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I remember the calc making some weird assumptions based on the speed and strength it would take to summon a pillar of lava from underground or something similar, while admitting that often it's just portraied as a burst of earth energy.
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In Piloswine Whine, Carl used a Piloswine's sheer power to devastate Ecruteak City with an Earthquake. However, Silver defeated it easily with Gold's Politoed.
found it in bulbapedia
found it in bulbapedia
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Didn’t Ex’s blog devalue this entire thread?
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In that the premise for this thread is based on non-canon, which Ex’s thread/blog pretty much redefines our canon rules.
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Some feats can't be used anyway (defog) and non-canon material doesn't really give anything relevant to normal Pokémon.
This thread also is leading to some clean-up, clarifications and separations, which is good.
This thread also is leading to some clean-up, clarifications and separations, which is good.
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Defog’s fine. We already know how I feel about VSBW and overuse of the concept of outliers
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I'm strongly against using defog, it has the same problem of Magnitude, even first stages can learn it and saiying that only third stage achieve that effect with it is false and arbitrary. It is also a non-damaging move, so I don't know why it is used for ap, and that would make all Pokémon impervious to it, meaning that all damaging move produces a fairly superior amount of force.
And the unreliability of moves-based feats is and has been recognized, I could make plenty of examples (seismic toss, moon blast/light, rain dance...)
And the unreliability of moves-based feats is and has been recognized, I could make plenty of examples (seismic toss, moon blast/light, rain dance...)
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Honestly that just means 1st stages are stronger than we have them right now, if anything. They have the feats, so be it. It’s how our system works. Also who cares if it’s non-damaging? The force of flapping wings is what causes the feat, which can directly be translated to damage. Finally, comparing it to other moves animations is comparing apples to oranges when Defog is a cutscene feat. Not to mention our rejection of moves for feats is such a blatant double standard that it’s not even funny.
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It’s somewhat reliable, tbh.
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This makes all Pokémon, including babies and Magikarp, way stronger and durable than 7-A.
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Correct
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Argument from incredulity. Attack animations is like...the main way RPGs have been scaled since forever.
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I'm with Cal with this to a degree. However, I'm unsure if Defog should be used currently.
We're acting like different evolutionary stages have to be separate tiers, and we've kept to a certain area of power for a while now. But if Pokemon have multiple feats and showings on this level, why shouldn't they scale to them?
It cant be massively inconsistent, if a first stage Pokemon has a 7-A feat, then others can scale to it. The scaling stays the same but at power levels that make sense, not having to narrowly avoid stuff that would be inconsistent with our current ratings. Yeah it means that Pokemon would get a massive boost, but the power difference would still be differentiated through scaling and such, just the Pokemon would likely share a tier. But upscaling would still make second stages stronger than first, etc.
We're acting like different evolutionary stages have to be separate tiers, and we've kept to a certain area of power for a while now. But if Pokemon have multiple feats and showings on this level, why shouldn't they scale to them?
It cant be massively inconsistent, if a first stage Pokemon has a 7-A feat, then others can scale to it. The scaling stays the same but at power levels that make sense, not having to narrowly avoid stuff that would be inconsistent with our current ratings. Yeah it means that Pokemon would get a massive boost, but the power difference would still be differentiated through scaling and such, just the Pokemon would likely share a tier. But upscaling would still make second stages stronger than first, etc.
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Keep in mind pokemon is a verse with more outliers than any other, the fact the only way these lower stage pokemon only potentially scale to these high tiers due to a few animations that are only present in the games (I dont see seismic toss launching people into space in the anime not do I see earthquake tearing down cities) is more than enough for me to disregard something. And honestly calculating tier via attack animations in jrpgs is just ridiculous to begin with.
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You do know that most earthquakes irl dont do this despite being tier 7 right?
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Except we don't see moves like earthquake and magnitude do hardly any sort of environment damage, at all.
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it kinda do
bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net
Magnitude (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
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We dont see irl tier 7 earthquakes do much environmental damage either
Plus in the manga Earthquake is shown doing actual dmaage
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At the end of the day I'm not a staff member so it's not like I have final say, my belief though is that if you scale every pokemon to things like defog or magnitude you'll eventually get cases where it's probably an outlier, and at that point it's probably best to just disregard it entirely.
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Okay, just to comment on this one point, Piplup's feat here at this time actually should be representative of it's species since Piplup at the time did not obtain new levels of feats that puts it out of any ordinary Piplup's pay grade.
Whirlpool is a move that Dawn's Piplup learned very early into the D/P anime, while Dawn herself is still a rookie trainer and no where near as strong or as experienced as they both become later down the line. So while Piplup does eventually enter a class of it's own as a Piplup compared to any run of the mill one, it should be fine to use a feat that it does early on that can still be acceptable as something that is in reach of general Piplups, which would then be scaled to other mons.
I don't mind much on how the Tier 7 stuff will be dealt with, but I do have to disagree with this one small thing about Piplup. There's a difference between not scaling the species to a special mon and scaling them to their early versions when they are still not above average. And Piplup's whirlpool feat should be considered the latter.
After all, it's not like Ash's Pikachu started the series out as being > any other normal Pikachu, right? The same would go for any other Pokemon (up to an obvious point) as well.
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