Updating Pokemon Statistics

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay and again, the “how” in this case can be different from the “how” in the case of another verse and what they find acceptable as canon.

But yeah, no more derailing on that. I only came to say that as a heads up of what’s to come.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Imagine ignoring people completely on the grounds that they simply disagree with your point of view.

Just to clear this misunderstanding up, I don’t have you on ignore simply because I share different views on things. My ignore list would be a lot bigger if that’s was the case.

I use it to, putting it bluntly, prevent future drama and issues with people I dislike.

 

[Waka1979]

I agree with axing Darkrai and Creselia's 2-B rating. Scaling them to the gods of the verse simply due to a "lack of anti feats" is incredibly flimsy.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I agree with axing Darkrai and Creselia's 2-B rating. Scaling them to the gods of the verse simply due to a "lack of anti feats" is incredibly flimsy.

Except that’s a very strong reason why the scaling is fine?

You can’t downgrade without an actual concrete basis, and as of now, we have none

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

OP looks solid, I agree with the revision.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also I might have not given an official answer to where I stand

Some stuff I’ll be taking to my own thread to sort out and I don’t care about the ratings for the non-legendaries.

But I’m vehemently disagreeing with removing 2-B from the lunar duo in any way, shape or form, until my counter-arguments from before that defend it are addressed.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with Kukui right now, Darkrai just being able to interact with "lower" beings if it was 2-B aren't anti-feats, we shouldn't just look at stuff like numbers and exclusively focus on appearances, context matters too, as he explains, an outlier per definition covers something that can't be related to a character's set of capabilities out of the sheer inconsistency, but it's clear that Darkrai was intended to be this strong as shown with the fight on Dialga and Palkia, with all other portrayals being either too minor or outlier fests like that one Hoopa incident.
So, I really think Darkrai being 2-B is fine.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm neutral for Darkrai being 2-B, at least, that specific Darkrai.
The thing ***** with Dialga and Palkia way to much for it just get handwaved, like, Dialga and Palkia to Darkrai, is what Meteors are to Fug, it's his whole schtick.

The movie to even things like PMD, he constantly ***** with them, hell even in official art that depicts a fierce battle. Darkrai is shown fighting them so often that it's literally not only his most common feat, but his most common way to show up.

But of course, I also get why scaling Darkrai, even only a fraction, to the literal god tiers would be extremely suspect and contextually for the verse makes zero ******* sense, anti-feat or not.

Hence my neutrality, the thing has a fuckton of showings against them to the point there's a very real intent going on, but realistically he should be folded yet isnt.
Maybe something could be worked out for specific Darkrai's? The species is very clearly not made equal with Darkrai like Tobias'.

Either way, neutral on the outcome but both sides do have points in this situation.

 

[SamanPatou]

Leaving the god tiers aside for a second, let's talk about common Pokémon, speaking of what we have for now:
Remember that profiles are about Pokémon being at their maximum peak for the respective form, so feats performed by particularly strong Pokémon should still be good, imho.

Baby stages: I saw the meteor feat being questioned, as we don't see the Cleffas crashing on the ground with the meteors, which leaves the possibilities of them having jumped out before the landing or else. If that gets scrapped, Magby vaporizing a puddle is heat, so no, while Togepi using telekinesis is good, but does it scale?

First stages: Scorbunny's feat is heat, so no, and Ryhorn's might be just 9-A depending on the context. Earth power calc is kinda sus, as it takes a bit too many assumptions to me, with the whole thing about lava traveling for several kilometers in a short timeframe, and it evens mentions that in the anime it's just energy bursting from the ground (it also has not been evaliated).

Second stages: I'm not sure if Dragonair creating a storm is good, as it could not scale due to the """recent""" new policies (which I can't find) and because it may be enviromental destruction. Luckily, we have Dragonair nuking Vermillion City.

Note: Pupitar has always been considered an excepetionally strong second stage Pokémon, reason why it destroying mountains wasn't used to scale other second stages. This thing may extend to other "semi-legendaries" second forms (Dragonair, Shelgon, Metang, Gabite, Zweilous, Sliggo, Hakamo-O and Drakloak) invalidating the scaling from Dragonair's feat.

Third stages: I completely agree that Defog has to go for the reasons that have been extensively told. Rypherior's feat is heat and shouldn't scale to the full eruption, Gyarados doesn't have a timeframe, Octillery's Gunk Shot has broken images (an the calc has not been evaluated), Electivire's is electricy, Kingdra hasn't been calced yet. Magnitude is sus, as even first stage Pokémon can learn it and its strength is random. What remains is some mountain busting statements (from Salamance and I don't remember who else). There's also the problem that if middle-stage pseudo-legendaries don't scale to normal middle-stage Pokémon, the same should be for third stages. Normal third stages could still upscale from Dragonair's feat, though.

What's your opinions on this?

 

[Chariot190]

which leaves the possibilities of them having jumped out before the landing or else

Worse case scenario, we can take Cleffa's mass and use the meteor velocity (jumping off wouldnt change their velocity, that isnt really how that works).

11000mps.
3kg.
0.4 tons.

That would be the Cleffa lowend, it could vary a bit, not all Cleffa are 3kg, that's just the average. So 9-A should be fair at least.

Rhyhorn's feat should be safe as well.
It says he can shatter a skyscraper with a tackle, if it said topple or knock down or even a vague destroy then 9-A could be an option, but shattering? Implies the building gets, well, blown to bits.
"Strong, but not too bright, this Pokémon can shatter even a skyscraper with its charging tackles."

 

[SamanPatou]

Nice, could you put this Cleffa calc in a blog?

Rhyhorn should be good then, I guess, since the absolute strongest first stages should likely be at least on par with a random Rhyhorn.
Would it be 8-B or 8-A?

For semi-legendaries second stages and general third stages, KieranH10 made the Dragonair calc which, if accepted, solidifies a 7-B rating supported by the various mountain busting statements.

We still have to settle something for normal second stage Pokémon, I'm not sure if Piplup's calc should be used, as it gives the same tier of Pupitar toppling mountains.
Drifloon's calc gives even an even higher rating, but it comes from that non-canon D&P manga, if I recall correctly.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Gigantamax Pokemon would probably become 7-A via this calc

 

[SamanPatou]

Someone suggested to use a different volume, has it been done? (I don't know how to read calcs :v)
The whole thing should also be evaluated, but it should still be good.

 

[Chariot190]

I can toss it into a blog yeah.

Don't know what you'd do about Rhyhorn, I'd just take our standard skyscraper mass and apply v.frag to it. Though if you wanna be more specific, you'd have to account for steel, concrete, glass, and a whole bunch of other materials and that's a bit of hassle for me to want to do it so someone is gonna need to.

If someone wants to go through the anime there's definitely a bunch of feats worth calcing, I recall some tier 7 Karp/Gdos feats from the OBD, but just from personal viewing there's a good chunk of feats from some various Pokemon, I can look through some but obviously I'm not gonna sit down and watch 1k episodes.

Though for now, I'll just go through every dex entry and post any worthwhile ones here.

As for the Dragonair calc, there's one glaring issue with it, I'll see if I can find some scans to mitigate it though.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I have calculated the Dragonair feat on Discord, and it got around City

 

[Chariot190]

Post your version. I'm having issues finding some scans of Vermillion that are not only consistent but show the layout with the dragonair feat.
The calc above is decent, but it doesnt take into account the foundation and buildings that were vaporized, been trying to find a scan of the buildings pre vaporization or post rebuild that way we know how big they were and how many.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Here's my version: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Screenshot_20210228-125154_Discord.jpg

Screenshot

 

[Chariot190]

Can you factor the buildings he destroyed as well or at the very least the foundation?
That's like half the feat.

 

[Chariot190]

Here's some dex entries for Dragonair.

"A mystical Pokémon that exudes a gentle aura. Has the ability to change climate conditions."
"If its body takes on an aura, the weather changes instantly. It is said to live in seas and lakes."
"Dragonair stores an enormous amount of energy inside its body. It is said to alter weather conditions in its vicinity by discharging energy from the crystals on its neck and tail."
"A Dragonair stores an enormous amount of energy inside its body. It is said to alter the weather around it by loosing energy from the crystals on its neck and tail."

It can change the weather, and it does it by using it's own energy/power. Probably a case where a weather feat would indeed scale to AP and other attacks.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Would The Creation Trio lose their Infinite speed? The first feat is from Mystery Dungeon and the second feat is from the non-canon D&P manga

 

[Thelastmlg]

Didn't it also happen in one of the movies, the darkrai one?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Would The Creation Trio lose their Infinite speed? The first feat is from Mystery Dungeon and the second feat is from the non-canon D&P manga

Nothing says the latter is non canon as pointed out before. It’s the same as the Adventures manga in what it does and we have no reason to disregard it because of that.

Besides that, I know of something else that could save their infinite speed without it, but that will need its own thread too. I’m a bit busy atm to make it but i’ll try and get it up soon as I can.

 

[QuasiYuri]

As of now both would be non-canon. Pokemon Adventures is canon because of the severals thing attached to it as THE Pkmn manga. Comparing others one to it would be meaningless.

 

[Arceus0x]

idk about darkrai. he's extremely inconsistent with portrayals. Maybe we should just divide his profiles or sth, keeping the canon version at 5-B, possibly higher.

2-B lucario requires ZA HANDO

I think i brought it up before but, idk specifically on which episode though i think i can find it a bit later, but there was some mention of two pokemon starting a fight (frosslass and sth else) and that caused a violent blizzard that forced the airport to heavily delay the flights. It was in sun and moon, gotta find it later. How strong does a blizzard need to be for an airport to close down? could be feat, could be shi-

ok, next. I believe we need to re-evaluate the copperajah feat. You see...the pokemon isn't british, it is indian. Remember how england dragged many artifacts from india for itself to the point where the national indian museum is smaller than the one in england? a copper elephant with peculiar style and coloring seems to fit the mark. On another note, there aren't many mountains and landscapes to terraform in england, meanwhile India has some of the talles peaks in the world as it has some of the tallest parts of the himalayan mountains and there are more than enough landscapes to terraform. Also, if we do get the result, we need to divide it in 4 as through what we have seen g-max scales to around 4x the normal pokemon. even if you can't accept indian copperajah just keep the calc in mind.

ludicolo summoned rain super fast in pokemon journeys, could be a bit helpful

what is the biggest cave/ area that a Flash move can illuminate? could be useful for low tiers.

we should deal with magnitude feat.
also tyranitar stomping the ground and causing earthquakes to crumble mountains seems big. I heard of suggestions by others about that happening.

might add some random statements a bit later.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Fragmentating mount fuji (mount silver) is 7-A+, since it says great mountains and tupitar is found on silver, could we use that? Or are the 7-A stuff complete outliers With no redemption now?

And i heard that they still have 7-B feats, violent fraging baseline mountains (which could be what making a nest is) is 7-B.

 

[SamanPatou]

Pupitar was calculated as high 7-C long ago, the most solid 7-B feat for the third stages is Dragonair nuking Vermillion City.
Using flash is iffy, as its the same of using Defog.
Several Pokémon have statements about destroying and/or scorching mountains, such as Tyranitar, Gyarados, Salamance, Gigalith and I think more.

 

[Arceus0x]

flash is literally using energy to continuously light up entire caves. It is a weak attack so logically i think it should be calced in case we have a good feat. Either way it won't give us anything good most likely.

 

[SamanPatou]

Using flash is no different from using defog, it is the same concept.
And with it even baby Pokémon can, in a instant and with a single use, illuminate forever multiple floor of entire caves and mountains.

 

[Ionliosite]

Nothing says the latter is non canon as pointed out before.

That's literally not how burden of proof works. You need something pointing out it IS, not that it isn't.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's literally not how burden of proof works. You need something pointing out it IS, not that it isn't.

Except I literally did do that?

 

[Ionliosite]

... You only said that it is the same PokéSpe, without providing the evidence of that being the case. You can't assume that just because it is also a manga it means it is the same as the manga with elements that have slipped into the games and that Tajiri himself considers the truest version of his vision for the Pokémon world.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, it litteraly is the same kind of proof as "it's canon because there's pokemons in it".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

... You only said that it is the same PokéSpe, without providing the evidence of that being the case.

It being the same as Adventures, aka the games, IS the case of it being the same. And I already provided that earlier.

It is still using the games/mangas main plot, Team Galactic’s goal of using Dialga / Palkia for creating the world Cyrus wants. Which is, you know, the main plot point of Gen 4 for both the manga and games.

You can't assume that just because it is also a manga it means it is the same as the manga with elements that have slipped into the games and that Tajiri himself considers the truest version of his vision for the Pokémon world.

Nice job of putting words in my mouth. I never once said it’s the same just because it’s a manga. I argue it’s the same for using the said elements that slip from the games.

Yeah, it litteraly is the same kind of proof as "it's canon because there's pokemons in it".

And again, that’s not what my argument used for it’s canonicity.

 

[Ionliosite]

It is still using the games/mangas main plot, Team Galactic’s goal of using Dialga / Palkia for creating the world Cyrus wants. Which is, you know, the main plot point of Gen 4 for both the manga and games.

You've already been told before that this isn't evidence of being canon, our standards on canonicity literally teld us this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You've already been told before that this isn't evidence of being canon, our standards on canonicity literally teld us this.

Yeah, standards that don't mean the same thing for a verse that treats different canons as part of it's canonicity, which is the case here for this verse's cosmology.

There is absolutely zero reason to disregard it when it's canon uses the literal main aspect of the game's story & events. And if that's supposedly not enough, then what is? What more is needed?

 

[Ionliosite]

standards that don't mean the same thing

Standards are the same for all verse. Again, make your thread for changing the standards or drop this argument, since it goes directly against what the standards we currently hold in place abide.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Standards are the same for all verse.

They aren't. Case by Case basis is a thing.

Again, make your thread for changing the standards or drop this argument, since it goes directly against what the standards we currently hold in place abide.

It really doesn't because, again, different verses, different contexts and different circumstances exist. Which is common sense.

 

[Ionliosite]

They aren't. Case by Case basis is a thing.

Our canon standards are the same for all verses. The fact you don't know this tells me you don't even know what the standards are.

It really doesn't because, again, different verses, different contexts and different circumstances exist. Which is common sense.

Which again, only applies if you change the standards, because otherwise, there's absolutely nothing that suddenly make Pokémon an exception to our rules.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Our canon standards are the same for all verses. The fact you don't know this tells me you don't even know what the standards are.

The Canon page doesn't exactly support you here, and if it does, specify where on the page do these "standards" exist. Because I certainly don't see them.

Which again, only applies if you change the standards, because otherwise, there's absolutely nothing that suddenly make Pokémon an exception to our rules.

Sure thing. I still plan to make the thread, but again, common sense and case by case basis should say that I shouldn't even have to do that. A verse with its cosmology and source material that acknowledges different canons as part of said material should very much be an exception compared to verses that do not do the same thing.

And its quite obvious that not all verses treat canon in the same fashion.

 

[Ionliosite]

Well then, I'll wait for you to make that thread. Until then, your argument is invalid.