- 16,959
- 4,855
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
- 15,920
- 2,693
The answer is as the same I already said before. And you still haven't proved Pokémon being a magical outlier in terms of canon, so it's not like it matters until that happens.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Okay but...that kinda wasn't the question I asked you. I asked where on the Canon page does it even specify these standards you speak of. Cuz I don't see them, and if they're there, clarify it.
- 16,959
- 4,855
First of all, stop with this whataboutism Yuri. It's not an argument.
And second of all, DB is a false equivalence to Pokemon. DB doesn't treat any alternate canon as an alternate universe or timeline in their source material. Pokemon does. The cases are not the same.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Case by Case basis and different context exist. So yes, there are differing cases.
And again, differing. Not "special".
And since when was this a thing for DB?
- 16,959
- 4,855
You know what I meant here. Canon isn't a 1 to 1 thing in fiction, every verse treats their canon different from each other is my point. Different context and circumstances come.
Its a case by case basis.
For a verse that, again, has the general practice of including different canons in its source material, that doesn't and shouldn't apply. So sorry, but I disagree.
You seem to be missing my point. Does Dragon Ball actually treat spin-off canon as any kind of alternate timeline in any way?
Patrolman Jaco is set as a prequel to the original DB series.
- 6,605
- 4,155
If you dislike DB example, I can take the fact that Mario and Zelda mangas aren't magically canon because of "following the same lines"; and here every canon work do coexist through timelines and others shenanigans.
A verse confirming some works as canon =/= everything is canon for absolutely no reason .
A verse confirming some works as canon =/= everything is canon for absolutely no reason .
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,191
- 3,747
Bump
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,191
- 3,747
bump
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,191
- 3,747
bump
- 9,349
- 8,144
We need to find something in the Pokedex or such to rate second stages Pokémon, after that we have pretty much all that is needed to update the non-legendaries.
(I'm not too comfortable with using Piplup's whirlpool feat from the anime)
9-A for the babies (after the meteor feat, even discarding the landing) , 8-B for some first stages (I believe some debate can be made about it, but many others still have boulder shattering statements), something for the second stages and 7-B for the third ones (after Dragonair nuking Vermillion City and some more statements).
Keep in mind that the following Pokémon and their lines are considered to be a step above the others in their same evolutionary league in terms of strength, and this was done even before but not totally applied: Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamance, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, Goodra, Kommo-O, Dragapult
(I'm not too comfortable with using Piplup's whirlpool feat from the anime)
9-A for the babies (after the meteor feat, even discarding the landing) , 8-B for some first stages (I believe some debate can be made about it, but many others still have boulder shattering statements), something for the second stages and 7-B for the third ones (after Dragonair nuking Vermillion City and some more statements).
Keep in mind that the following Pokémon and their lines are considered to be a step above the others in their same evolutionary league in terms of strength, and this was done even before but not totally applied: Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamance, Metagross, Garchomp, Hydreigon, Goodra, Kommo-O, Dragapult
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,191
- 3,747
bump
- 17,216
- 12,655
don't second stages have the high 7-C feats that were well made and evaluated? Also we could probably find some good stuff for first stages. Fot 3rd stages i wish we can still find some good 7-A feat. We need to search. most end up being outliered like the thunder animation calc and the sawk splitting an ocean once which seemed good but got dismissed.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,191
- 3,747
There's Pupitar toppling a mountain, but I think it only scales to pseudo-legendary second stages
- 9,349
- 8,144
Personally, I have some issues with that feat (and some from the anime).
The point is that our profiles depicted "the maximum version" of a Pokémon in its current stage. And technically it would be easy to say that any "max second stage" would be at least superior to that Piplup. But Piplup is a first stage, and so why the maximum first stage Pokémon wouldn't be comparable to that specific Piplu?
And then we get High 7-C first stages. The anime cares very little of powerscaling, as many first stages (Piplup included) can very well fight third stages, but we don't use those fights to scale because they are treated as outliers.
And because in the anime Pokémon display unnatural levels of strength for their stage we don't "cross scale" between forms, since the fights are unreliable, but for the same reason I'm iffy in using "raw feats", as they can very well be inflated due to the reasons above.
That Piplup is unnaturally strong for a first stage, but it is also can be unnaturaly strong for a second stage, as others are in the anime.
For this reason I prefer to pick feats mainly from the games, and apply particular scrutiny when using sometimes coming from a side source (regardless of the canon).
About other calcs, there's Magneton changing the heat with magnetic waves or something that resulted in High 7-C, but I doubt it can translate to raw ap, scale to its normal attacks and also scale to other Pokémon, similarly to how heat, cold and electricity aren't good to scale durability. (and this thing is still involved in said feat).
The point is that our profiles depicted "the maximum version" of a Pokémon in its current stage. And technically it would be easy to say that any "max second stage" would be at least superior to that Piplup. But Piplup is a first stage, and so why the maximum first stage Pokémon wouldn't be comparable to that specific Piplu?
And then we get High 7-C first stages. The anime cares very little of powerscaling, as many first stages (Piplup included) can very well fight third stages, but we don't use those fights to scale because they are treated as outliers.
And because in the anime Pokémon display unnatural levels of strength for their stage we don't "cross scale" between forms, since the fights are unreliable, but for the same reason I'm iffy in using "raw feats", as they can very well be inflated due to the reasons above.
That Piplup is unnaturally strong for a first stage, but it is also can be unnaturaly strong for a second stage, as others are in the anime.
For this reason I prefer to pick feats mainly from the games, and apply particular scrutiny when using sometimes coming from a side source (regardless of the canon).
About other calcs, there's Magneton changing the heat with magnetic waves or something that resulted in High 7-C, but I doubt it can translate to raw ap, scale to its normal attacks and also scale to other Pokémon, similarly to how heat, cold and electricity aren't good to scale durability. (and this thing is still involved in said feat).
- 1,590
- 308
Not wanna interrupt anything, but just here to say that the Togepi feat was never actually accepted. IIRC, Jason wasn't a calc group member back then.
- 9,349
- 8,144
It still is telekinesis, which normally wouldn't scale to neither to general ap (only to the telekinesis itself) nor to others.
- 1,590
- 308
Psychic is just an special attack as any other, let it be a thunderbolt or a flamethrower. The matter at hand it's that the calc isn't accepted.
- 9,349
- 8,144
I know, but no one of them would scale to anyone's durability, just to the user ap and those comparable to it, and only in relation to heat, electricity, cold and psychic force.
- 1,590
- 308
Happiny's physicals scales to Togepi's special attacks in this episode.
- 17,216
- 12,655
i think the anime uses more of a game system. Like you could theoretically beat an incineroar with a torracat if the levels are good enough. I think that the game scaling system is way worse and we still use game info, so i think we should also be able to use the feats from anime to do some crosscaling. I am pretty sure that the piplup way later was only comparable to ash's oshawatt who at full power couldn't beat third stages if i remember correctly (Victini buffed him to beat a third stage he was struggling against in the movie)
- 1,590
- 308
They just were bitter at each other.
Those things happen in different chronological points. And Dawn's Piplup has a good record of fighting against fully-evolved Pokémon, even one-shorting them within BW itself.
Piplup should just make Prinplup scale, as the feat occurred early at the series and at that time he fought on equal grounds with Kenny's Prinplup. No doubt he got stronger after the series went on.
Last edited:
- 17,216
- 12,655
seems legit. It is dumb to assume that a piplup can't beat a late stage. I know there are no lvls in the anime but if we equate amount of training to levels then a lvl 50 incineroar could lose to a lvl 60+ Torracat. If all were maxed out like in the wiki then tne results would be different.
- 9,349
- 8,144
Particularly strong Pokémon of a certain stages are recognized as being able to fight weaker Pokémon of a higher stage, reason why trainer such as Misty and Nessa aren't 7-A anymore, despite having final stage Pokémon.
But the fact that all profiles are meant to cover the strongest version possible of each Pokémon in their stage, would make all first stages High 7-C scaling from Piplup.
That's why I'm a bit iffy on using the anime as the main reason for the tiers, as some Pokémon can content with strong higher stages (let alone some battling with legendaries).
I'd be more prone to think that some anime Pokémon are exceptionally strong versions among to their species, even when compared with the strongest of them, given what they can achieve (either because of plot sake, PIS or whatever).
But the fact that all profiles are meant to cover the strongest version possible of each Pokémon in their stage, would make all first stages High 7-C scaling from Piplup.
That's why I'm a bit iffy on using the anime as the main reason for the tiers, as some Pokémon can content with strong higher stages (let alone some battling with legendaries).
I'd be more prone to think that some anime Pokémon are exceptionally strong versions among to their species, even when compared with the strongest of them, given what they can achieve (either because of plot sake, PIS or whatever).
- 9,349
- 8,144
Anime Pikachu already scales to third stages due to it being extraordinary strong, and clearly above any normal Pikachu, even for the strongest of them.
- 167,679
- 76,257
@The_real_cal_howard @Kirbyelmejor @Starter_Pack @ShiroyashaGinSan @Bobsican @Robot972 @Sans2345 @Udlmaster @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera @Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Ionliosite @Firestorm808 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Executor_N0
Would you be willing to help out with this?
Would you be willing to help out with this?
- 2,742
- 489
Ant tagging the whole Endgame roster lmao
- 16,959
- 4,855
In fairness, TK can scale to AP here. I mean, Tatsumaki can testify to that herself.
- 9,349
- 8,144
My bad, I meant that it doesn't scale to the overall AP, but just to telekinesis itself, just like other non-scalable stuff does (heat, cold...) and shouldn't scale to the stats of other characters based on scaling.
Colonel_Krukov
🖖 Live long and prosper
He/HimVS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Administrator
Image Helper
- 8,626
- 10,802
What needs to be changed?
- 9,349
- 8,144
We should try to not mix statistics with game mechanics, all other verses don't scale telekinesis to striking strength or durability, I don't know why it would be different with Pokémon. It's similar to how heat, freezing and electricity don't scale. (as DDM explained in a previous post, and scaling through these things has been axed from the wiki).
- 9,349
- 8,144
Tl;dr from the op:
7-A calcs aren't valid anymore for third stages, and they would go down to 7-B according to various Pokèdex statements and supported by Dragonair nuking Vermillion City in the manga.
Babies would go down from 8-C to 9-A based on a recalc of the meteor feat from a different perspective (because we aren't sure Cleffas crash landed with the meteors).
First stages would probably go to 8-B or 8-A based on Ryhorn shattering a skyscraper.
Second stages should get something too, but it's unsure now, as I have some questions on the current anime feats used for them (which is what we've been discussing recently) and we haven't found other feats yet.
