USA Army VS The Fire Nation (Avatar)

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The whole fire nation somehow gets transported to our world and wants to invade the USA as the first conquest.

-Location: entirety of the American contient.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Bump

 

[Braking]

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Even fodder humans are 9-B in Avatar and have Massively Hypersonic reactions, so they can easily dodge gunshots

Also, the Americans would have no idea that they can literally throw fire from their arms and they'll get burned to a crisp with AoE 9-A to Tier 8 flames

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Even fodder humans are 9-B in Avatar and have Massively Hypersonic reactions, so they can easily dodge gunshots

Also, the Americans would have no idea that they can literally throw fire from their arms and they'll get burned to a crisp with AoE 9-A to Tier 8 flames

If I recall correctly, the only tier 8 characters are the relevant ones, not the fodders army.

Even then, you forgot about nukes/radiation, chemichal weapons they could use against them, Air attacks, etc...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If I recall correctly, the only tier 8 characters are the relevant ones, not the army.

Even then, you forgot about nukes/radiation, chemichal weapons they could use against them, Air attacks, etc...

The Fire Nation have their own airships to battle them, Navy forces as well, and Nukes are literally a last resort in case all others would fail, and considering the Nukes aren't readily available, the Fire Nation could attack America while they try to load the nukes

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The Fire Nation have their own airships to battle them, Navy forces as well, and Nukes are literally a last resort in case all others would fail, and considering the Nukes aren't readily available, the Fire Nation could attack America while they try to load the nukes

Honestly, I don't remember them having airships, could you show me a scan of those?


Considering they are fighting people Who Can shoot fire from their hands, USA would opt to do all they have. The entire stockpile would be 6-C, that would be ezz

 

[Imaginym]

Also, bullet piercing damage might be a thing.

& the fact that the American Army probably has prior knowledge, due to The Fire Nation being known fiction.

Alternatively, the Fire Nation army dies in inhospitable wilderness.

The whole fire nation somehow gets transported to our world and wants to invade the USA as the first conquest.

-Location: entirety of the American contient.

The American Continent includes South AND North America. These criteria means Brazil, Mexico, Canada, & many other places are part of the battlefield.

If you're evenly distributing the Fire Nation, that's very spread out.

Not to mention, the region includes jungles, rocky mountains, deserts, & snowy wastelands, among others.
& likely leaves several parts cut off from their supply lines, thrown into unfamiliar terrain filled with potential for diseases likely not native to their world, & thus, which they may not have immunity to. Have fun dying of tubercolosis, pneumonia, & everything under the sun.
Not to mention poisons/venoms of several animals potentially, possibly, & hot weather unfavorable to armored firebenders.

Even with just United States of America itself, there's places like Nevada & New Orleans (Bowl shaped, so a pain to leave, at risk of flooding.) that are plenty inhospitable or dangerous.


I think The Real World takes this easily.

 

[Nierre]

USA FRA

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Honestly, I don't remember them having airships, could you show me a scan of those?


Considering they are fighting people Who Can shoot fire from their hands, USA would opt to do all they have. The entire stockpile would be 6-C, that would be ezz

The Zepplins from the finale. Zuko also rode in a hot air balloon

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also, bullet piercing damage might be a thing.

& the fact that the American Army probably has prior knowledge, due to The Fire Nation being known fiction.

Alternatively, the Fire Nation army dies in inhospitable wilderness.

The American Continent includes South AND North America. These criteria means Brazil, Mexico, Canada, & many other places are part of the battlefield.

If you're evenly distributing the Fire Nation, that's very spread out.

Not to mention, the region includes jungles, rocky mountains, deserts, & snowy wastelands, among others.
& likely leaves several parts cut off from their supply lines, thrown into unfamiliar terrain filled with potential for diseases likely not native to their world, & thus, which they may not have immunity to. Have fun dying of tubercolosis, pneumonia, & everything under the sun.
Not to mention poisons/venoms of several animals potentially, possibly, & hot weather unfavorable to armored firebenders.

Even with just United States of America itself, there's places like Nevada & New Orleans (Bowl shaped, so a pain to leave, at risk of flooding.) that are plenty inhospitable or dangerous.


I think The Real World takes this easily.

He said that only the USA specifically fights the Fire Nation. Not all of America

 

[Imaginym]

He said that only the USA specifically fights the Fire Nation. Not all of America

Exact words were:

"The whole fire nation somehow gets transported to our world and wants to invade the USA as the first conquest.

-Location: entirety of the American contient."

Wanting to invade somewhere does not mean being in that place, or else a lot of invasions would go a lot differently. & he SAID The American Continent, which is, by definition, Canada, America, Mexico, Brazil, etc.

& besides, I doubt many of the people or animals would be too appreciative of these new forces in their territory. & it sure won't stop the weather, nor the terrain being noncompliant. You can't just have the sun stop shining down on Mexico, for example.

& whether you include the USA or not, it's still an unfriendly environment:

As of the 2010 census, the United States consists of 11,078,300 Census Blocks. Of them, 4,871,270 blocks totaling 4.61 million square kilometers were reported to have no population living inside them. Despite having a population of more than 310 million people, 47 percent of the USA remains unoccupied. Apr. 23, 2014

The USA means a lot of unfavorable land to spread Fire Nation troops out over, & a lot more time where their inferior travel time & whether accomodations probably make things harsher for them.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Exact words were:

"The whole fire nation somehow gets transported to our world and wants to invade the USA as the first conquest.

-Location: entirety of the American contient."

Wanting to invade somewhere does not mean being in that place, or else a lot of invasions would go a lot differently. & he SAID The American Continent, which is, by definition, Canada, America, Mexico, Brazil, etc.

& besides, I doubt many of the people or animals would be too appreciative of these new forces in their territory. & it sure won't stop the weather, nor the terrain being noncompliant. You can't just have the sun stop shining down on Mexico, for example.

& whether you include the USA or not, it's still an unfriendly environment:

As of the 2010 census, the United States consists of 11,078,300 Census Blocks. Of them, 4,871,270 blocks totaling 4.61 million square kilometers were reported to have no population living inside them. Despite having a population of more than 310 million people, 47 percent of the USA remains unoccupied. Apr. 23, 2014

The USA means a lot of unfavorable land to spread Fire Nation troops out over, & a lot more time where their inferior travel time & whether accomodations probably make things harsher for them.

Considering the Fire Nation had no problem with the terrain of the Earth Kingdom (with mountains, deserts and other climates), Air Temples (Steep Mountains and cold weather), and Water Tribes (Ice & Water), The USA isn't going to be that different.

The other countries also can't help the USA here as its outside help. And since they have no knowledge of the Fire Nation, they wouldn't know what to do to them at first, especially when guns don't work due to them being 9-C and Firebenders having 9-B durability

 

[Imaginym]

Considering the Fire Nation had no problem with the terrain of the Earth Kingdom (with mountains, deserts and other climates), Air Temples (Steep Mountains and cold weather), and Water Tribes (Ice & Water), The USA isn't going to be that different.

But those were all organized seiges they knew they were going to do & planned for. The circumstances of their arrival here don't seem so arranged, not can they be guaranteed to have the proper clothes for the climate. Not to mention the question of how their vehicles & supply lines are distributed.
& similarly, if not all of them have the proper vehicles, then soldier stamina becomes an issue

The other countries also can't help the USA here as its outside help. And since they have no knowledge of the Fire Nation, they wouldn't know what to do to them at first, especially when guns don't work due to them being 9-C and Firebenders having 9-B durability

It could be argued that SBA don't need to be applied here, since this is Fun & Games.
& again, isn't bullet piercing damage a thing here?

Also, what happens if Fire Nation realizes USA's allies won't get involved & the USA won't attack other countries at risk of starting a war with them? Are we going to have the Fire Nation invade & occupy Brazil while they set up to prepare for their invasion, thus exploiting the no outside help rule; Even if the people, animals & climates are non-factors, taking land is still a faction.

& what do you mean no knowledge of The Fire Nation. Maybe very briefly, but Avatar is fiction in real world; It's not gonna take the US Military long to realize these invaders are one & the same as the people from the cartoons.

Also, even if you ignore surface area of bullets resulting in piercing -You need much higher durability than Tier 9 to actually not take damage from bullets, IIRC.- shooting the soldiers would hardly be the only priority; Anti-vehicle & anti-airship weapons are a thing, & outdated technology or not, destroying their transport is gonna be important.

(& as said above, poison gas, bioweapons, etc.)

 

[YungManzi]

The biggest reason why the fire nation was so dominant in avatar was their navy, which far and away surpassed every other nation.


Fire Navy<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Modern US navy.

Airships<<<<<<<<<<<<Modern Fighter Planes.

Fire Nation Tanks<<<<<<M1 Abram

Irl Bullet piercing damage goes up to like 8-C for assault rifles, so most soldiers are getting shot, and the large majority of fire benders don't scale above 9-B (If even that), nor do they scale to massively hypersonic reactions/attack speed. Not that it'd matter, because dodging a telegraphed massively hypersonic attack does not mean you could dodge dozens if not hundreds of bullets coming at you at once. It'd be difficult to even see them because of how small they are.

Considering the Fire Nation had no problem with the terrain of the Earth Kingdom (with mountains, deserts and other climates), Air Temples (Steep Mountains and cold weather), and Water Tribes (Ice & Water), The USA isn't going to be that different.

And to comment on this:

The fire nation always had a problem with different terrains and fortresses.

1) They needed Sozin's comet to wipe out the air nomads.

2) It took them decades of raids by sea to take down the southern water tribe's water benders even with a huge technological advantage and a far higher population. And unlike the northern water tribe, there wasn't even a huge fortress to get through.

3) In 100 years of fighting an almost uncontested war where they themselves were never attacked, they never took Ba Sing Se nor did they take the North Pole.



But even beyond all of that, what will eventually ruin the fire nation's chances is their poor medical technology and general lack of resources when compared to the us.

Historically, most casualties in armies resulted from sickness. It wasn't until like World War 2 where we had a war where in which most deaths weren't from disease.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Yeah, Americans would have prior knowledge of them, I'm sure that between the American soldiers there must be some Avatar fan. Or they could just search about them in Internet.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Brazil,

 

[Wokistan]

MHS is wanked as shit but I never got around to making the CRT for that. Thing is, the fate of infantry battles kinda doesn't matter.

Firstly, the size of the United States is an issue. It's the third largest country by land area (behind Canada and russia) which makes any attempt at occupation exceptionally difficult, especially with their inferior technology not allowing for the same sort of supply lines we can run with modern stuff. They'd have to probably just burn it all like they were trying with the earth kingdom, but apart from depriving themselves of resources, I feel like that's also the sort of thing that potentially triggers extreme reactions. If you burn down half a state you'll probably get nuked, and they don't have much recourse for ICBMs. Of course, this also assumes they're successful in this, which I don't think they would be, and the reason for that is range.

Range is a pretty large issue for a lot of fictional factions vs real life militaries, because real life military engagements take place at really far distances that aren't that cinematic. Airplanes shooting missiles at each other from ~20 miles away, artillery strikes that have to be calculated out to hit beyond the horizon, battleship volleys that can go even further inland, high altitude bombings, etc. Even a basic rifle can shoot hundreds of meters with decent accuracy with single fire and an unstressed shooter, and with 99% of the fire nation army displaying nowhere near that range, the shooters are probably fine to take their time.

I'd go with the US because a war really isn't won just by killing every single soldier or whatever. Sure it's hard to get rid of tier 8 individuals since they're too small to easily hit with the big explosives or battleship guns that will do anything to them, but you kinda don't need to.

 

[Wokistan]

Also since it got mentioned above, the average fire nation soldier is absolutely not bulletproof. I'd say that none of them are. Stuff like knives, swords, sharp rocks, and arrows are portrayed as plenty threatening to benders if they can slip by their bending. As it turns out, Avatar durability feats aren't generally involving characters directly tanking stuff, but rather defending with their bending. Zuko's got no feats of being punched with High 8-C force or whatever the tier is, but he's got feats of defending against that level of power with bending.

With guns, there's several issues. Firstly, bulletproof isn't a specific tier. (Plateless) Bulletproof vests will fail against knives and don't offer much general protection, but will stop a bullet from penetrating. Meanwhile, 9-C rifles shoot through walls even without armor penetrating ammo. Even pistols do, which is why a lot of people use hollow points for home defense because there's less of an overpenetration risk. So here you have something that's "10-A to 9-C" being bulletproof and something 9-B not being bulletproof. Also there are 9-B guns and shit but that's not the point.

As for bender durability, I don't think that will generally work the best here, because bullets are too small to see in flight from afar and bullets are really fast. Firebenders are manipulating fire, which isn't really solid, and all the tier 8 deflections and stuff have been coming in much slower. They're attacks that could be anticipated and reacted to. I'd imagine earthbenders would have the best time against guns since they can walk around with thick stone walls surrounding them.

 

[YungManzi]

bump, I like this

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmmm, maybe I'll build a case defending Avatar here, but I'll already say that Wokistan is mostly right. Wars aren't won by who has the bigger guns most of the time (The recent wars kinda prove that), and honestly, joules are fine to use as a method of evaluating at higher tiers, but in the lowest tiers, like 9 to 10, I'd argue that joules are less important than material properties. The system kinda breaks down there.

I think the Fire Nation is a bit underestimated here, but assuming a direct conflict, without any knowledge from one another, I'd bet on the US Army too.

 

[YungManzi]

Hmmmm, maybe I'll build a case defending Avatar here, but I'll already say that Wokistan is mostly right. Wars aren't won by who has the bigger guns most of the time (The recent wars kinda prove that), and honestly, joules are fine to use as a method of evaluating at higher tiers, but in the lowest tiers, like 9 to 10, I'd argue that joules are less important than material properties. The system kinda breaks down there.

I think the Fire Nation is a bit underestimated here, but assuming a direct conflict, without any knowledge from one another, I'd bet on the US Army too.

The difference between this war and most recent wars involving say; the middle east and Vietnam, is that the US is the country being invaded (With the goal being to conquer the us). Which means they're extremely likely to be using total war strategies, which haven't been employed since the world wars.

Total War>>>>>>>>>>>Most Historic Wars.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I know, and that's kind of the point I'm making here. I believe the US would win in a neutral scenario not because it has bigger guns, but because it would give a better reason to fight, and thus greater motivation, than the recent wars. And will to win is usually one of the key factors for a country to win a war or not, more than raw destructive power.

 

[YungManzi]

I kinda sounded like you were saying FN could win cause of that.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I kinda sounded like you were saying FN could win cause of that.

Oh, my bad. I need to work on my wording a bit more still.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Bump, guys, I think drones could also be useful here ngl.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Also, IIRCC the fire nation got tanks, I don't know if It would make any difference, but perhaps their tanks can do more damage.

 

[Dir333]

Is iroh added????

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Another question: Would this fight happen in a "technological vacuum"? As in, each would only use their tech, without adapting or grabbing the stuff each other have?

 

[Nierre]

I think adapting is definitely fair game.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

No, they can't adapt, nor the USA army would let them lol.

 

[Nierre]

I was honestly thinking vice versa. USA would definitely be able to adapt to the Fire Nation. But that'd probably be a stomp lol

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I was honestly thinking vice versa. USA would definitely be able to adapt to the Fire Nation. But that'd probably be a stomp lol

It would be dangerous if the Fire Nation adapted to modern tech.

 

[Tybaltcapulet]

The sheer amount of technology the US has that the Fire Nation has never seen before and/or has no concept of is so staggering I don't think they can even compete.

Regular Fire Nation soldiers: Sure seeing soldiers literally make fire in battle would initially be a shock, however having guns that can hit ranges far beyond a fire bender's normal range (outside of Sozin's comet maybe which is an incredibly rare situation)? This is something the Fire Nation will struggle with. We're talking Sniper rifles, battle rifles, Assault Rifles, and LMGs here. All these weapons that have effective ranges at hundreds of meters away, along with having suppressive fire capabilities and besides the Sniper rifles have really good ammo capacity, especially the LMGs. There's no way Fire Nation soldiers are dodging bullets, something they have zero experience in dealing with or dodging anything close to something moving at such speed. Especially with snipers who are specifically designed to be used at exceedingly long ranges in hidden areas. There's no way they're gonna be out here casually bullet timing.

Fire Nation Tanks: There are so many ways the US can deal with Fire Nation Tanks. Whether it be the shells from their own tanks like the M1 Abrams, or all the smaller, more portable anti-tank options like the AT4 and FGM-148 Javelin. I have no doubt that modern anti-tank weaponry can pierce such armor, and even worse is that the Fire Nation has no real equivalent. They don't have any real counter to US tanks, unless they want to try and burn through the armor plating, which I imagine would take a pretty long while. Especially when they're getting shot at from multiple sources and don't have that time. This isn't even getting into the massive disadvantage the Fire Nation faces on the vehicle front alone. The US has all sorts of transportation, including armored cars, MRAPS, Trucks that moves faster than anything the Fire Nation uses. And many of these vehicles are also well armed and ready to support the more heavy backers.

Fire Nation Navy: Easily dealt with. Remember we're dealing with a navy whose firepower comes down to semi auto trebuchets. Trebuchets people, come on. There's no way it's going to be able to compete with modern naval artillery and aircraft carriers alone. Trebuchets are great against a pre modern, and pre gunpowder opponent, but they fail compared against a more balanced and powerful navy that can likely hit them at such ranges and with such powers the Fire Nation cannot fathom. And good luck dealing all the aircraft that can be utilized from the aforementioned aircraft carriers. There's no way those trebuchets can reliably do enough damage to them in the air, and their ships are as good as dead.I'm not even sure if the trebuchets could do much damage against the ships themselves, considering their size and construction.

Fire Nation Air Force: Look at the sheer amount of options the US has to utterly obliterate the Fire Nation Air Force. They have fighters like the F-35 with a bunch of Air to Air missiles, rotary cannons, and large amounts of bombs that can be used to take out land targets. All while being able to reach speeds of over 1,200 MPH (1931 KPH). Even if it was like 3/4 or half that speed it would still be ridiculous against the airships and balloons. And there's 283 of these suckers in service. Even one or two of them would be a menace. Especially against literal air balloons. This alone is a massive threat, but add in stuff like the F-22 Raptor, helicopters, all the UAVs we have, etc. I don't think the Fire Nation can compete with the sheer firepower, and the amount of support aircraft can provide to their own soldiers. I think they'd have trouble against even Vietnam era or maybe even WW2 era planes, but 2021 era planes? Yeah no they're not winning on this front either.

And I'm not even done because we still need to get into two other ways the Fire Nation's Air Force can get screwed. First up is the anti aircraft capabilities of the navy. Yep they're back and many ships in the US Navy are perfectly capable of taking down modern aircraft with it. Just think of what it can do to slower airships and balloons. It would be massacre folks, a massacre. And finally there's all the anti-aircraft weapons that can be used on land. We've got the FIM-92 Stinger, a guided portable surface to air missile that can pack some serious heat. Or the mobile MIM-104 Patriot, a mobile guided missile launcher that we have over a thousand of. We have so many ways of dealing with aircraft that I couldn't possibly get into them all, it's actually ridiculous.

And I haven't even gotten into some of the other weapons we have like howitzers, mortars, multiple rocket launchers, grenade launchers, regular grenades SMGs, shotguns, and even pistols that give the US a large advantage in other areas. There are just so many pieces of technology that can both overcome and directly counter Fire Nation level tech with the Fire Nation not being able to do vice versa it's not even funny. Also even Sozin's Comet isn't an option because the Fire Nation got slapped right in the middle of our world. Sozin's Comet doesn't exist in our world, so they're not getting their power boost anytime soon. They're outclassed on land, at sea and in the air in multiple ways in an unfamiliar land against the US in their own backyard. Even if you take into consideration the literal firepower the Fire Nation possesses, they're outmatched in so many other ways that it really doesn't matter. I really don't think there's much of a case to be made in favor of the Fire Nation and it seems like the US stomps on a material level alone.

 

[Nierre]

It'd probably be better if you added Sozin's comet into the mix

 

[Dir333]

Regular Fire Nation soldiers: Sure seeing soldiers literally make fire in battle would initially be a shock, however having guns that can hit ranges far beyond a fire bender's normal range (outside of Sozin's comet maybe which is an incredibly rare situation)?

I do not see how soldiers trained with military standards would be shocked at that,you can also use the same argument as the US army would also be in shock seeing humans manipulating fire.

This is something the Fire Nation will struggle with. We're talking Sniper rifles, battle rifles, Assault Rifles, and LMGs here. All these weapons that have effective ranges at hundreds of meters away, along with having suppressive fire capabilities and besides the Sniper rifles have really good ammo capacity, especially the LMGs. There's no way Fire Nation soldiers are dodging bullets, something they have zero experience in dealing with or dodging anything close to something moving at such speed. Especially with snipers who are specifically designed to be used at exceedingly long ranges in hidden areas. There's no way they're gonna be out here casually bullet timing.

Are you forgetting the way the fire nation fights war??? The fire tanks are usually In front while the army are behind launching the rocks/long range attacks

The US Army would win low to mid diff. It would be better if this fight would be The US Army vs The modern avatar world

 

[Tybaltcapulet]

I do not see how soldiers trained with military standards would be shocked at that,you can also use the same argument as the US army would also be in shock seeing humans manipulating fire.

That's literally what I said in the sentence my guy. Sure seeing soldiers literally make fire in battle would initially be a shock...". I was specifically talking about the shock the US soldier might have in seeing humans manipulating fire. I don't understand how you could've interpreted that in any other way.

Are you forgetting the way the fire nation fights war??? The fire tanks are usually In front while the army are behind launching the rocks/long range attacks


The US Army would win low to mid diff. It would be better if this fight would be The US Army vs The modern avatar world

And this invalidates the struggles the Infantry will go through how? They'll still have to compete with the modern guns i've listed, even if their approach is delayed. And I've gone into detail the long range capabilities of guns including sniper rifles. And remember the US is crawling with artillery to deal with them. And I made an entire section discussing how the tanks are utterly outclassed and can be countered in varying ways. Them fighting this way is irrelevant when pretty much every part of their military gets dunked on by vastly superior tech, usually in multiple ways.

I haven't watched TLOK but I generally agree the avatar world working together would have a much better shot at winning, being a larger and more balanced army. I'd still be hesitant to give them an outright victory, but it would definitely be more close.

 

[N_Kardashev]

hypersonic missiles solo

stealth drones solo

nuclear subs solo

USSF alone would solo

via limited Morality Manip via social influencing uncle sam dun hafta shoot a single bullet