent Venom cameo cause I forgot to keep reading it but IMO Venom keeping his codex key even if was appreantly temporary isn't that bad. It may have not been permanent but it doesn't really have any anti feats and the scaling for it is decent.
If the issue comes from potential scaling problems, how about a note on Venom's profile that says the codex powerup is no longer accessible by Venom so therefore anyone who fights Venom normally in the future shouldn't be used for scaling
 
The Green Scar/Worldbreaker incarnation of the Hulk lasted for several years, not just a few pages. He is significant enough to keep. However, given how hard it is to scale Marvel characters in a consistent manner even over long periods of time, given the extremely incoherent power levels (characters such as Thor recurrently tend to vary in power between 9-B and Low 1-A), we should definitely try to remove any statistics keys that are only based on very brief appearances, especially if they only lasted for a few pages and are only focusing on their most recent stories rather than their 60-80 years of history. It is called recentism by Wikipedia.

I mean, if we are going your path, we should at the very least feature statistics for the characters' early years as well, when they were far less powerful, and it seems too messy to me.
 
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The others want to scrap part of our safeguards against highly unreliable Marvel and DC Comics statistics by letting loose a torrent of single issue upgrades from across 80 years of history and a few hundred thousand comic book stories and several hundred writers that constantly contradict each other.

I try to tell them that in order to at least remotely reliably feature any Marvel and DC Comics statistics at all and not have them all scale to 1-A via the neverending "everybody can fight everybody" story convention of these verses, we need to use consistency, and as such strictly feature statistics from states of being that have lasted for very prolonged periods of time and can be somewhat reliably patterned in terms of power levels, but they want us to feature any recent upgrade that lasted for a few pages, regardless if the displayed power levels are consistent with our own ratings or not.
 
Planck69 said:
Is it possible to get a summary of what's currently being discussed?
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There's a debate occurring on if Venom should keep his codex key or not because apperantly after fighting Dark Carnage Venom no longer has it in the comics but some say that it is permanent, and there's also an issue of Venom also keeping or losing his Captain Universe key as well
 
I'm personally fine with the key but I'll see what the others think.

Though, I feel that the main issue seems to be scaling?
 
The Captain Universe power-up only lasted for a few pages, and Knull was not portrayed at anywhere near a 2-A scale in this story. We just rate him as that due to scaling to Galactus' greatest feat on his own. Also, Captain Universe is usually portrayed at a 4-B scale, and that is it. This is a serious inconsistency.

We should preferably remove the Red Onslaught key from the Red Skull for much the same reason as well.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Not exactly scaling as far I can tell, the codex form doesn't really have any anti feats but Ant's concern is allowing keys for forms which didn't last long I think?
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It is due to the long histories, enormous amount of appearances, and legions of different writers for the characters. We need consistent repeated patterns to scale from, and the profile pages are largely already exaggerated and unreliable enough as it is.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
There's a debate occurring on if Venom should keep his codex key or not because apperantly after fighting Dark Carnage Venom no longer has it in the comics but some say that it is permanent, and there's also an issue of Venom also keeping or losing his Captain Universe key as well
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If Venom's power-up was permanent, he can keep his post-codex key. The problem is if it also only lasted for a few pages, and the intended power level of the characters whose power he copied was of nowhere near this scale in this story.
 
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People, what Ant is trying to explain is that the key is part of a greater issue with Marvel where characters will randomly get one-off power ups based on the plot of the week, just for it to not be elaborated nor referenced again. With such a large history and continuity issues, that not many series share (so all the examples presented aren't exactly equivalent to it), allowing this instance would set a precedent that he wants to avoid.

While I don't agree 100% with it, at least I understand the greater issue.
 
I think the issue would present itself only for those characters that DO have that sheer amount of temporary power-ups. From what I understand the Venom stuff has only gotten crazy relatively recently, nevermind that he's a relatively new character compared to other Spidey villains
 
Armorchompy said:
I think the issue would present itself only for those characters that DO have that sheer amount of temporary power-ups. From what I understand the Venom stuff has only gotten crazy relatively recently, nevermind that he's a relatively new character compared to other Spidey villains
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That I can't argue for nor against, since I don't follow recent comics. Just explaining a bit what I get is Ant's position.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
People, what Ant is trying to explain is that the key is part of a greater issue with Marvel where characters will randomly get one-off power ups based on the plot of the week, just for it to not be elaborated nor referenced again. With such a large history and continuity issues, that not many series share (so all the examples presented aren't exactly equivalent to it), allowing this instance would set a precedent that he wants to avoid.
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That is part of my issues with this, yes, in addition to that the sheer inconsistencies of the individual power levels from story to story, combined with the "everybody can fight everybody" fundamental principle of this verse, makes accurately scaling brief power-ups near impossible. We should stick to only scaling characters that we can find a coherent pattern from over many appearances for good reasons.

Other Marvel and DC statistics keys derived from very brief power-ups or similar should also be removed.

As I have tried to explain to exhaustion over the years, Marvel and DC Comics do not work like other franchises (with the likely exception of Doctor Who), due to the sheer number of writers, who constantly contradict each other and even themselves.

I am not repeating this over and over to be mean, but rather because I want our wiki to at least try to not let the chain-scaling turn the character profile pages completely unreliable with extremely inflated statistics. My main objective with this wiki is striving for accuracy after all.
 
I think this is more of a recency bias issue rather than some new issue. It wouldn't take a long time to find examples in every era where someone got some one note power up for an arc that made them Tier 2 or 1, only to lose it right after said arc.

On one hand the keys are usual legitimate for that specific power up. Most people are 4-B when amped or Low 1-C, or Tier 2, or whatever. But we shouldn't just knee jerk add a key for someone every time it happens or we'll start to run into large issues.

I say just put up a restriction on keys and we allow them if needed for scaling or if someone can prove that they're big enough to be included. As an example Red and Blue Superman lasted for multiple years and has call backs still. Including that as a key is fine. Batman on Metron's chair however, only appeared in like one arc and he didn't use it much so that shouldn't be a key.
 
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