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Undertale verse is just 2-B, not 2-C

Andytrenom said:
Thing is, most combinations of killing and sparing would not be anything different than "I killed everyone but spared a random number of monsters" which he could just count as one of the possible things he could do, there isn't really anything he would hope to get out of performing every single kill/spare combination in the sample space, so it's kind of fishy to assume he did based off him getting bored and saying "he did everything"

This is taken a high end interpretation out of not remotely enough evidence
Click to expand...
Not feeling to strongly about the scale one way or the other but I probably should address this. For Flowey to have seen every piece of dialogue possible from monsters to the point that they were likened to NPCs, killing every monster in different combinations might be necessary. There will obviously be different reactions to certain people dying and others being spared that are evoked in all his different runs.

Cool with whatever is decided as long as it's purely 2-B though.
 
I guess reset = timeline are mostly from Sans's statements, also; I am fine with it:

I do agree the 2-B calculation looks high-end so I am hesitant on agreeing on this scale; nonetheless, I think I could agree with 2-B rating in at a lower-scale.

I think Frisk should be a solid 2-B as well; he can survive Flowey's attacks and could damage Flowey (albeit it was low damage) ; in the earlier part of the battle, the souls only healed Frisk; the souls lowered Flowey's defense after being free.
 
Changed Frisk to just 2-B

However if the calc seems High-end what should a change be? Making instead of "2^104" just a "104*2" for each possibility of killing/sparing a monster?
 
Regardless of it looking high-end though, there's no other way that would have Flowey explictly and repeatedly stating how every possible thing that could be done in the underground was done by him. Him killing them in every possible combination would allow him to hear every possible way the underground could have reacted to the news of characters deaths. Same has how he states he's heard every possible bit of dialogue.
 
Planck69 said:
If there are 2 monsters then 4 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.
If there are 3 monsters then 8 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.

If there are 4 monsters then 16 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.

If there are 5 monsters then 32 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.

If there are 6 monsters then 64 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.

If there are 7 monsters then 128 possibilities exist for any or all of them being alive or dead.

....I think it would be higher.
Click to expand...
Even if I mean, this makes sense
 
There are two reasons why they weren't plain 2-B.

First of all, we can't be sure that Chara destroyed all timelines with a single strike. You can't use "suddenly they all stop" for something beyond linear time (the whole timeline), so for all we know each one was destroyed one at a time. Still though, Asriel was destroying "the world" after he destroyed the timeline, so surely they still scale to all timelines?

Yes (OF shouldn't but whatever), but there is one more problem: we don't know there are that many timelines:

Another problem is that there is the possibility of there being only 100 timelines (per fun points). This, beyond the fact that the only actual differentiation between save files is fun points, is supported by Sans saying that timelines are "jumping left and right". If every save made a different timeline while the one before the save is just left there, that wouldn't work.

There has to be something that lets Flowey and Frisk go back in time without making a new one, and save and loading could very easily be that, which would make Flowey's ability far lesser impressive.
 
All the lost files are of the gameplay, like who you spared or what items you have. All of which happens in a single timeline, so that is not much of a proof for anything.
 
Solid 2-B is fine.

Frisk scaling to it isn't but that's part of another, much bigger thread, so.

Yes Chara scales to it at all because

1. While not explicitly told, it's heavily implied that Chara destroyed the entire game (The game's window being targered in that one attack, Chara encouraging the player to move on to another world, implied to be other games, Chara's whole theme of levelling up in one game and then moving on to the next). Obviously alternate timelines are just part of the game.

2. Sans stating that "everything ends" in his Genocide quote, despite the fact that he was talking about several timelines. It's vague but I do think it does hint towards that.

3. Adding to the above, we know that Sans doesn't do shit usually because he knows of resets, and that nothing has real concequences. He only steps up in the Genocide route because, in his own words, "...[he] can't afford to not care anymore." This further implies that Chara's final goal is much wider than the scope of a single timeline.

4. The player can easily access other timelines under normal circumstances. If Chara simply nuked a few timelines they could just access others left behind. The end of Genocide makes it painfully clear that there is absolutely nothing left in the whole world.

5. We know what a singular timeline bust is in Undertale, that being the fight against Asriel. And it's clearly not that.

tl;dr Ricsi go downplay what actually matters. Like 10-C Frisk.
 
Saikou, you disagree with Frisk powerscaling to the 2-B; if so, can you give a quick summary why?
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
tl;dr Ricsi go downplay what actually matters. Like 10-C Frisk.
Click to expand...
You didn't really give much of a reason why it should be assumed that every reloading of a save makes a completely new timeline though.

And if it doesn't, then the number proposed goes down quiet drastically regardless.

I also feel that each FUN point being it's own timeline is reasonable, but there is not much for that so I'm fine for not accepting it.
 
Andytrenom said:
Elizhaa said:
I got a question what is the evidence that stated that SAVE and LOAD creates a timeline or reset = timelines; this point look important to Content Revision thread's proposal?
Click to expand...
SAVE and LOAD is in-universe time reversal, everything that happens after using it is a separate timeline to what happened before
Click to expand...
Well, I explained in this thread how it's just the same timeline being changed over and over again, without creating new ones. I can't say much more about it here as I would need to make a thread to downgrade other characters first, but I believe this was something worth pointing out.
 
Yeah, any form of time reversal (such as Frisk's time reload) usually prevents paradoxes that might lead to creating alternate timelines, so its always the same timeline regardless of Sans alternate dialouges due to his Retrocognition (opposite of Precognition).

@Strym Anyway, time to point out somethings that can't be included in this:

  • Item & Equipment Possibilities: Clearly Flowey has never used any item nor has he equipped them because the dude doesn't even have hands & has no use for them anyways.
  • Deltarune: If it wasn't explicitly mentioned before, Toby Fox considers Deltarune as an alternate universe to Undertale and will leave Undertale untouched.
Now, for things that has not been pointed out yet:

  • There's at least 93 Neutral Endings found here: https://apptrigger.com/2018/01/04/undertale-true-speedrunner-completes/
  • Undertale's Nintendo Switch Version with Mad Mew Mew, which kind of creates a new timeline
  • There's probably a better way to calculate the Fun Values but I'll get to that in a later time
  • And then there's that Clam Girl's statem...well, I'm really not sure if that's a good idea point that out but you know what I'm talking about.
 
Magi Hussie said:
  • Deltarune: If it wasn't explicitly mentioned before, Toby Fox considers Deltarune as an alternate universe to Undertale and will leave Undertale untouched.
Click to expand...
And how that doesen't incluse DR in the UT multiverse?
 
I'm just saying, there isn't a timeline for all possible things that can be done. Arguably for many endings, but even that can't be for certain,sincce Flowey never escapes and would be able to just load whenever.

There certainly is no proof for a timeline for all possibilities to get an "endless" rating like some imply. I am not saying they are only Low 2-C, but Flowey could have done everything he deems as actually worthy of a full reset in a hundred, a thousand or a million resets.

Hence the current rating.
 
Magi Hussie said:
  • Item & Equipment Possibilities: Clearly Flowey has never used any item nor has he equipped them because the dude doesn't even have hands & has no use for them anyways.
  • There's at least 93 Neutral Endings found here: https://apptrigger.com/2018/01/04/undertale-true-speedrunner-completes/
  • Undertale's Nintendo Switch Version with Mad Mew Mew, which kind of creates a new timeline
Click to expand...
Anyway, counted this, corrected the blog
 
Also, I found this reddit post which is the only possible evidence of Undertale being connected to Deltarune and...oh wow, this might explain quite a lot of things:

  • The covered object is an actual time machine
  • Deltarune is basically the future version of Undertale
  • Suzy is Susie and used to be around Frisk's age in Undertale
  • Sans & Papyrus arrived to Undertale from the future for some unknown reasons...weird.
  • The Mystery Man reappears in a location somewhere in the town where Deltarune takes place after your previous encounter with them
  • Asriel decides not to transform back to a flower, grew up as a young adult and heads for college in the Pacifist Route (if Toby acknowledges that reference from reddit, then he got a lot of explaining to do)
 
Until now these are just theories, Toby stated that DR is a timeline inside the Undertale multiverse and nothing more
 
Take that as a grain of salt, if Toby Fox provides more evidence in Deltarune, that's when we take that in account. So until then, don't factor it in the number of timelines just yet.

Other than that, like I said, you can't include the item & equipment possibilities for Flowey due to his physical incapabilities as a flower and all.
 
Magi Hussie said:
@Strym I'm not sure if I see that change on your blog yet because it's still mentioned on one of your calculations.
Click to expand...
Oh, you mean the DR one, well, not that changes much, there are just 3 timelines
 
@StrymULTRA

"Total number of possibilities = (Book Possibilities) * (Monster Possibilities) * (Game possibilities) * (Item possibilities) * (Equipment possibilities) * (FUN value possibilities) = 2 * 4.05648192e31 * 2764800 * 100 = 2.2430722e40 Timelines (2-B)"

Remove the calculations relating to the possibilities that are bolded.
 
Magi Hussie said:
@StrymULTRA
"Total number of possibilities = (Book Possibilities) * (Monster Possibilities) * (Game possibilities) * (Item possibilities) * (Equipment possibilities) * (FUN value possibilities) = 2 * 4.05648192e31 * 2764800 * 100 = 2.2430722e40 Timelines (2-B)"

Remove the calculations relating to the possibilities that are bolded.
Click to expand...
Done
 
I wonder if anyone already mentioned about possible timelines being created if Frisk decides to flee from all fights except the ones that he actually can't? Because there are some noticeable differences in the changes of dialogue for certain characters when you flee (excluding the ones from Undyne ofc).

Total Undertale Monsters you have the capability of killing or sparing (PC version):

  • Ruins: 20 Monsters + 1 (Toriel) = 21
  • Snowdin: 16 Monsters + 1 (Papyrus) = 17
  • Waterfall: 18 Monsters + 1 (Undyne) = 19
  • Hotlands and the Core: 40 Monsters + 1 (Mettaton) = 41
  • Optional Monsters: 2 (Glyde and So Sorry) = 2
  • Genocidal Bosses (1 Boss Monster and 1 non-boss monster but represented as an enemy boss in-game): 2 (Asgore & Sans) = 2
Total Monsters = 21 + 17 + 19 + 41 + 2 + 2 = 102

102 (total monsters) × 2 (killing/sparing) = 204 (Monster Possibilities)

2^(total monsters) does not sound right because you're assuming that all monsters comes in pairs and it would be kind of inaccurate.

Total Undertale Monsters you have the capability of killing or sparing (Nintendo Switch Version):

  • Ruins: 20 Monsters + 1 (Toriel) = 21
  • Snowdin: 16 Monsters + 1 (Papyrus) = 17
  • Waterfall: 17 Monsters + 1 (Undyne) = 18
  • Hotlands and the Core: 40 Monsters + 1 (Mettaton) = 41
  • Optional Monsters (Glyde, So Sorry and Mad Mew Mew) = 3
  • Genocidal Bosses as previously mentioned before (Sans & Asgore) = 2
Total Monsters = 21 + 17 + 18 + 41 + 3 + 2 = 102

2 (Book Possibilities) × 204 (Monster Possibilities) × 2764800 (Game Possibilities) × 100 (Fun Values/Possibilities) = 112,803,840,000 Billion (Total Possibilities in the PC Version of Undertale)

Of course, we have to also double all 4 types of possibilities due to the Nintendo Switch Version having a timeline with Mad Mew Mew instead of Mad Dummy, so yea.

Total Possibilities of both the PC's and the Nintendo Switch's Version = (112,803,840,000)^2 = 1.272471e22 Sextillion (Total Possibilities of both versions).
 
Magi Hussie said:
I wonder if anyone already mentioned about possible timelines being created if Frisk decides to flee from all fights except the ones that he actually can't? Because there are some noticeable differences in the changes of dialogue for certain characters when you flee (excluding the ones from Undyne ofc).
Total Undertale Monsters you have the capability of killing or sparing (PC version):

  • Ruins: 20 Monsters + 1 (Toriel) = 21
  • Snowdin: 16 Monsters + 1 (Papyrus) = 17
  • Waterfall: 18 Monsters + 1 (Undyne) = 19
  • Hotlands and the Core: 40 Monsters + 1 (Mettaton) = 41
  • Optional Monsters: 2 (Glyde and So Sorry) = 2
  • Genocidal Bosses (1 Boss Monster and 1 non-boss monster but represented as an enemy boss in-game): 2 (Asgore & Sans) = 2
Total Monsters = 21 + 17 + 19 + 41 + 2 + 2 = 102

102 (total monsters) × 2 (killing/sparing) = 204 (Monster Possibilities)

2^(total monsters) does not sound right because you're assuming that all monsters comes in pairs and it would be kind of inaccurate.
Click to expand...
No? It just covers every possible way you can kill monsters in the undergound, that is every possible subset of dead monsters that can be obtained from those in the underground. Pairs have nothing to do with it.
 
@Planck If 1 monster gets either killed or spared, then that's 2 possibilities since you are clearly multiplying the number of monsters by the number of possible outcomes of deciding how you should end the fight either through killing or sparing, not the number of possibilities being squared by the number of monsters (it does not work like that).
 
Magi Hussie said:
@Planck If 1 monster gets either killed or spared, then that's 2 possibilities since you are clearly multiplying the number of monsters by the number of possible outcomes of deciding how you should end the fight either through killing or sparing, not the number of possibilities being squared by the number of monsters (it does not work like that).
Click to expand...
If I have say, three monsters then there's eight ways I can go about leaving them alive or dead. Again, you also have to look for every possible combination of deaths since these are all unique individuals. I could kill A and B or F and G, Everyone bar A and Everyone bar B etc.
 
@Planck Flowey did mention only those 2 options, otherwise he would've said that he also ran away from the monsters he encountered.

Another thing, how did you get 8 ways from just 3? That's kind of impossible for this type of scenario.
 
Alright, so we are just going to ignore what I said? That Flowey would not need to make a timeline for everything you guys just listed and plan to list?
 
Magi Hussie said:
Of course, we have to also double all 4 types of possibilities due to the Nintendo Switch Version having a timeline with Mad Mew Mew instead of Mad Dummy, so yea.

Total Possibilities of both the PC's and the Nintendo Switch's Version = (112,803,840,000)^2 = 1.272471e22 Sextillion (Total Possibilities of both versions).
Click to expand...
Uhm, no, as both Mad Mew Mew and Mad Dummy are in the same timeline, I'd say just that the Swich version just rectoned the og UT Timeline and nothing more
 
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