Uzui Tengen vs Santana (Demon Slayer vs Jojo)

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I've updated Tengen's weapon description, so that it is more accurate about the effects of Nichirin swords in accordance with this revision.

Does this affect the match at all or should I go ahead and add the match?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Does this affect the match at all or should I go ahead and add the match?

It honestly depends on whether or not it changes the opinions of anyone who already voted or if anyone can make an argument that Santana won't just win here out of that but it does clarify that Tengen's weapon doesn't just negate Regeneration and that Santana's Immortality Type 2 won't save him from the effects of Nichirin swords.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It honestly depends on whether or not it changes the opinions of anyone who already voted or if anyone can make an argument that Santana won't just win here out of that but it does clarify that Tengen's weapon doesn't just negate Regeneration and that Santana's Immortality Type 2 won't save him from the effects of Nichirin swords.

Well santana will just be petrified at whatever place he is struck at by the sun blade however he can still regenerate from that. Tengen also can't resist his acid very well so it's unlikely he will outlast.

 

[Chariot190]

Ichirin blade ******* with type 2 doesn't help as the reason it ***** with type 2 isn't even applicable to pillar men directly.

Would **** vampires tho.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well santana will just be petrified at whatever place he is struck at by the sun blade however he can still regenerate from that. Tengen also can't resist his acid very well so it's unlikely he will outlast.

Santana's acid works via contact and Tengen isn't just going to let him do that. Tengen has also undergone an Extrasensory Perception revision that will allow him to instantly understand that Santana is a lot stronger than what he is used to. I'd also like to note that Tengen is used to fighting an opponent that can regenerate since all demons do that.

Ichirin blade ******* with type 2 doesn't help as the reason it ***** with type 2 isn't even applicable to pillar men directly.

Would **** vampires tho.

Well, Santana will turn to stone upon being decapitated and will actually still be alive like that. That being said, if Santana gets decapitated his head and body will entirely turn to stone though it probably will be a fair bit slower than the disintegration of the demons since he can stand in the sun for a little bit.

 

[Chariot190]

Some of that helps but in the long run not so much, especially when no matter what the case is, he HAS to enter Santana's range to use his ichirin, this isn't subject to debate. Chained Katana or not, he's forced to enter Santana's range (which should be 317cm at least iirc), and Santana is edging him even if barely, that also doesn't help with the fact Santana can stretch himself open to engulf foes and such making dodging extremely difficult. There's also the fact that any parts that are removed from Santana, whether unintentionally or on purpose, can be manually controlled, stretched and move as if they have a mind of their own. We see this above in one of the panels I posted actually, a bunch of Santana chunks attack his foes, restraining them and pinning them down, almost like a symbiote, to further that, Santana confirms that he can acid manip with those disembodied chunks of flesh. Dodging Santana is one thing but could he dodge a bunch of bits coming from all directions plus Santana himself? That I'm not so sure.

Santana might need direct contact, but he can do that easily, as he himself doesn't have to do, just a part of him. But even then dodging him might be difficult anyhow.

To further the Nichirin point, don't forget Santana can make his skin elastic to make blades far less effective and in some cases unable to break his skin.

And the amount of UV light needed to be an actual threat is beyond that of sunlight, you'd need military grade lights to petrify him in any reasonable speed, sunlight tier light's petrification is pretty slow and not at all permanent. They have to keep Santana under military grade UV lights from all directions to keep him incap'd in a military foundation, even then they have to be careful, as even as stone he's alive and can still attack (as we see with Wham, if you get to close) and his acid manip is still active as stone, we see this with Santana himself actually, they tossed a snake into Santana's enclosure and the snake touched the stone Santana and turned to stone itself and was absorbed.

While it's true he has experience with Regen foes, it's also true none are like that of Santana and that discrepancy could **** him over if he isn't smart. It's also true Santana has experience with sunlight energy foes as well.

As I said, this doesn't seem that fair to Uzui but at this point we're to deep in to back pedal. Santana making his skin rubber is just the final oof imo.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I will hold off adding the match until everyone reaches a consensus.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Some of that helps but in the long run not so much, especially when no matter what the case is, he HAS to enter Santana's range to use his ichirin, this isn't subject to debate. Chained Katana or not, he's forced to enter Santana's range (which should be 317cm at least iirc), and Santana is edging him even if barely, that also doesn't help with the fact Santana can stretch himself open to engulf foes and such making dodging extremely difficult. There's also the fact that any parts that are removed from Santana, whether unintentionally or on purpose, can be manually controlled, stretched and move as if they have a mind of their own. We see this above in one of the panels I posted actually, a bunch of Santana chunks attack his foes, restraining them and pinning them down, almost like a symbiote, to further that, Santana confirms that he can acid manip with those disembodied chunks of flesh. Dodging Santana is one thing but could he dodge a bunch of bits coming from all directions plus Santana himself? That I'm not so sure.

And the amount of UV light needed to be an actual threat is beyond that of sunlight, you'd need military grade lights to petrify him in any reasonable speed, sunlight tier light's petrification is pretty slow and not at all permanent. They have to keep Santana under military grade UV lights from all directions to keep him incap'd in a military foundation, even then they have to be careful, as even as stone he's alive and can still attack (as we see with Wham, if you get to close) and his acid manip is still active as stone, we see this with Santana himself actually, they tossed a snake into Santana's enclosure and the snake touched the stone Santana and turned to stone itself and was absorbed.

While it's true he has experience with Regen foes, it's also true none are like that of Santana and that discrepancy could **** him over if he isn't smart. It's also true Santana has experience with sunlight energy foes as well.

You previously said that Santana's rib blades are 130 cm long, so where does the 317 cm come from? Santana using separated parts of himself really depends on whether or not Santana can just separate these parts from his body on his own since any parts that are cut off by a Nichirin sword will turn to stone and I'm not sure if Tengen's explosions can blast parts of Santana off since Santana's durability is above their Attack Potency.

Santana was ultimately defeated by Joseph using the sunlight that directly shined into the well and the sunlight that was reflected from the water of the well and Santana did in fact try to find refuge from the sunlight in the well, so sunlight is in fact enough provided it either covers him from multiple angles or he is exposed to it long enough and since the Nichirin swords' effect would spread throughout his entire body upon decapitation it should do the job.

Tengen has quite a bit of experience and has displayed tactical intelligence in the series, so him not acting smart is not going to be an issue, he would also be able to tell that Santana is different from the demons he is used to facing due to his Extrasensory Perception. Santana only ever faced one opponent who had sunlight energy and that is Joseph and his case is quite different from Nichirin swords, so Santana won't exactly be able to see that coming in advance.

 

[StekFence]

Nichirin sword will turn to stone

He could excise the stone from his chunks tho, and then keep attacking

 

[Nehz_XZX]

He could excise the stone from his chunks tho, and then keep attacking

The chunks would turn to stone in their entirety. There would be no unpetrified parts of the chunks left at the end of the petrification process.

 

[Chariot190]

I said rib blades, he can still stretch himself like double his height, parts himself several fold, and that's atop the rib blades, so slap 130cm on whatever his stretchiness would allow.

Santana using separated parts of himself really depends on whether or not Santana can just separate these parts from his body on his own

Yeah? Technically even characters like Dio can do that, to a far lesser degree minus the stretch and acid. Santana is capable of manually ripping pieces off, tearing his own body and so on at a whim, we see this with other Pillar Men too (they can even have their bodies split apart and even reform to avoid attacks).

since any parts that are cut off by a Nichirin sword will turn to stone

So? The pieces turn to stone still have acid manip, and if the potency of the light is only that of the sun, it won't be permanent.

and I'm not sure if Tengen's explosions can blast parts of Santana off since Santana's durability is above their Attack Potency.

I'm assuming they could because if they can't, why would we assume his blade can damage him either? Them being powered by sunlight doesn't let them bypass his durability inherently, we learn this with Joseph.

Santana was ultimately defeated by Joseph using the sunlight that directly shined into the well and the sunlight that was reflected from the water of the well

Yes, your point? Don't act like he couldn't stand in the sun directly for a length of time and still act, because he can and did, the reflected sunlight bouncing off the water in a well is portrayed as being above that of normal sunlight due to the reflection. This is a consistent thing part 2 does, Caesar's bubbles reflecting sunlight amplifies it drastically and I don't think I need to bring up Aja which can turn natural sunlight into a laser beam via reflection (literally a million x amp) That's just how Araki do. Don't feign the context of the scene and the established norms portrayed in the part.

and Santana did in fact tried to find refuge from the sunlight in the well,

Well yeah no shit, he's still gonna turn to stone eventually. Why would he not want to get out of the sun? Doesn't mean he can't still act for awhile given we see him do literally that.

so sunlight is in fact enough provided it either covers him from multiple angles or he is exposed to it long enough

Literally standing in broad daylight just slowly turns him to stone and he can still act and the like. UV lights on par with military grade shit can instantly turn to stone, UV on par with Normal sunlight is a slow process, reflected light is faster but that's just how reflection of sunlight works, it amplifies it.

and since the Nichirin swords effect would spread throughout his entire body upon decapitation it should do the job.

If it can even decap him, which I highly doubt. And then what? He's fine a few minutes later. Unless you're going to argue that the sunlight energy is permanent and will never go away, fade, diminish or expel, in which case I'm gonna need to see scans of that.

Tengen has quite a bit of experience and has displayed tactical intelligence in the series

Cool? This matters why exactly? This isn't at all an advantage when it comes to ancient caveman super genius who's going to pick up and dissect the majority of what he does.

so him not acting smart is not going to be an issue.

You seemed to have misunderstood me, when I said that I was more referring to how his knowledge on demons and how they work could work against him, Santana works completely differently, if his former bias and experience effects how he goes about Santana and he tries to exploit demon weaknesses against him, he could very well **** himself over or get himself killed, things that work on demons don't work on Santana 1:1, some things that could be an instant kill wouldnt be enough to stop Santana from retaliation or countering back. Uzui's experience and knowledge can easily skew what he does and backfire, is what I meant.

Santana's only opponent who had sunlight energy is Joseph and his case is quite different from Nichirin swords

You can literally charge it amplify objects with Hamon, Joseph did this, Santana seen him do this. Santana should be aware that this is a possibility that could occur, especially because while he didn't see it happened, he knows the mechanics of Hamon and Hamon can and has been used to be channeled through a sword before. Super genius cave man could probably deduce "oh sunlight energy could very well be used on a blade".

You also ignored several points. Like for starters, the fact he can make blades weaponry far less effective.

The chunks would turn to stone in their entirety. There would be no unpetrified parts of the chunks left at the end of the petrification process.

And why not? The energy still has to spread, if he can remove the stone chunks and the parts the energy is at before it spreads further, where exactly is the issue? It'd be like cutting off a poisoned wound before that poison can spread further. Even vampires can do this against the similar Hamon, hell Dio literally chops his own head off to avoid his head being effected by Hamon as we was fast enough to do so before the Hamon spread through the whole body. Something like this is a critical plot point.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I said rib blades, he can still stretch himself like double his height, parts himself several fold, and that's atop the rib blades, so slap 130cm on whatever his stretchiness would allow.

Yeah? Technically even characters like Dio can do that, to a far lesser degree minus the stretch and acid. Santana is capable of manually ripping pieces off, tearing his own body and so on at a whim, we see this with other Pillar Men too (they can even have their bodies split apart and even reform to avoid attacks).

So? The pieces turn to stone still have acid manip, and if the potency of the light is only that of the sun, it won't be permanent.

I'm assuming they could because if they can't, why would we assume his blade can damage him either? Them being powered by sunlight doesn't let them bypass his durability inherently, we learn this with Joseph.

Yes, your point? Don't act like he couldn't stand in the sun directly for a length of time and still act, because he can and did, the reflected sunlight bouncing off the water in a well is portrayed as being above that of normal sunlight due to the reflection. This is a consistent thing part 2 does, Caesar's bubbles reflecting sunlight amplifies it drastically and I don't think I need to bring up Aja which can turn natural sunlight into a laser beam via reflection (literally a million x amp) That's just how Araki do. Don't feign the context of the scene and the established norms portrayed in the part.

Well yeah no shit, he's still gonna turn to stone eventually. Why would he not want to get out of the sun? Doesn't mean he can't still act for awhile given we see him do literally that.

Literally standing in broad daylight just slowly turns him to stone and he can still act and the like. UV lights on par with military grade shit can instantly turn to stone, UV on par with Normal sunlight is a slow process, reflected light is faster but that's just how reflection of sunlight works, it amplifies it.

If it can even decap him, which I highly doubt. And then what? He's fine a few minutes later. Unless you're going to argue that the sunlight energy is permanent and will never go away, fade, diminish or expel, in which case I'm gonna need to see scans of that.

Cool? This matters why exactly? This isn't at all an advantage when it comes to ancient caveman super genius who's going to pick up and dissect the majority of what he does.

You seemed to have misunderstood me, when I said that I was more referring to how his knowledge on demons and how they work could work against him, Santana works completely differently, if his former bias and experience effects how he goes about Santana and he tries to exploit demon weaknesses against him, he could very well **** himself over or get himself killed, things that work on demons don't work on Santana 1:1, some things that could be an instant kill wouldnt be enough to stop Santana from retaliation or countering back. Uzui's experience and knowledge can easily skew what he does and backfire, is what I meant.

You can literally charge it amplify objects with Hamon, Joseph did this, Santana seen him do this. Santana should be aware that this is a possibility that could occur, especially because while he didn't see it happened, he knows the mechanics of Hamon and Hamon can and has been used to be channeled through a sword before. Super genius cave man could probably deduce "oh sunlight energy could very well be used on a blade".

You also ignored several points. Like for starters, the fact he can make blades weaponry far less effective.

And why not? The energy still has to spread, if he can remove the stone chunks and the parts the energy is at before it spreads further, where exactly is the issue? It'd be like cutting off a poisoned wound before that poison can spread further. Even vampires can do this against the similar Hamon, hell Dio literally chops his own head off to avoid his head being effected by Hamon as we was fast enough to do so before the Hamon spread through the whole body. Something like this is a critical plot point.

Okay, that's indeed good for Santana's range though whatever parts he stretches to attack Tengen will be in Tengen's range of attack and therefore be vulnerable to his Nichirin swords.

I recall the Pillar Men contorting their body form for dodging but did they use their Body Control to have a piece of their body separate in the series? Simply ripping pieces out with his hands doesn't seem practical in the middle of fighting.

The acid would apply but how fast can Santana recover from being petrified?

That would be because of the lower surface area a blade covers compared to an explosion. Something that can tank an explosion can still take damage from a sharp edge that's driven into it with energy equivalent to the explosion, so assuming that the explosions can damage everything the blades can would be fallacious. Santana is three times stronger, so the question is if an explosion can deal enough damage for pieces of Santana to separate from him when that sort of difference exists.

I did say that it would take time and that the Nichirin swords' effects would probably be slower for him than it would be for demons which is something that I did in fact mention in an earlier comment. I would also like it if you don't accuse me of feigning something purely because I'm pointing things out that as far as I'm aware aren't quite in line with what you argued. To just assume that I'm arguing in bad faith will just make things more tedious for both of us. Was it stated that reflection makes the sunlight more effective? If so, then I'd like to see that if you don't mind.

Didn't he instantly go with Joseph into the well? Sounds like as if he didn't think as if he should stay in the sun too long though he did show that he can act for a while under the influence of the sunlight which isn't something I denied.

I had the impression that Santana was petrified due to being exposed to sunlight on his front and back simultaneously though if it's specifically due to sunlight being reflected, then I'd like it if I can have that cleared up.

I never argued that Tengen would just outright outsmart Santana. My point is that Tengen isn't going to act incompetently. Whether or not that's enough for him to win is a different matter.

While Tengen will probably think of Santana as a demon his Extrasensory Perception can differentiate humans and demons, so he will pick up on the fact that Santana is different pretty much instantly. That isn't going to give any knowledge beyond Santana being different but it will be enough to make him somewhat wary and while Santana will do things that Tengen won't expect he is still vulnerable enough to sunlight for Tengen's Nichirin blades to be usable if he can cut Santana. Also, while decapitation is pretty much an instant kill with most demons some demons actually persist for a short while while disintegrating and try to land some attacks on the demon slayer who decapitated them, so that's not going to be too much of a surprise for Tengen but he will have to wait until Santana is completely petrified for a good bit longer than he is used to.

While Santana could probably think of the idea that someone could use Hamon with a sword he isn't necessarily going to expect a random swordsman he encounters to have Hamon and Tengen does indeed not have Hamon, so unless he mistakes Tengen's Total Concentration Breathing for Hamon he won't suddenly think that Tengen's blades contain sunlight. Him figuring that out during the battle is perfectly valid though and I don't think that this would be hard for him.

The points I've "ignored" are the points which I consider to be perfectly valid. I haven't voted for Tengen nor am I even arguing that he is winning. I'm merely responding to the points that are either wrong or partially incorrect based on what I know.

That's indeed what you would usually think especially if you are thinking of Hamon but Nichirin swords do not exactly work like Hamon. The thing is that the disintegration that Nichirin swords cause demons to undergo when they are beheaded with them doesn't just spread from the cut neck. The entire body disintegrates, so a demon's hands, feet, back or forehead might end up disintegrating before the disintegration can spread from the neck region to those areas, so no, you can't escape the effect by cutting parts off. Once it it is cut off there is no saving it from the effect. That's at the very least what I can tell to be the case from how the disintegration is visually depicted in the series.

PS: Chariot190, is it just my imagination or are you being a bit aggressive here? I'd honestly prefer it if you were just helpfully presenting your position like you did in that thread of mine back then.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

PS: Chariot190, is it just my imagination or are you being a bit aggressive here? I'd honestly prefer it if you were just helpfully presenting your position like you did in that thread of mine back then

Nah he is not, thats the way he debating (sound lowkey aggresive but actually not)
In fact this is a quite well debate

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Nah he is not, thats the way he debating (sound lowkey aggresive but actually not)
In fact this is a quite well debate

Is that so? I wonder if that is because we are discussing over a written medium where you cannot use body language or the tone of your voice to convey that you aren't actually being aggressive.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Its former i think, Chariot isn't that aggresive until someone get on his nerves

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Its former i think, Chariot isn't that aggresive until someone get on his nerves

Okay?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Why doubting? Then again i'm just want to clear this up considering you're pointing on Chariot outta nowhere

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Why doubting? Then again i'm just want to clear this up considering you're pointing on Chariot outta nowhere

I'm just a bit confused but I do think that I somewhat understand what you mean now. I don't think that I was pointing out aggressiveness out of nowhere considering you yourself admitted that he is low key aggressive and his word choice.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

(sound lowkey aggresive but actually not)

You mean this, right? Nope, i'm not admittng it iirc
What i mean is from the way he commented and seen by us he sound lowkey aggresive but he's not and commented here without any intention

Anyway lets stop here, we're just clustering at this point

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You mean this, right? Nope, i'm not admittng it iirc
What i mean is from the way he commented and seen by us he sound lowkey aggresive but he's not and commented here without any intention

Anyway lets stop here, we're just clustering at this point

Okay, I've sort of worded that wrong. You've admitted that he sounds lowkey aggressive, so my impression doesn't come from nowhere.

Sure.

 

[Armorchompy]

Tengen could resist acid manip but can he resist acid that could break down dudes on a cellular level? That's pretty potent acid manip if you ask me.

I think that's like, all acid. Still should hurt Tengen just by comparing the showings but still.

Anyway, would Nichirin Blades even work? Pillar Men are kinda weird because exposure to sunlight just petrifies them, but Hamon kills them.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think that's like, all acid. Still should hurt Tengen just by comparing the showings but still.

Anyway, would Nichirin Blades even work? Pillar Men are kinda weird because exposure to sunlight just petrifies them, but Hamon kills them.

Nichirin Blades contain sunlight, so Pillar Men should react to it the same way as they do to when they stand in the sunlight. Once they are decapitated with it their bodies should turn to stone and should the petrification need to be faster than they can just get additional slashes for the process to be acceleratd. Any and all pieces and limbs that get cut off by the Nichirin Blades would also petrify.

 

[Armorchompy]

They would temporarily be petrified, but Pillar Men return to their normal self during the night, as I recall. Which in this case would mean that the second the blade is removed its effects would begin to go away.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

They would temporarily be petrified, but Pillar Men return to their normal self during the night, as I recall. Which in this case would mean that the second the blade is removed its effects would begin to go away.

How long do they need to undo the petrification though? Santana was shown to be petrifying while exposed to sunlight and other than that we have only the Pillar Men having been petrified before they wake up and they were in that state for around 2000 years since the time of the roman empire.

 

[Armorchompy]

How long do they need to undo the petrification though? Santana was shown to be petrifying while exposed to sunlight and other than that we have only the Pillar Men being petrified before they wake up and they've been in that state for around 2000 years since the time of the roman empire.

I mean, they willingly put themselves in that state, not to mention that the place in which they were petrified wasn't exposed to sunlight to begin with. And from how Speedwagon's scientists put it, it seems to be at least somewhat combat applicable. Nevermind that Nichirin Blades are probably weaker than exposure to sunlight to begin with, given that several demons have survived limited exposure to them while even Muzan would be one-shot by the sun in his normal state.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I mean, they willingly put themselves in that state, not to mention that the place in which they were petrified wasn't exposed to sunlight to begin with. And from how Speedwagon's scientists put it, it seems to be at least somewhat combat applicable. Nevermind that Nichirin Blades are probably weaker than exposure to sunlight to begin with, given that several demons have survived limited exposure to them while even Muzan would be one-shot by the sun in his normal state.

The Jojowiki says that Santana needed to rest as a statue due to using too much power and the same seems to apply to Kars, Esidisi and Wamuu based on what the history page for Kars says which does explain why they did it in the first place. That's usually because they either have an ability that allows them to survive the decapitation provided certain conditions are fulfilled or they outright adapted away the weakness against decapitation through Nichirin swords in the cases of Akaza, Kokushibo and Muzan. Pillar Men have none of these things other than the fact that they can live as statues and eventually return from that state.

 

[Armorchompy]

The Jojowiki says that Santana needed to rest as a statue due to using too much power and the same seems to apply to Kars, Esidisi and Wamuu based on what the history page for Kars says which does explain why they did it in the first place.

Yeah, but that's not related to this at all.

That's usually because they either have an ability that allows them to survive the decapitation provided certain conditions are fulfilled or they outright adapted away the weakness against decapitation through Nichirin swords in the cases of Akaza, Kokushibo and Muzan.

Yeah, and Nichirin swords work through sunlight, but they still can't survive normal sunlight, so the implication is that it's not as effective as sunlight.

Pillar Men have none of these things other than the fact that they can live as statues and eventually return from that state.

Yeah, but real sunlight doesn't kill them.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yeah, but that's not related to this at all.

Yeah, and Nichirin swords work through sunlight, but they still can't survive normal sunlight, so the implication is that it's not as effective as sunlight.

Yeah, but real sunlight doesn't kill them.

Well, you said that they did it willingly but this doesn't seem to have been entirely voluntary on their part since it seems as if it had been circumstances that forced them into that state which means that it is possible to push them into such circumstances. Kars, Esidisi and Wamuu had to face Hamon users but Santana didn't even encounter one before his hibernation since he was surprised by Joseph's Hamon.

It's not as effective in the sense that it isn't all over their body. All demons can survive getting limbs cut off by a Nichirin sword but the limbs will disintegrate. In the case of demons who developed abilities and resistances against Nichirin swords it's indeed less effective compared to sunlight but Pillar Men don't have access to these adaptations, so I don't think that this would make a difference for them.

I didn't say that it kills them. What I mean is that upon decapitation the Nichirin blades would have the same effect as sunlight on them which is petrification. This petrification will start on various spots on their bodies and shouldn't stop until they got fully petrified. The process would probably be slower than with demons though since they can stand in the sun for a bit.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not as effective in the sense that it isn't all over their body. All demons can survive getting limbs cut off by a Nichirin sword but the limbs will disintegrate. In the case of demons who developed abilities and resistances against Nichirin swords it's indeed less effective compared to sunlight but Pillar Men don't have access to these adaptations, so I don't think that this would make a difference for them.

My point is that even with the adaptations against Nichirin swords, they cannot do anything against sunlight. So, if Pillar Men resist sunlight to a minor degree, then clearly they would be affected even less by the swords, which are provably inferior to sunlight.

I didn't say that it kills them. What I mean is that upon decapitation the Nichirin blades would have the same effect as sunlight on them which is petrification.

Yeah, but the petrification isn't permanent and wouldn't spread to the rest of the bodies, if anything it would just go across the wound, and considering that the SPW foundation needs to keep UV lights on Santana at all times, then clearly slashing through them wouldn't do anything permanent.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

My point is that even with the adaptations against Nichirin swords, they cannot do anything against sunlight. So, if Pillar Men resist sunlight to a minor degree, then clearly they would be affected even less by the swords, which are provably inferior to sunlight.

Yeah, but the petrification isn't permanent and wouldn't spread to the rest of the bodies, if anything it would just go across the wound, and considering that the SPW foundation needs to keep UV lights on Santana at all times, then clearly slashing through them wouldn't do anything permanent.

Well, in the case of the demons who have abilities that allow them to circumvent death in the case of a decapitation through Nichirin swords they can still be killed in that way under the right conditions and the demons who developed resistances are the absolute strongest of the demons who had centuries worth of time to get to the point where they got where they could attain these resistances. Having abilities and resistances that help you survive the decapitation is something only the strongest of demons are capable of and they are the ones who constantly deal with demon slayers while Joseph is as far as we are aware the only person who could use sunlight for his attacks against Santana that Santana encountered. The effects of a Nichirin sword upon decapitation are identical to what happens when demons are exposed to sunlight with the only occasional difference being the speed at which it happens, so Pillar Men are just going to petrify slower than demons disintegrate.

The thing is though that the disintegration of demons upon decapitation goes across their whole body and they don't just start disintegrating at the neck wound. You can visually see spots where they disintegrate all over their body. Anything less than that wouldn't kill demons since they all have Immortality Type 2 with some of them displaying the ability to detach parts of their bodies at will. We've already both agreed earlier that it isn't permanent, so there is no need to reiterate that as if I forgot it unless you want to use it to illustrate another point.

 

[Armorchompy]

the demons who developed resistances are the absolute strongest of the demons who had centuries worth of time to get to the point where they got where they could attain these resistances.

Ok? And they still have inferior resistance to sunlight compared to the Pillar Men.

so Pillar Men are just going to petrify slower than demons disintegrate.

Yeah, but not to a significant degree.

The thing is though that the disintegration of demons upon decapitation goes across their whole body and they don't just start disintegrating at the neck wound.

That's because the neck is a weak spot, Santana doesn't have that.

You can visually see spots where they disintegrate all over their body. Anything less than that wouldn't kill demons since they all have Immortality Type 2 with some of them displaying the ability to detach parts of their bodies at will. We've already both agreed earlier that it isn't permanent, so there is no need to reiterate that as if I forgot it unless you want to use it to illustrate another point.

If it's not permanent then Tengen has no wincons

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Ok? And they still have inferior resistance to sunlight compared to the Pillar Men.

Yeah, but not to a significant degree.

That's because the neck is a weak spot, Santana doesn't have that.

If it's not permanent then Tengen has no wincons

Demons other than Nezuko don't have resistance against sunlight. That's a really important plot point. They have at most just resistances against decapitation through Nichirin swords.

And why shouldn't their whole body be affected? The effects of Nichirin swords affect the entire body upon decapitation in the case of demons, so there isn't a reason to assume that this isn't the case for Pillar Men. Do you want to argue that their increased resistance against sunlight somehow limits the areas of their body that are affected?

Without Nichirin swords a demon's neck wouldn't even be a weak spot to begin with since most demons can't even kill each other due to their regeneration. I'm also pretty sure that we index this as a property of the Nichirin swords instead of a weakness of demons on the profiles, so if that is how you want this to be you should probably make a thread to have this changed accordingly.

That depends on just how fast Santana can recover from petrification. It doesn't appear to be instant and Tengen can always just continue slashing him if he notices him undoing the petrification. If he can keep that up until sunrise, then the sun will keep Santana petrified for Tengen. Just doing the slashing like that should be a lot less taxing for Tengen than intense fighting for hours and months of training that puts him on the verge of death.

 

[Armorchompy]

Demons other than Nezuko don't have resistance against sunlight. That's a really important plot point. They have at most just resistances against decapitation through Nichirin swords.

Yeah, and Nichirin swords work via sunlight that they've absorbed. So why would someone resisting sunlight not be able to resist them?

And why shouldn't their whole body be affected? The effects of Nichirin swords affect the entire body upon decapitation in the case of demons, so there isn't a reason to assume that this isn't the case for Pillar Men.

Other way around, demons explicitly have a weak spot in their necks, pillar men do not. Hell, demons provably don't have their entire body affected when their explicit weak point isn't cut, so why would Pillar Men be different.

Without Nichirin swords a demon's neck wouldn't even be a weak spot to begin with since most demons can't even kill each other due to their regeneration.

... The fact that you need regen neg to affect doesn't mean it's not a weak spot. They explicitly call it one, even.

I'm also pretty sure that we index this as a property of the Nichirin swords instead of as a weakness of demons on the profiles, so if that is how you want this to be you should probably make a thread to have this changed accordingly.

We don't really list it as either.

If he can keep that up until sunrise, then the sun will keep Santana petrified for Tengen.

Yeah, for 12-ish hours, which isn't enough for an incap.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yeah, and Nichirin swords work via sunlight that they've absorbed. So why would someone resisting sunlight not be able to resist them?

Other way around, demons explicitly have a weak spot in their necks, pillar men do not. Hell, demons provably don't have their entire body affected when their explicit weak point isn't cut, so why would Pillar Men be different.

... The fact that you need regen neg to affect doesn't mean it's not a weak spot. They explicitly call it one, even.

We don't really list it as either.

Yeah, for 12-ish hours, which isn't enough for an incap.

So, now you want to argue that they would have the adaption against decapitation through Nichirin swords without having ever encountered Nichirin swords through a higher resistance to sunlight?

That's not the way the profiles say it, so you would need a revision for that if you ask me. Likewise, it's a weak spot because of Nichirin swords. Nothing else makes them weak spots. They have their whole bodies affected when the neck is cut and that's enough.

I wouldn't classify Nichirin swords as Regeneration Negation really. They just cause you to undergo the effects that sunlight would have on you. I went through a revision to have that wording changed. Check out Tengen's weapon description if you don't believe me. You can also go to a demon's profile to check whether or not it is even mentioned as a weakness.

The description for Nichirin swords on all of the profiles where they are listed as equipment actually mention their property of causing complete desintegration to demons via decapitation, so technically that's what it is listed as.

12 hours where Santana is pretty much defenseless and Tengen can take his time to rest and slash at Santana as much as he wants and see if he can try anything else. Santana doesn't have infinite stamina unlike demons, so at some point he'll reach the point where he'll need a 2000 years long hibernation.

 

[Armorchompy]

So, now you want to argue that they would have the adaption against decapitation through Nichirin swords without having ever encountered Nichirin swords through a higher resistance to sunlight?

Yeah, because Nichirin swords work via sunlight.

Likewise, it's a weak spot because of Nichirin swords. Nothing else makes them weak spots. They have their whole bodies affected when the neck is cut and that's enough.

Literally no correlation

I wouldn't classify Nichirin swords as Regeneration Negation really. They just cause you to undergo the effects that sunlight would have on you.

Duh. I don't see how this changes things.

I went through a revision to have that wording changed. Check out Tengen's weapon description if you don't believe me.

Literally nothing there says that the swords cause this weakness to exist.

The description for Nichirin swords on all of the profiles where they are listed as equipment actually mention their property of causing complete desintegration to demons via decapitation, so technically that's what it is listed as.

"Technically"

Bro, you know as well as I do that that's not what they're implying.

12 hours where Santana is pretty much defenseless and Tengen can take his time to rest and slash at Santana as much as he wants and see if he can try anything else.

Which he can't. And this is presuming that Tengen can overpower him that easily to begin with which I find extremely doubtful.

Santana doesn't have infinite stamina unlike demons, so at some point he'll reach the point where he'll need a 2000 years long hibernation.

What makes you think that's the case? Kars and the squad hybernated because they wanted to wait for the Stone of Aja to come out.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yeah, because Nichirin swords work via sunlight.

Good thing I'm not!
Source: Dude trust me
Duh. I don't see how this changes things.
Literally nothing there says that the swords cause this weakness to exist.

"Technically"
Bro, you know as well as I do that that's not what they're implying.

Which he can't. And this is presuming that Tengen can overpower him that easily to begin with which I find extremely doubtful.

What makes you think that's the case? Kars and the squad hybernated because they wanted to wait for the Stone of Aja to come out.

The demons who have resistance against Nichirin swords have that due to having specifically adapted against that not due to a resistance to the sun since that's exclusive to Nezuko and Demon Tanjiro. The examples that come from demons show us that demons can make Nichirin swords ineffective through either adapting to it or being completely immune to sunlight and Pillar Men have neither Adaption nor complete immunity to the sun.

I'm not telling you to just trust me. If you know the source material, then you should be aware of the fact that this "weak spot" can't be made use of through anything other than Nichirin swords. Since you seem to be that convinced about it how about you say for me and everyone else here in this thread just what exactly makes this a weakness for demons instead of a property of Nichirin swords. If you don't, then you aren't exactly better than someone who just tells other people to trust you.

It is true that nothing outright says that this is how the relationship between Nichirin swords and demon necks work but it's still notable that the effect that Nichirin swords have upon decapitation is listed with the Nichirin swords instead of the demon whom you insist have this as a specific weakness that no other being vulnerable to the sun should have. With your logic even vampires from Jojo can't be killed with Nichirin swords, so I do hope that you understand that someone will ask for your reasoning and evidence.

Actually, it's Santana who is currently winning this match with 7 votes against 1 and I myself haven't even voted. We are currently just discussing the loose ends and whether or not the recent changes to Tengen's profile affect the outcome. If nothing changes about the votes, then this match will be added once the discussion is over.

Haven't I recently pointed out that it appears that they were forced through circumstances into that hibernation? You can check out Santana's Jojowiki page and Kars' history Jojowiki page if you don't want to trust me on that. Don't act like as if I'm arguing on bad faith here. That's just toxic behavior for a discussion.

 

[Armorchompy]

The demons who have resistance against Nichirin swords have that due to having specifically adapted against that not due to a resistance to the sun since that's exclusive to Nezuko and Demon Tanjiro.

If I recall correctly, neither are ever hit by Nichirin swords so that doesn't really disprove much. Besides, how would they manage to resist the Nichirin's inherent sunlight without having built up a minor resistance to sunlight? There's no other anomalous property to the blade.

I'm not telling you to just trust me. If you know the source material, then you should be aware of the fact that this "weak spot" can't be made use of through anything other than Nichirin swords.

It's a conjunction of both, you need sunlight to affect that weak spot, doesn't mean it isn't one.

Since you seem to be that convinced about it how about you say for me and everyone else here in this thread just what exactly makes this a weakness for demons instead of a property of Nichirin swords. If you don't, then you aren't exactly better than someone who just tells other people to trust you.

You haven't brough forward any proof either.

It is true that nothing outright says that this is how the relationship between Nichirin swords and demon necks work but it's still notable that the effect that Nichirin swords have upon decapitation is listed with the Nichirin swords instead of the demon whom you insist have this as a specific weakness that no other being vulnerable to the sun should have.

It's not "notable", it's an indexing choice that's completely unrelated to the actual workings of the verse and that doesn't even actually imply anything of the sort with its wording.

With your logic even vampires from Jojo can't be killed with Nichirin swords, so I do hope that you understand will ask for your reasoning and evidence.

No, vampires are affected by sunlight in the same way that demons are, so any sort of attack from the sword would regen neg them, no matter where it's aimed. Now mind you, I've just realized pillar men are still susceptible to Hamon attacks which are implied to be way weaker than the sun itself, so maybe it is a grey area for reasons unrelated to the working of the blades. So all things said, I dunno.

Don't act like as if I'm arguing on bad faith here.

I'm not the one making accusations.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If I recall correctly, neither are ever hit by Nichirin swords so that doesn't really disprove much. Besides, how would they manage to resist the Nichirin's inherent sunlight without having built up a minor resistance to sunlight? There's no other anomalous property to the blade.

It's a conjunction of both, you need sunlight to affect that weak spot, doesn't mean it isn't one.
You haven't brough forward any proof either.
It's not "notable", it's an indexing choice that's completely unrelated to the actual workings of the verse and that doesn't even actually imply anything of the sort with its wording.

No, vampires are affected by sunlight in the same way that demons are, so any sort of attack from the sword would regen neg them, no matter where it's aimed. Now mind you, I've just realized pillar men are still susceptible to Hamon attacks which are implied to be way weaker than the sun itself, so maybe it is a grey area for reasons unrelated to the working of the blades. So all things said, I dunno.

I'm not the one making accusations.

As you yourself said, the reason Nichirin swords have an effect against demons is the sunlight that they have absorbed. Therefore, it is rather natural to conclude that demons which have developed immunity to the sun would be immune against the effects of Nichirin swords as well. If you want to go for specific examples, then I can actually give you a statement for Tanjiro. Giyu stated that Red Nichirin Blades won't work against Demon Tanjiro. Given that Red Nichirin Blades are enhanced Nichirin Blades it's safe to extend that statement to Nichirin Blades in their regular state. There is nothing that specific for Nezuko though but I do believe that Nichirin blades not being effective against her anymore is safe for her to assume as well. As for demons needing resistance to sunlight to survive getting decapitated by Nichirin swords, it's stated that they have adapted away their weakness to getting decapitated by Nichirin swords. In other words they've removed their vulnerability against it and nothing more. If they could actually adapt against sunlight, then Muzan wouldn't need to go out of his way to search for a special demon who could do that, he'd just need a demon with Adaption to adapt.

Well, of course it's a weak spot with how the Nichirin swords work. If there is only one spot that allows you to kill your opponent, then that will qualify as a weak spot from your perspective regardless of the reason why that is the case. So, you are admitting to not having brought any evidence? I do recall you mentioning it being called a weak spot, so that counts as evidence in my opinion even if it isn't much but it does mean that you have brought more evidence forward than no evidence from my perspective. I have in turn explained how the neck weakness is only tied to the Nichirin swords and nothing else and that this leads me to think of this as a property of the Nichirin swords themselves. Since our profiles don't say that this is a weakness for demons that would only work on them I believed that it would be alright to treat it as something that would work the same against opponents that are vulnerable to the sun like vampires and, even if that only applies to a lesser degree, Pillar Men. If it truly is a weakness of the demons that can't be extended to other creatures and beings that are vulnerable to the sun, then I'd like you to tell me why that is and make me understand, so that I can make the thread to apply this to the profiles if you don't want to. It is after all causing a discussion between us and a character's win condition depends on it, so it's hardly irrelevant.

According to your logic vampires wouldn't be any more vulnerable to being decapitated through Nichirin swords than through being slashed anywhere other than the neck. If that's the case, then there is no spot that will allow the Nichirin swords to make a vampire's body completely disintegrate and it won't due to a conjunction of its Immortality Type 2 and Regeneration. Even demons can regenerate limbs that were cut off by a Nichirin sword, so it stands to reason that vampires could do that as well and will continue doing so with no weak spot to permanently put them down. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it some more Jotaro managed to kill Dio and he hasn't Regeneration Negation, so I guess a demon slayer could still kill a vampire with enough damage but getting to that point will undoubtedly prove difficult.

I'm not the one responsible for this stuff:

"Good thing I'm not!
Source: Dude trust me
Duh. I don't see how this changes things.
Literally nothing there says that the swords cause this weakness to exist.
"Technically"
Bro, you know as well as I do that that's not what they're implying."

If this is your attempt at being funny or ironic, then I have the bad news to tell you that this usually doesn't go well with me in a debate since I'm not exactly good with humor or even irony. Even if you didn't have any ill intentions here I do believe that you've handled your response to me poorly with this.

 

[Armorchompy]

If you want to go for specific examples, then I can actually give you a statement for Tanjiro. Giyu stated that Red Nichirin Blades won't work against Demon Tanjiro.

I mean, this kind of supports my case in that it supports that resistance to Nichirin is born of resistance to sunlight, be that resistance insufficient to deal with actual, direct exposure to the sun in the case of demons like Muzan.

Given that Red Nichirin Blades are enhanced Nichirin Blades it's safe to extend that statement to Nichirin Blades in their regular state. There is nothing that specific for Nezuko though but I do believe that Nichirin blades not being effective against her anymore is safe for her to assume as well. As for demons needing resistance to sunlight to survive getting decapitated by Nichirin swords, it's stated that they have adapted away their weakness to getting decapitated by Nichirin swords. In other words they've removed their vulnerability against it and nothing more.

But their vulnerability is because of the sunlight to begin with.

If they could actually adapt against sunlight, then Muzan wouldn't need to go out of his way to search for a special demon who could do that, he'd just need a demon with Adaption to adapt.

This just means that normal demons can't adapt to a level sufficient to actually survive sunlight, but they can at least approach it, as shown with Muzan's weird baby construct thing.

I have in turn explained how the neck weakness is only tied to the Nichirin swords and nothing else and that this leads me to think of this as a property of the Nichirin swords themselves.

I don't personally believe this is evidence towards either.

Since our profiles don't say that this is a weakness for demons that would only work on them I believed that it would be alright to treat it as something that would work the same against opponents that are vulnerable to the sun like vampires and, even if that only applies to a lesser degree, Pillar Men. If it truly is a weakness of the demons that can't be extended to other creatures and beings that are vulnerable to the sun, then I'd like you tell me why that is and make me understand, so that I can make the thread to apply this to the profiles if you don't want to.

Well first off, a demon whose body is explicitly anomalous is more likely to have such a quirk than a sword that has no supernatural or unusual qualities beyond its ability to absorb sunlight. Secondly, I simply recall statements of that sort, but I don't remember KNY well enough to pinpoint their location I'm afraid.

According to your logic vampires wouldn't be any more vulnerable to being decapitated through Nichirin swords than through being slashed anywhere other than the neck. If that's the case, then there is no spot that will allow the Nichirin swords to make a vampire's body completely disintegrate and it won't due to a conjunction of its Immortality Type 2 and Regeneration. Even demons can regenerate limbs that were cut off by a Nichirin sword, so it stands to reason that vampires could do that as well and will continue doing so with no weak spot to permanently put them down.

You could make that argument, yeah, if the sunlight is weak enough to only prevent regen neg in the demon's weak spot. My memories of KNY aren't distinct enough to make that claim though, and I feel like something disproves that. Matter of fact is, there's literally no reason for Nichirin swords to affect the neck more than they do any other part of the body considering they're literally just swords imbued with sunlight.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it some more Jotaro managed to kill Dio and he hasn't Regeneration Negation, so I guess a demon slayer could still kill a vampire with enough damage but getting that point will undoubtedly prove difficult.

Jotaro destroyed his Stand, that doesn't have regen.

"Good thing I'm not!
Source: Dude trust me

Yeah, I edited those out right after making that post cause I thought they were a bit too rude. My apologies that you saw them.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I mean, this kind of supports my case in that it supports that resistance to Nichirin is born of resistance to sunlight, be that resistance insufficient to deal with actual, direct exposure to the sun in the case of demons like Muzan.

But their vulnerability is because of the sunlight to begin with.

This just means that normal demons can't adapt to a level sufficient to actually survive sunlight, but they can at least approach it, as shown with Muzan's weird baby construct thing.

I don't personally believe this is evidence towards either.

Well first off, a demon whose body is explicitly anomalous is more likely to have such a quirk than a sword that has no supernatural or unusual qualities beyond its ability to absorb sunlight. Secondly, I simply recall statements of that sort, but I don't remember KNY well enough to pinpoint their location I'm afraid.

You could make that argument, yeah, if the sunlight is weak enough to only prevent regen neg in the demon's weak spot. My memories of KNY aren't distinct enough to make that claim though, and I feel like something disproves that. Matter of fact is, there's literally no reason for Nichirin swords to affect the neck more than they do any other part of the body considering they're literally just swords imbued with sunlight.

Jotaro destroyed his Stand, that doesn't have regen.

Yeah, I edited those out right after making that post cause I thought they were a bit too rude. My apologies that you saw them.

Nezuko and Tanjiro's case is due to outright immunity to the sun and with the exception of Kars as the Ultimate Lifeform none of the Pillar Men are even close to that. Likewise, Nezuko and Tanjiro's ability to develop immunity to the sun is treated as something unique to them. You can't equate the other demons to that even if you argue that their cases would be lesser versions of Nezuko and Tanjiro's.

Them adapting away the vulnerability at their neck doesn't mean that they are less vulnerable to sunlight overall. They'd only be less vulnerable to the sunlight in the Nichirin blade in an overall sense. I don't think that there is any mention of the Nichirin sword affecting their other body parts now to a lesser degree after their neck became less vulnerable.

That's not Muzan being resistant to the sun, that's him making more flesh as protection to buy himself more time to get away. He's so vulnerable against it that he is fearing for his life and desperately trying everything he can to not die. He pretty much has a panic attack over the sun rising. The only reason he lasts any amount of time in the sun at all is that he can generate a lot of flesh to cover himself with. He was still inside there in his combat form if the visual depiction of the scene of him turning Tanjiro into a demon can be trusted.

That was my explanation as to why I think that way about the necks of demons and Nichirin swords. It does show that demons have this weakness in a really specific context and unless there is another instance not related to Nichirin swords that has a demon's neck as a weakness that's the only context where it is one. In that case the question is whether or not the evidence points towards that being innate to the Nichirin swords or the demons. Can you back up your position that this is innate to demons and that it wouldn't apply to other beings vulnerable to the sun?

Well, it was also stated that it was made from a special kind of ore from a mountain that has sunlight for the entire year, that the swords change color depending on the wielder if they have enough proficiency and that the different colors have certain properties. There is also Giyu specifically looking for a sword belonging to a Breath of Water user which further confirms the rather peculiar properties of Nichirin swords. I do recall scenes where the neck has been called the weak spot of the demons but that is always in connection with Nichirin swords.

I kind of figured that this was because of it being biologically a vital spot. All the veins that carry blood and oxygen have to pass through that spot which means that the neck sort of has a permanent connection with everything in the head and the body. I can't claim that this is the actual explanation or reason though since that's something that I have just been thinking to myself. There is also that one case where Tanjiro and Inosuke managed to deal with a headless demon puppet by slicing from the base of its neck on the right side to its left waist, so there is probably more to it than that. Well, the swords themselves are imbued with sunlight because they've been made with a special ore from a mountain that is bathed in sunlight for the entire year and they change color when person with a sufficient level of proficiency and Total Concentration Breathing holds them, so I wouldn't consider them having the trait of affecting the neck more than the rest of the body as that weird for them to have.

But Dio himself has Regeneration. Would The World lacking that make a difference for Dio himself? I guess his Regeneration doesn't cover lethal damage against the manifestation of his soul then if that is how it works but this does seem like as if he gained a serious weakness with The World then. This does beg the question how Nichirin swords are supposed to kill vampires with your logic though.

Oh, I didn't notice that. I guess it's alright now then.