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Updating Pokemon Statistics

Found now other stuff too:

Tyranitar Ultra Moon entry: This Pokémon is a mobile disaster, leaving mountains crumbled and houses destroyed in its wake.

This includes the Mount Lanakila, which is clealry ispired to the Mauna Kea, which is 4207.3 m high, way above the height required to get 7-A from fragmentation (3682.55 m).

And before you ask, is the highest peak of Alola region, which is based on the Hawaii, so it being based on the Lananika is more than proved.
 
Uh, Lanakila is very clearly intact, though. Hell, if it is the highest peak of Alola, then obviously the ones it destroyed were smaller
 
Vfrag specifically requires fragments smaller than two/three inches I think that's a bit too small to assume from text.
 
Armorchompy said:
Vfrag specifically requires fragments smaller than two/three inches I think that's a bit too small to assume from text.
Click to expand...

Destruction Values​

According to the method used within the Naruto Forums, there are different methods of Destruction (for lack of a better term) that require different levels of energy for every cubic centimeter of the volume that was destroyed during the feat:

Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into fairly large and distinguishable pieces. The value is 8 joules per Cubic centimeter (j/cc).

Violent Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into small but still distinguishable pieces. The value is 69 (j/cc).

Dunno from where did you get that value from tbh.
 
As I said before, I don't really have much thoughts on the tier 7 stuff for the non-legendaries so I'll mostly leave that up to everyone else.

However, I will say that part of this thread at least may need to be halted until Ex's thread with his Pokemon Blog is discussed and dealt with.
 
"Small but distinguishable pieces" means pebbles, not rocks. Crumbled is far too generic to assume Vfrag.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
However, I will say that part of this thread at least may need to be halted until Ex's thread with his Pokemon Blog is discussed and dealt with.
Click to expand...
Agree with that, 1st we should wait what happens to PMD.

Found other stuff but I'm afraid it leads to 7-B+ at best as well.
 
Unfortunately; I got lost after I just got home to 52+ notifications and that half the thread was filled up after the latest ping. The last thing I recall was some scaling chains based on elemental stuff vs blunt force trauma not based on universal energy sources yeah.
 
Copperajah's feat is good, but that would be limited to Gigantamax Pokémon.

Tyranitar's is also good, but if we keep the rule "semi-legendaries are a step above other Pokémon in their stage" I'm not sure if it can scale to other third stages,

About MD, iirc the only relevant thing for normal Pokémon was Charizard being stated to have melted mountains, which would fall under heat and the not good for scaling.
 
about gigamax pokemon. I think we can scale them. Pikachu has been seen doing barely any damage to g-max pokemon yet leon's charizard tanked one. We laso had an instance of pikachu and two (if i remember) fully evolved pokemon power struggling against a g-max attack. Basically, though we need to rewatch some clips, g-max could be 4x 5x above a fully evolved pokemon. I'd lean to 5x as Pikachu scales above mega evolutions who are somewhat above 2x (Pikachu overpowered a hyper beam combo from Ghyrados and Tyranitar and at least Tyranitar here is a pseudo legendary and scales above average pokemon )
 
and on another note about tyranitar not scaling to normal final stages because he's a semi-legendary... kinda bs no offense

He isn't a semi legendary but a pseudo-legendary. It is more of a fan name than anything. They are superior but not too much and should still scale below mega evolutions unless they use one themselves.
 
This thing about pseudo legendaries has been used even in the past, when 7-A was given after Pupitar toppling a mountain, which was considered too much for second stages and then not scalable to them.
If we scrap that rule, I guess that second stages could be 7-B after Dragonair (or try to find something else if it considered a problem like Ryhorn's feat or for other reasons).

Gigamax and Megas were considered a step above other Pokémon but not that much to make them untouchable, but I agree that giving them an upper tier might make this distinction too big.
 
I mean, Piloswine isn't even fully evolved, that feels outliery.
 
I forgot to mention that Tyranitar busting mountains is pretty causal too if it does to just create a nest, so stage 1 mons being 7-A while the other tier 7 feats were extremely casual and Stage 2 mons make 7-B feats casually as well, there's no reason to call it an outlier with so much supporting stuff.
 
I mean:

Dawn's Piplup's High 7-C feat: was done pretty causally, it wasn't a special whirpool, Piplup wasn't even tired after that.

Pupitar's High 7-C feat: Its shell is as hard as sheet rock, and it is also very strong. Its thrashing can topple a mountain. It doesen't sound an extraordinary feat too, Trash at best leads to Confusion, and yet can be used many times without any recoil.

Volcarona's 7-B feat: When volcanic ash darkened the atmosphere, it is said that Volcarona’s fire provided a replacement for the sun. This implies that Volcarona can do such for extended periods of time without too much effort as to replace the sun is needed a lot of time, especially with such envrioment.

Tyranitar's 7-B+ feat:
  • Ultra Moon dex: This Pokémon is a mobile disaster, leaving mountains crumbled and houses destroyed in its wake.
Just from waking it destroys mountains, making it casual.
  • Y dex: If it rampages, it knocks down mountains and buries rivers. Maps must be redrawn afterward.
It's basically Pupitar's feat but way higher. Also, the "maps must be redone afterward" supports such.
  • SoulSilver dex: Extremely strong, it can change the landscape. It has an insolent nature that makes it not care about others.
Even there it can make things implied as beyond stage 1 mons.

Octillery, Rhyperior and Gyarados 7-B feats are casual too.

Kingra can perform a feat higher than Down's Piplus from like just moving, making it extremely casual too.

This kinda confirms stage 2 returning to 6-C actually due of Magnitude 10, since 7-A for Stage 1 is supported from casual High 7-C feats and the 6-C feat is supported from really casual 7-B feats, other than Tyranitar being able to even change maps and Pokémon earthquakes being = irl ones as shown with Piloswine.
 
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Stage 1 Pokèmon can also use Magnitude. It cannot be used.
 
I strongly disagree with using Piplup for the reason previously stated, as that one Piplup isn't representative of its species and using its feat for second forms and not first is arbitrary, and sai Piplup can contend even with third form Pokémon.

Magnitude is also arbitrary, not only it does random damage going from tier 8-B to 6-C, but even baby Pokémon can survive a Magnitude 10.

Rhypherior's feat also in inapplicable, because tanking a volcanic euruption doesn't mean that you withstand the entire energy needed to trigger said eruption (and this is not even accounting surface area) and it still is a heat resistance feat, not dura (same reason why Charizard melting mountains is good for AP but not striking, dura o scaling to other non-fire moves).
Gyarados feat is also inapplicable because the timeframe isn't specified and nothing implies it can destroy cities in a single blast.

Octillery's feat needs new pictures, since the original are gone and likely a new calc.

At this point we have some 7-B feats performed by third stages and some powerful second second stages, making 7-B/7-B+ consistent for the former and a bit less for the latter (Pupitar wasn't scaled to second stages in the pst because considered too strong for them).

Honestly, I don't know how to handle second stages. (the old "Pseudo-legendaries are a step above their respective stage" would solve some problems, but I recognize that it's a bit fishy)
 
I think any Earthquake move also has a serious issue in that the earthquake's effects inflict serious damage to Pokèmon that are comparable to the user, which makes no sense if we scale them to the whole earthquake, which is so much stronger.
 
SamanPatou said:
I strongly disagree with using Piplup for the reason previously stated, as that one Piplup isn't representative of its species and using its feat for second forms and not first is arbitrary, and sai Piplup can contend even with third form Pokémon.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, never understood why it was used.
SamanPatou said:
At this point we have some 7-B feats performed by third stages and some powerful second second stages, making 7-B/7-B+ consistent for the former and a bit less for the latter (Pupitar wasn't scaled to second stages in the pst because considered too strong for them).

Honestly, I don't know how to handle second stages.
Click to expand...
7-B feats done casually and Pupitar's feat is casual too tho, and thus making Piloswine's 7-A feat not an outlier.
Armorchompy said:
I think any Earthquake move also has a serious issue in that the earthquake's effects inflict serious damage to Pokèmon that are comparable to the user, which makes no sense if we scale them to the whole earthquake, which is so much stronger.
Click to expand...
MEH, I don't recall such, and using the base power of the move sounds game mechanics.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Isn't that game mechanics too now that I think?
Click to expand...
That's the main reason I disagree with using it, it's an inconsistent move and bound to game mechanics.

Personally I'd count Piloswine's feat as applicable to third stages but not second ones (at the time Piloswine was a strong second stage, like those who can compete with third ones, it has been retconned later).

The remaining problem is that third and second stages seem to occupy almost the same tier, raginging from High 7-C, all over 7-B and breaching 7-A.
 
SamanPatou said:
That's the main reason I disagree with using it, it's an inconsistent move and bound to game mechanics.

Personally I'd count Piloswine's feat as applicable to third stages but not second ones (at the time Piloswine was a strong second stage, like those who can compete with third ones, it has been retconned later).

The remaining problem is that third and second stages seem to occupy almost the same tier, raginging from High 7-C, all over 7-B and breaching 7-A.
Click to expand...
Aka a special Piloswine you mean? Well, I can see that, since is even of Team Rocket's, so it should be stronger than regular Stage 1s too.
 
Gigantamax venusaur and gigantamax copperajah both have tier 7 feats as well

"Huge amounts of pollen burst from it with the force of a volcanic eruption. Breathing in too much of the pollen can cause fainting. "

"So much power is packed within its trunk that if it were to unleash that power, the resulting blast could level mountains and change the landscape. "
 
Not really a special one, more like ignoring that now is an intermediate level, but at the time it was a final one. But the fact that it got retconned may clash with using it as the main reason to give them 7-A (as, if I got it right, the other feats are 7-B+ and I'm not sure it we can upscale them).

We also have to decide how to handle Gigantamax (Megas and Z-moves, also) forms, as a not too big jump in power or keeping them somewhat separated as we do now/did in the past.
 
@SamanPatou imo:

Stage 1: 7-A for Piloswine (Magnitude 9 is 476.88 Megatons) because of it being even backed from Pupitar's feat, which is casual.

Stage 2: At least 7-A+ (>x2 boost because of stats items always being x2 in boost, evolution not being higher doesen't make sense) for base ones, backed from Tyranitar making casually feats above Pupitar's and even changing the maps casually supports it being > Piloswine's feat.

Dynamax: whoever applies should just be x2 because the whole "x2 HP thing", so it should apply to all the stats lore-wise.

Megas/Z moves/Gigamax: At least High 7-A, likely higher (still >x2 boost from base for same reason, Gigamax isn't >x2 Dyna as it's superior to the latter on an unknown amount, so is a safe end)

This doesen't contradict scaling too
 
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wait why do u call em stage 1 and stage 2?

Welp whatever, stage 2 should scale at least to the dragonair feat as we have seen that despite being superior it is not too much superior. We could also argue that 2nd stage pseudo legendaries are somewhat stronger due to level difference for their evolution.

The copperajah feat was calced once and it was kinda crappy cause the mountains ain't exactly big, though the averege mountain in britain is like 1200 meters so we need to re-calc that. If we ever get proof of copperajah doing similar feats in an indian region it would be amazing as the mountains here are at best 8400 meters

can anyone rewatch the episode where leon and ash fly around kicking dynamax pokemon? There should be an instance during the centiscorch fight where they clash attacks and centiscorch does a power struggle and eventually overpowers a thunderbolt and some fully evolved attacks. This should give us a multiplier of around 4x 5x as it was ash's pikachu using thunderbolt.
 
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