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Usopp vs Lady Nagant (9/11/2)

Izuku didn't knock her out because he froze.

He says so himself, "I was using OFA at 45%, Danger Sense, Smokescreen, Blackwhip, Fa Jin, and Float. And I switched them on and off in rapid succession. But it was too much to process all at once, and my body froze up."

Should be obvious what he's talking about, he froze up when he grabbed her arm because of how many Quirks he was using.
 
mitsuki said:
I believe he starts with it since lady nagants mobility makes her hard to restrain so he'd need to blind/distract her before he restrains her
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, OP has them with no knowledge of the other, so he wouldn’t know she can fly or has a gun in her arm until they become relevant. I wouldn’t doubt that he’d go for it if he can get the smokescreen off though or at least distract her with a plant, but getting to that point and not being taken out fast is the issue.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
No, I mean the Rifle part of her arm. Her body is not as fas as her ballets, but when she activated her Quirk, a rifle literally pops OUT of her arm at speeds that Deku couldn’t react to. So the actual transformation of her rifle is faster as heck.
Click to expand...
Still scales to her own speed and not that of the bullet, and that's my point. The Transformation itself doesn't scale to her bullets, it scales to her speed, you said yourself "her bullets are faster than herself" which we both agreed, but never once said anything about the transformation itself, also again wasn't Deku caught off-guard by his own initial arrogance and wanted to negotiate with her peacefully in order to make her reveal everything she knows about All for one and Shigaraki.

Kingofwolves999 said:
I mean, we can argue all day about why he didn’t just knock her out at that point or not, but the baseline is that he was not taking her lightly in any capacity. He absolutely could’ve beaten her there, but he (uncharacteristically?) got cocky that he caught her, claiming snipers can’t do anything when they’re caught.
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I wouldn't call it uncharacteristically. Since Deku knows a lot about snipers, and what Deku said is common knowledge so the easiest way to handle a sniper is to get close to them. His own words.

Kingofwolves999 said:
He then immediately ate shit for that line of thinking. So I wouldn’t say he was holding back, more so he got arrogant when he thought he had a win condition and pulled it off. Also he might be on a high from using like 6 quirks at the same time.
Click to expand...
He was holding back, he needed her conscious so she could spit the beans. Upon realizing the range difference, Deku was trying to find a way of restraining her without "knocking her out". Notice, how he didn't even attempt at least one Smash Ability and only used the other quirks, also specifically aimed her right arm, rather than punching her.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
I would say Usopp has a lot of elements of surprise and win conditions. She may be more skilled, but Usopp is practically a strategist who utilizes his weapons very well, and knows how to bait people into his trap. Reminder that the initial distance is 500 meter, so Usopp has plenty of options
Click to expand...
Yeah, makes sense
 
Ryuga21 said:
@Kingofwolves999
?
Both have basic knowledge. Usopp only wouldn't start knowing she can fly, and she wouldn't start knowing what Haki is.
Click to expand...
Wait, really? If she knows about his plants than now he’s super screwed because she’s going to try and instantly kill him before he gets to any of them.

If Usopp knows about her rifle and speed, then he’s definitely either running to hide immediately or using a vision obscuring ammo. But if she knows about his stuff, then she’s going to predict him going for his ammo and snipe his arms and legs off.

Nagant having knowledge on Usopp is actually horrendous. Him having knowledge doesn’t save him because, as people are saying, “she is a sniper that can fly.” There isn’t anything for him to adapt to other than immediately going for blinding tactics. She, on the other hand, is going to go for kill shots immediately with her higher attack speed.

I’d recommend either saying they both have knowledge or that neither do. Cause that might make the fight even worse.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wait, really? If she knows about his plants than now he’s super screwed because she’s going to try and instantly kill him before he gets to any of them.
Click to expand...
Having knowledge about his plants doesn't necessarily mean she has the abilities or weapons to counter them, also Usopp can use it to his advantage as well. He is prone to "faking" his abilities to trick his enemy into believing he's going to assume said ability, but then turns out it is not, then it is too late. Note: His Pop Greens are indistinguishable from each other, she won't know what's flying at her until it pops from itself and then it is too late.

Kingofwolves999 said:
If Usopp knows about her rifle and speed, then he’s definitely either running to hide immediately or using a vision obscuring ammo. But if she knows about his stuff, then she’s going to predict him going for his ammo and snipe his arms and legs off.
Click to expand...
If Usopp knows about her rifle, he will naturally trying to restraint her via his plants, he gets access to his flash dial to temporarily stunt her and he got a lot of other options.

Kingofwolves999 said:
Nagant having knowledge on Usopp is actually horrendous. Him having knowledge doesn’t save him because, as people are saying, “she is a sniper that can fly.” There isn’t anything for him to adapt to other than immediately going for blinding tactics. She, on the other hand, is going to go for kill shots immediately with her higher attack speed.
Click to expand...
You know, her having knowledge on Usopp, can backfire real back.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
Having knowledge about his plants doesn't necessarily mean she has the abilities or weapons to counter them, also Usopp can use it to his advantage as well. He is prone to "faking" his abilities to trick his enemy into believing he's going to assume said ability, but then turns out it is not, then it is too late. Note: His Pop Greens are indistinguishable from each other, she won't know what's flying at her until it pops from itself and then it is too late.


If Usopp knows about her rifle, he will naturally trying to restraint her via his plants, he gets access to his flash dial to temporarily stunt her and he got a lot of other options.


You know, her having knowledge on Usopp, can backfire real back.
Click to expand...
Ok, but the issue now is that the instant the battle starts, she kills him by firing rapid shots before he takes his slingshot out. She’s not going to mess around with someone if she knows their capabilities, she doesn’t even need to know what the differences between the plants are.

If all Nagant knows is the versatility Usopp has, she’s not going to let him get anywhere near his weapon to pull them out. She will absolutely shoot at his arms, legs and equipment to disable him before finishing him off. He can’t start off with firing back because her shots will reach him first and he can’t run because she’ll predict his movements and curve her bullets to hit him anyway.

I don’t see how it could backfire if her response to it is instantly trying to disable and kill him before he can get any of that stuff off?
 
We could take Usopp vs Luffy for an example, Luffy knows Usopp better than anyone else in the crew, their friendship is thicker than blood and they are around the same age.

  • I know that Usopp had pre-time
  • I know that Luffy was holding back the time and didn't wanted to hurt an already injured Usopp
During his fight with Luffy, Luffy knew all of Usopp's abilities and was prepared to fight, even if it meant to knock some senses into him. When Usopp announced he was going to shoot a specific ability, Luffy naturally believe (since even he can't tell what Usopp was going to shoot until it hit him or pops from itself). What i'm saying here, most of Usopp's attacks are indistinguishable from each other except his close-combat abilities, the enemy and allies doesn't know beforehand what Usopp is going to do (Of course, you can with Precognition or Future sight before misinterpret this point), they could believe his words but what if it turns out to be a lie? Usopp has consistently and constantly proven to be able to trick his enemies into his traps, pretending to be weak or purposely not shooting at his enemy's direction. Usopp got plently of options, since he has knowledge on her abilities except flying.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
We could take Usopp vs Luffy for an example, Luffy knows Usopp better than anyone else in the crew, their friendship is thicker than blood and they are around the same age.

  • I know that Usopp had pre-time
  • I know that Luffy was holding back the time and didn't wanted to hurt an already injured Usopp
During his fight with Luffy, Luffy knew all of Usopp's abilities and was prepared to fight, even if it meant to knock some senses into him. When Usopp announced he was going to shoot a specific ability, Luffy naturally believe (since even he can't tell what Usopp was going to shoot until it hit him or pops from itself). What i'm saying here, most of Usopp's attacks are indistinguishable from each other except his close-combat abilities, the enemy and allies doesn't know beforehand what Usopp is going to do (Of course, you can with Precognition or Future sight before misinterpret this point), they could believe his words but what if it turns out to be a lie? Usopp has consistently and constantly proven to be able to trick his enemies into his traps, pretending to be weak or purposely not shooting at his enemy's direction. Usopp got plently of options, since he has knowledge on her abilities except flying.
Click to expand...
I literally do not doubt he could trick her even with knowledge.

But he cannot get to tricking her without surviving her lighting him up with a dozen rounds.

She will begin the fight trying to kill him with her higher attack speed before he can shoot off any plants or use any dials. That is the difficulty Usopp is facing. She is not going to wait, she is going to kill him the second it starts unless he does something.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
What i'm saying here, most of Usopp's attacks are indistinguishable from each other except his close-combat abilities, the enemy and allies doesn't know beforehand what Usopp is going to do (Of course, you can with Precognition or Future sight before misinterpret this point), they could believe his words but what if it turns out to be a lie?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't use this argument against Nagant at all because Luffy is more gulliable/naive compared to Nagant, at least Enies Lobby Luffy. There's no way she's going to believe anything he says. She just going to keep her distance, snipe his arms/legs to disable him, she has no need to listen to anything he says, because he's the enemy.
 
NomsNoms said:
I wouldn't use this argument against Nagant at all because Luffy is more gulliable/naive compared to Nagant, at least Enies Lobby Luffy. There's no way she's going to believe anything he says. She just going to keep her distance, snipe his arms/legs to disable him, she has no need to listen to anything he says, because he's the enemy.
Click to expand...
She doesn’t even need distance. He’s in her range and she has the higher attack speed. She’s sniping his arms immediately.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Ok, but the issue now is that the instant the battle starts, she kills him by firing rapid shots before he takes his slingshot out. She’s not going to mess around with someone if she knows their capabilities, she doesn’t even need to know what the differences between the plants are.
Click to expand...
Again, she first needs to transform her right arm into a rifle in order to pull that off, before she shoot, Usopp will prepare himself from her incoming attack as he has knowledge on her Quirk, and we have already established that the transformation itself doesn't scale to her bullets, but her own speed which is equalized. For some strange reasons, i can't see "rapid shoots" in her page, but even then most of his plants will fend off the bullets, as he can use it to shield himself.


Also another note: her bullets may be faster, but the speed gap shouldn't be big enough for Usopp not shooting at the ground and protecting himself from the bullets, as he is not shooting at her, he is shooting at the ground.
 
NomsNoms said:
I wouldn't use this argument against Nagant at all because Luffy is more gulliable/naive compared to Nagant, at least Enies Lobby Luffy. There's no way she's going to believe anything he says. She just going to keep her distance, snipe his arms/legs to disable him, she has no need to listen to anything he says, because he's the enemy.
Click to expand...
My point was, her knowledge on Usopp's abilities matters little when even his bestfriend who knows him better than anyone else in the crew, was caught off-guard by his elements of surprise. Even trusting his words (Classic Shounen character announcing their attack name trope) can be a bait or a trap, even if you don't trust his words it can be a bait too. If Usopp yells " Impact wolf" or "Sleep Gas", wouldn't everyone with common sense automatically assume he is going to do that? and having that in knowledge wouldn't you think that Usopp can take advantage of it?
 
RazumaHiroki said:
Again, she first needs to transform her right arm into a rifle in order to pull that off, before she shoot, Usopp will prepare himself from her incoming attack as he has knowledge on her Quirk, and we have already established that the transformation itself doesn't scale to her bullets, but her own speed which is equalized. For some strange reasons, i can't see "rapid shoots" in her page, but even then most of his plants will fend off the bullets, as he can use it to shield himself.


Also another note: her bullets may be faster, but the speed gap shouldn't be big enough for Usopp not shooting at the ground and protecting himself from the bullets, as he is not shooting at her, he is shooting at the ground.
Click to expand...
The transformation of her arm to rifle is meant to be near instantaneous, and we get a direct showing of her reloading and firing immediately after making it when Deku grabs onto her. The instant her rifle is out, before Deku can even fly away from the point of contact where the end of her gun jammed into his stomach, she has a bullet in her hand loaded to fire.

Like, just look at the process both of them require to shoot their ammunition.

Nagant’s process: Make Rifle-arm, grab hair, load ammo, fire.

Usopp’s process: Get slingshot, get ammo from bag, load ammo, pull back on slingshot, fire.

She is absolutely firing first in any scenario where he is not running. It’s a technological superiority. A gun is going to be ready to fire faster than a slingshot when the ammo and loading mechanisms are right next to each other. Even the movements she has to make are smaller and easier than Usopp’s. It’s a difference of equipment, not even skill.

It actually is that big, because her bullets cross 1 kilometer in less than a second. At 500 meters, her bullets are definitely reaching him first, and especially before he can get a shot off, let alone before his plants have time to grow.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
The transformation of her arm to rifle is meant to be near instantaneous, and we get a direct showing of her reloading and firing immediately after making it when Deku grabs onto her. The instant her rifle is out, before Deku can even fly away from the point of contact where the end of her gun jammed into his stomach, she has a bullet in her hand loaded to fire.
Click to expand...
Still doesn't scale to her bullets, that's all i'm saying.

Kingofwolves999 said:
Nagant’s process: Make Rifle-arm, grab hair, load ammo, fire.

Usopp’s process: Get slingshot, get ammo from bag, load ammo, pull back on slingshot, fire.
Click to expand...
You are aware that Usopp is a lot faster than any skilled marksman from the Marine who are specifically trained to hunt pirates, whose bounty is above 5000 with just a slingshot, logically, it would make sense, but in One piece and especially Usopp's case he defies this logic on a daily-basis. On top of being able to snipe soldiers despite the strong gales and meters of distance between them, he can shoot multiple times per second. With a giant slingshot he invented himself, upgraded with technology that's still a mystery for most of the world. Despite having only mere months of actual training (back at his village he mostly played around). We are using current Usopp who can get his slingshot faster than any marksman, in fact he always have them before the battle, shouldn't be a problem here, considering the fact he has knowledge on her abilities

Kingofwolves999 said:
She is absolutely firing first in any scenario where he is not running. It’s a technological superiority. A gun is going to be ready to fire faster than a slingshot when the ammo and loading mechanisms are right next to each other. Even the movements she has to make are smaller and easier than Usopp’s. It’s a difference of equipment, not even skill.
Click to expand...
Normally, yes, but in this case we are talking about Usopp and his Kuro Kabuto, He performed his snipping skills pre-timeskip and with his outdated Kabuto

Kabuto: "This weapon is several times more powerful than his old slingshot, able to fire faster, farther, and more accurately. This is fully demonstrated when, standing on top of the Tower of Justice, he snipes down Spandam and several Marines on the Bridge of Hesitation, without missing a single shot; the Marines' rifles were incapable of firing that far, let alone actually hitting him."

Keep in mind, Kuro Kabuto is his current strongest weapon, do not compare it to any mere slingshot. I'll have you mind, Usopp created the Climatact for Nami, which created natural lightning and all of her abilities. All of Nami's power-ups coming from Usopp's intellect and creativity, he used the same intellect and creativity to create a slingshot far faster and stronger than any rifle or gun in One piece.
.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
It actually is that big, because her bullets cross 1 kilometer in less than a second. At 500 meters, her bullets are definitely reaching him first, and especially before he can get a shot off, let alone before his plants have time to grow.
Click to expand...
Why are we assuming that Usopp won't shoot at the ground (its a lot faster for him to shoot at the ground, rather than shooting at her) and the plants will immediately stop most of her bullets. Come on, the speed gap isn't that wide for Usopp being unable to do that, the growth of the plants is instantaneous, i fail to see the problem here.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
Still doesn't scale to her bullets, that's all i'm saying.


You are aware that Usopp is a lot faster than any skilled marksman from the Marine who are specifically trained to hunt pirates, whose bounty is above 5000 with just a slingshot, logically, it would make sense, but in One piece and especially Usopp's case he defies this logic on a daily-basis. On top of being able to snipe soldiers despite the strong gales and meters of distance between them, he can shoot multiple times per second. With a giant slingshot he invented himself, upgraded with technology that's still a mystery for most of the world. Despite having only mere months of actual training (back at his village he mostly played around). We are using current Usopp who can get his slingshot faster than any marksman, in fact he always have them before the battle, shouldn't be a problem here, considering the fact he has knowledge on her abilities


Normally, yes, but in this case we are talking about Usopp and his Kuro Kabuto, He performed his snipping skills pre-timeskip and with his outdated Kabuto

Kabuto: "This weapon is several times more powerful than his old slingshot, able to fire faster, farther, and more accurately. This is fully demonstrated when, standing on top of the Tower of Justice, he snipes down Spandam and several Marines on the Bridge of Hesitation, without missing a single shot; the Marines' rifles were incapable of firing that far, let alone actually hitting him."

Keep in mind, Kuro Kabuto is his current strongest weapon, do not compare it to any mere slingshot. I'll have you mind, Usopp created the Climatact for Nami, which created natural lightning and all of her abilities. All of Nami's power-ups coming from Usopp's intellect and creativity, he used the same intellect and creativity to create a slingshot far faster and stronger than any rifle or gun in One piece.
.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say it was the same speed as her bullets, it’s just faster than she is. Whether it’s comparable to her bullets or not is irrelevant, it has its own transformation speed feat.

I’m not in anyway doubting the potency of the slingshot. I’m purely talking about mechanically.

Usopp has to get ammo, load the sling shot then fire. Nagant has a similar process of getting her rifle arm, loading her hair and firing. The issue is her process is faster, so she will fire faster.

It’s like comparing two people getting ready to swim. One of them does a flip before reaching the water, the other immediately dives into it and starts going. Whoever is actually faster at that point doesn’t matter, it’s about who gets in the water first. And Nagant is the first one in the water in this case.
RazumaHiroki said:
Why are we assuming that Usopp won't shoot at the ground (its a lot faster for him to shoot at the ground, rather than shooting at her) and the plants will immediately stop most of her bullets. Come on, the speed gap isn't that wide for Usopp being unable to do that, the growth of the plants is instantaneous, i fail to see the problem here.
Click to expand...
Even if he shoots at the ground, Nagant will just shoot shots that curve over his plants and hit him anyway. It’s not about what he does, it’s about her getting her shots in first that is the problem.
 
I feel like the arguments are becoming more and more circular the further we go. I feel like I’ve said and seen the same thing 10 times by now.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Usopp has to get ammo, load the sling shot then fire. Nagant has a similar process of getting her rifle arm, loading her hair and firing. The issue is her process is faster, so she will fire faster.
Click to expand...
Even then, the plants will immediately protect Usopp from most damage, since they will grow immediately the moment they the ground. Think of it as Usopp knowing the speed of bullets beforehand, and prepared himself to survive the first confrontation with her. Since both have knowledge on each other, why would Usopp not have his weapon loaded before the fight begins? perhaps, i would say that Usopp's process shouldn't be any slower, considering him loading his weapon very quickly is something he always does, especially during Enies lobby it didn't took 2 secs that Spandam got shot by Usopp again and each of the agents as well. Before you say her bullets is faster, Usopp shooting at the ground at the very last moment before the bullets hit him or something like that, like i said before if the speed gap isn't wide he can pull it off.


Kingofwolves999 said:
Even if he shoots at the ground, Nagant will just shoot shots that curve over his plants and hit him anyway. It’s not about what he does, it’s about her getting her shots in first that is the problem.
Click to expand...
But she would first to know with what her starts, which would contradict your initial argument because you said, she's going to shoot at her, before he gets the chance.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Even if he shoots at the ground, Nagant will just shoot shots that curve over his plants and hit him anyway. It’s not about what he does, it’s about her getting her shots in first that is the problem.
Click to expand...
The impact dial will nullify the bullets or usopp could use green star trampolia and none of her bullets would even hit him
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I feel like the arguments are becoming more and more circular the further we go. I feel like I’ve said and seen the same thing 10 times by now.
Click to expand...
Strange coincidence, i noticed that too. Sarcasm aside, we are still trying to debate their first scenario, you can pretty much sums up our current situation as you disagree with my scenario and i disagree with your scenario in a nutshell.
 
RazumaHiroki said:
Even then, the plants will immediately protect Usopp from most damage, since they will grow immediately the moment they the ground. Think of it as Usopp knowing the speed of bullets beforehand, and prepared himself to survive the first confrontation with her. Since both have knowledge on each other, why would Usopp not have his weapon loaded before the fight begins? perhaps, i would say that Usopp's process shouldn't be any slower, considering him loading his weapon very quickly is something he always does, especially during Enies lobby it didn't took 2 secs that Spandam got shot by Usopp again and each of the agents as well. Before you say her bullets is faster, Usopp shooting at the ground at the very last moment before the bullets hit him or something like that, like i said before if the speed gap isn't wide he can pull it off.



But she would first to know with what her starts, which would contradict your initial argument because you said, she's going to shoot at her, before he gets the chance.
Click to expand...
Having knowledge does not equal prep time. I assure you if they had prep time, Usopp would be getting sniped from 9 different directions from 3 kilometers away the second the match starts.

If he knows she’s going to fire first, and uses plants to shield himself, are they even going to be enough? Wouldn’t she pierce the plant unless it has an impact dial? And then what does he do about the other bullets that curve around those plants since she’ll see him shoot those plants and immediately start rapid firing around them? If he’s not starting with a vision obscuring plant, he’s still getting pressured by her shots, he isn’t suddenly safe.
 
mitsuki said:
The impact dial will nullify the bullets or usopp could use green star trampolia and none of her bullets would even hit him
Click to expand...
What stops her curving shots around the flower to not hit the bubble? Now he’s used his first ammunition to shoot a defensive flower, and has to get his next plant ready, while she’s rapid firing shots all over the place that curve to hit him anyway.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Having knowledge does not equal prep time. I assure you if they had prep time, Usopp would be getting sniped from 9 different directions from 3 kilometers away the second the match starts.
Click to expand...
Sorry, for implying he had prep time. However, the knowledge Usopp has on her is enough to know that his first priority is protecting himself from her bullets, as i've explained before the growth of the plants is instantaneous same applies to his sleep hax. So, it's not entirely impossible for Usopp to block the bullets via his plants despite bullets being faster than him, since the speed of the bullets is unquantifiable. Usopp theoretically can shoot the ground before bullets hit him.

Kingofwolves999 said:
If he knows she’s going to fire first, and uses plants to shield himself, are they even going to be enough? Wouldn’t she pierce the plant unless it has an impact dial? And then what does he do about the other bullets that curve around those plants since she’ll see him shoot those plants and immediately start rapid firing around them? If he’s not starting with a vision obscuring plant, he’s still getting pressured by her shots, he isn’t suddenly safe.
Click to expand...
I was not implying he is suddenly safe, but if the bullets hit the plants, it obviously give Usopp some time to react to the bullets or use impact wolf at the start. Technically he can conjure up enough plants needed to stop her rapid fire, also i asked why her rapid fire isn't listed as one of her notable abilities?
 
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