Undertale ( Sans, Undyne, Mettaton NEO, etc. ) Revision

[The_Wright_Way]

Azathoth cleaned that some days ago

Link to that statement?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Uh.... Ctrl + F then "2-A" or simply look at my comment

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Uh.... Ctrl + F then "2-A" or simply look at my comment

Oh, I thought you meant he dubunked the whole thing. My bad.

 

[Anderson2003]

Chara's stats mean nothing. If they did, how could a 99/99 Chara oneshot and pimpslap the shit outta Asgore and Flowey, a 80/80 monster and Flowey, that is one of the top tiers of the verse even without being Omega?

Chara's stats are the only ones in the game that should be questioned due to the way they work. Also, Chara is only shown at the very end of the game. In all other instances, its Frisk, even if under Chara's influence. Frisk begins the game with 0/0 and 20 health. He ends the game with 99/99 and 99 HP. Now let's take this into consideration: Undyne the Undying has 23000 HP and does like, 13 damage per hit, Frisk does solid 1000+ before the end of the game. Then Undyne dies and gives you 1500 exp, while Mettaton NEO gives you 50000 and gets around 1,000,000 damage taken.

Chara's stats are different and are not similar to the Undertale monsters.

EDIT: About the blog, it's pretty good, but he forgot that humanity isnt full of 2-B beings, especially when we discover that there is a 21st century esque world and its like 2016. Only magic adepts and really badass humans were 2-B, like the ones that sacrificed themselves to create the barrier. Mettaton NEO being 2-B due to assumptions is ludicrous, so is Sans' Karmic Retribution thingy assumed there as well. There is no ingame explanation.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

So... will the

Karmic Retribution: Karmic Retribution causes Sans' opponent to take increasing amounts of incremental damage depending on how many people they have hurt whenever the are struck by one of Sans' attacks. It essentially functions as poison damage for one's soul.

be removed?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

How exactly does a 99/99 stomping a 80/80 mean that stats aren't reliable?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So... will the

Karmic Retribution: Karmic Retribution causes Sans' opponent to take increasing amounts of incremental damage depending on how many people they have hurt whenever the are struck by one of Sans' attacks. It essentially functions as poison damage for one's soul.

be removed?

It likely should.

 

[Anderson2003]

How exactly does a 99/99 stomping a 80/80 mean that stats aren't reliable?

Because you are constantly not being stomped by way more powerful beings during all routes. Your ATK and DEF also increase and 80 and is way closer to Absolute Genocide than you'd think since you only go to Lv 20 and 20 is 99/99 after killing Sans, so even in mortal conditions you dont fight them at max power.

If you choose a Pacifist Route, never kill a being and fight Asgore, you won't be oneshotted. You still have to beat him or you'll die. And your ATK and DEF are miserable. I say due to being different species, being completely different in everything and the inconsistency between Frisk and ALL MONSTERS that Humans are scaled differently, or at least should be taken with a good amount of salt.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Because you are constantly not being stomped by way more powerful beings during all routes. Your ATK and DEF also increase and 80 and is way closer to Absolute Genocide than you'd think since you only go to Lv 20 and 20 is 99/99 after killing Sans, so even in mortal conditions you dont fight them at max power.

If you choose a Pacifist Route, never kill a being and fight Asgore, you won't be oneshotted. You still have to beat him or you'll die. And your ATK and DEF are miserable. I say due to being different species, being completely different in everything and the inconsistency between Frisk and ALL MONSTERS that Humans are scaled differently, or at least should be taken with a good amount of salt.

LV doesn't boost stats. Items do. LV is just powerful against monsters because they are weak to it.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Because you are constantly not being stomped by way more powerful beings during all routes. Your ATK and DEF also increase and 80 and is way closer to Absolute Genocide than you'd think since you only go to Lv 20 and 20 is 99/99 after killing Sans, so even in mortal conditions you dont fight them at max power.

If you choose a Pacifist Route, never kill a being and fight Asgore, you won't be oneshotted. You still have to beat him or you'll die. And your ATK and DEF are miserable. I say due to being different species, being completely different in everything and the inconsistency between Frisk and ALL MONSTERS that Humans are scaled differently, or at least should be taken with a good amount of salt.

Undertale stats are non-linear (Azy's blog even mentions that, right after explaining what CHECK stats are), it takes 80 ATK points to destroy a Town, but if you add 19 more points, it will be Multiverse Level.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

With 1 you are Wall level

With 25 you are small town level

 

[Anderson2003]

LV = Love, Level of Violence. As Sans puts it..

"A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt. The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others."

And by stacking LV, as ingame mechanic or whatever, it does boost your HP, AT and DF. At Lv 1, your health is 20. At Lv 19, its 92.

Items do boost your stats by adding DEF, ATK and changing your attack pattern. They are addons though. As in every RPG, Base Stat + Equip Buff = End Stat.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Then Chara stats are... (48 + 99...) 147 of ATK another reason why Undyne isn't Multiversal

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Where did this 48 come from?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Sorry i used in-game stats (10) it's actually 38

 

[Anderson2003]

Damage, Health and Defense are also weird aspects. Frisk has an ASTOUNDINGLY LOW health at max 99. Doggo, one of the first enemies you face in Snowdin, has 70.

Frisk's Damage is Absurdly High for his stats. He constantly racks up to 100, 1000... While all monsters due 20 damage per hit tops.

And for defense, Frisk always takes around 20 damage while monsters take thousands into their face.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Maybe Frisk have rlly high defense with low Hp while Monsters are the opposite

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

You mean Pacifist Frisk? Their power doesn't really come from LV, it comes from DETERMINATION.

 

[Anderson2003]

Again, even Lv 20 Frisk isn't 2-B. That is because at the end of the game, once you kill Flowey, you revive Chara. Chara, NOT Frisk. Chara is supposedly around Lv 9999, like Omega Flowey. She does tons of '9s' as damage to the game/reality itself. And THAT is why she is 2-B.

You, as a player, never reach said heights in the Genocide Run. With immense amounts of Determination and the help of the 6 SOULs, you could HARM Omega Flowey and eventually best him.

Against Asriel, you get absolutely pwned. Seriously, you get dunked on harder than Sans ever did. But with IMMENSE amounts of Determination, all the protagonist light could make you SURVIVE Asriel and make him decide to spare you, not otherwise.

Chara is 2-B. Genocide Frisk isn't, even at LV 20.

 

[Anderson2003]

You mean Pacifist Frisk? Their power doesn't really come from LV, it comes from DETERMINATION.

All power from humans comes from the Determination of their soul. Their incredible will do accomplish what they desire. Pacifist Frisk is determined to save his friends, their SOULs, the Monsters and himself. Genocide Frisk is determined to kill everything that moves. It's what moves them and makes them so powerful. Every Human's source of power is Determination.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Ok, I guess.

 

[Anderson2003]

If you doubt me, listen to Entry Number 5. Ingame info:

"The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... Determinatio."

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I know, I thought you was talking about Pacifist Frisk.

 

[Anderson2003]

Changed the title.

What we got through thus far:

- Sans' Karmic Retribution's ( KR, Karma, whatever ) effectiveness isn't based on one's sins. There is no evidence proving this. It's just his ability.

- Frisk isn't 2-B when fighting Sans, Undying and NEO. Chara and Frisk are only 2-B on their massive "determination" state. Chara when revived, Frisk with help of the 6 SOULs or at the end of True Pacifist.

- Every Undertale attack targets the soul, even if it is physical as their attacks work in a different way. Due to this, Frisk and Chara have soul resistance due to not being oneshotted ( or so I've read ).

- Stats can be used as measure between monsters, but Frisk's own stats are incredibly incosistent and shouldn't be taken into consideration as he is out of place when compared to monsters and how he dominates incredibly powerful monsters ( Asgore and Flowey ) with little advantage while he isn't defeated by them when there is a massive gap between them.

Frisk seems to have Low HP, High Defense due to taking almost no damage and Incredible Attack due to causing over 1000 damage regularly while Monsters are about the opposite, having lots of HP, Defense that varies between monsters ( Mettaton says hi ) and Attacks that are constantly low ( attacks from Asriel at his first stage cause 4 damage to a LV 1 Frisk ).

- Chara ONLY appears at the ending due to every and each monster being killed triggers his revival. Chara is 2-B due to attacking reality itself, having control over timelines, etc. But Chara NEVER fights Undyne, Sans, etc. She only influenced Frisk. Chara is on the same level as Omega Flowey and massively stomps any monster other than Asriel and Omega Flowey.

- Undyne the Undying and Mettaton NEO both are not even close to 2-B. Both under LV 20 Frisk that by no means is near 2-B. They are more powerful than their previous forms ( Normal Undyne and EX ), but both aren't near 2-B or close to that. Undyne used to scale to Chara, but she never fought a LV 20 Frisk who is massively, and I mean MASSIVELY weaker than Chara, that crashes the game with tons of 9's, attacking "reality" itself.

- Determination is present on all human beings. Its a core fundamental of their being and what makes them and their SOUL so powerful. Their will to live and change the course of action to their will is what makes them so strong. The name says it all.

Any objections? I wanna proceed with some other things that need to be revised including a indepth analysis of NEO himself. Most of the things that debunk him are mostly focused at Undyne and her comparison to Frisk at Lv 20. NEO has a intersting fact that is that he was made to exterminate humans and there is some debating I'd like to do regarding him.

 

[Anderson2003]

Bump?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm going to point out that the reason Frisk's stats are inconsistent with the damage s/he can do and takes from monsters is directly due to his LV, which is not reliant from check stats or vice versa.

More killing intent and less empathy means s/he does more damage to monsters and takes less from their attacks. This, combined with their ability to come back and retry fights over and over is what gives him/her the win against Undyne the Undying despite Undyne's stats, which are identical to the stats Chara has when they destroy the game.

Whether or not Chara had multiversal stats when fighting sans is irrelevant, seeing as there is no profile for physical Chara / Genocide Frisk and the profile s/he does have is definetely after they have reached their absolute.

 

[Anderson2003]

I believe someone has mentioned this before, but still, would you please provide a source? I don't doubt it, but it's incredibly weird since the explanation Sans gives of Love never mentions such things. He merely states that you get colder and that you kill easier like a maniac, never that this truly changes your results in battles.

His ability to come back is indeed true and exists as a factor due to Determination, Sans proves this. What is unproven is that she did so against Sans and Undyne. This is gameplay mechanics alone. It's the same as saying the Strongest Street Fighter depends on the player because Blanka could beat Akuma. For all we know, Frisk could've beaten Sans first try. Can't use that as a argument point.

NO. That is WRONG. Chara is NOT 99/99 when she destroys the game. Chara is comparable to Omega Flowey, Omega Flowey is Level 9999, not 20 like 99/99 Frisk is. That is absolutely wrong. Lv 20 Frisk is 99/99. Lv 20 Frisk =/= Chara. Chara is way superior to 99/99 Frisk and almost every Frisk you can think of other than his 2-B moments/miracles.

Once again, I have said this countless times, Chara is 2-B. Chara attacks reality and is only revived as the 2-B being he is at the very single end after every single monster is killed at the genocide neding. Frisk in the Genocide Route ISN'T 2-B at ANY MOMENT. Only Chara. And Chara is not present until you kill Flowey. Sans fights LV19 Frisk, not even the 99/99 Frisk, for that matter. I already explained that before. And Undyne fought an even weaker Frisk.

Yes, precisely. There isn't a profile for Genocide Frisk ( Not Chara. Chara is NOT Genocide Frisk ) because it isn't needed. Genocide Frisk is, like Normal Frisk, up to at the very least 7-C. The difference is, this Frisk stomps "Likely far higher than 7-C" beings. That matters little. What is important is: Sans, Undyne, NEO all got beaten by Frisk and not Chara. They can't hope to stack up to 2-B in no shape or form and more than that: Were beaten by someone WAY lower than that.

Think about it like this: It has a green striped shirt? Its 2-B, attacked reality and messes with timelines. It has a blue striped shirt? Its almost never 2-B, only with the help of the SOULs and with the Determination to save his friends from Asriel.

EDIT: It's pretty clear there is something to left to be explained here. Chara is dead once you fall down to the Ruins. The only thing she does is "influence" you. She doesn't control your body, doensn't act on your regard. She only watches and once you start killing, you awake her and she guides you through everything like Ner'Zhul to Arthas.

Once you kill everybody by your own choice, Chara is revived due to the amounts of power, Determination, whatever you produced by killing. "Your power awakened me from death. My "human soul"... My "determination"... They were not mine, but YOURS." Chara states that he was revived due to your SOUL and Determination and that it wasnt him, basically.

Frisk in the timeline where he decides to kill everyone never gets to 2-B since he never is determined enough to do so (one may even argue saying that he never became 2-B for not having a challenge). So Frisk is always on this tier, above every "Likely far higher than 7-C" on the game. Sans, Undyne, Mettaton NEO cant be measured by comparing themselves to Chara, who is 2-B since they never fought or have stats to compare. They can only be compared to Frisk.

Have I made myself clear?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

NO. That is WRONG. Chara is NOT 99/99 when she destroys the game. Chara is comparable to Omega Flowey, Omega Flowey is Level 9999, not 20 like 99/99 Frisk is. That is absolutely wrong. Lv 20 Frisk is 99/99. Lv 20 Frisk =/= Chara. Chara is way superior to 99/99 Frisk and almost every Frisk you can think of other than his 2-B moments/miracles.

Source on this? When is it ever shown that Chara is LV 9999?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Once again, I have said this countless times, Chara is 2-B. Chara attacks reality and is only revived as the 2-B being he is at the very single end after every single monster is killed at the genocide neding. Frisk in the Genocide Route ISN'T 2-B at ANY MOMENT. Only Chara. And Chara is not present until you kill Flowey. Sans fights LV19 Frisk, not even the 99/99 Frisk, for that matter. I already explained that before. And Undyne fought an even weaker Frisk.

Actually, The Locket and Real Knife give ATK and DEF stats of 99, and it is canon that they at least use the Knife in the fight sans.

 

[Anderson2003]

Chara's level is never shown to be 9999. You seem to misinterpret everything I type. Omega Flowey's is, shown on the "corrupted save file". Chara s comparable to him.

Yes, they give the stats of 99/99. Good, someone finally said that. Now I can show you how deeper this hole goes, because through LOVE only, Frisk only goes as high as 48/14 at LV 20. He beats Sans at 46/14. Undyne the Undying as weaker..

Unless you find a reliable source of your claims ("More killing intent and less empathy means s/he does more damage to monsters and takes less from their attacks") it only proves my point even deeper. Stats are unreliable since you supposedly would beat a possibly 2-B being with 48 ATK and 14 DEF and without the Real Knife and Locket. Explain that.

Also, if everything else is correct ( and it doesn't seem there are contradictions that destroy the argument ), then I'd like to proceed.

 

[Anderson2003]

Here is the image, by the way:

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Chara's level is never shown to be 9999. You seem to misinterpret everything I type. Omega Flowey's is, shown on the "corrupted save file". Chara s comparable to him.
Yes, they give the stats of 99/99. Good, someone finally said that. Now I can show you how deeper this hole goes, because through LOVE only, Frisk only goes as high as 48/14 at LV 20. He beats Sans at 46/14. Undyne the Undying as weaker..

Unless you find a reliable source of your claims ("More killing intent and less empathy means s/he does more damage to monsters and takes less from their attacks") it only proves my point even deeper. Stats are unreliable since you supposedly would beat a possibly 2-B being with 48 ATK and 14 DEF and without the Real Knife and Locket. Explain that.

Also, if everything else is correct ( and it doesn't seem there are contradictions that destroy the argument ), then I'd like to proceed.

Chara is weaker than Omega Flowey though. "I'll become even more powerful than you and your stolen soul"

The source is the books in Snowdin's library. I'm not obligated to take my time finding them for you. Look at them yourself.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

http://imgur.com/a/PPSKX

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Thank you Paulo

 

[Anderson2003]

Yes, he is. But they are still in the same tier hands down (both are 2-B. Omega Flowey destroys and rewinds timelines like nobody's business and Chara attacks "reality itself" and "destroys it"). They at least comparable.

"(Orange Book) Because they are made of magic, monster's bodies are attuned to their SOUL. If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... Um, let's end the chapter here..."

Two things here that shouldn't be mixed up. If a monster doesn't want to fight, he can get instakilled. We know that due to Muffet, Toriel, possibly Asgore? Second thing is that the crueler the enemy's intentions are, the stronger his attacks will be to monsters.

Good. Now, let me ask you.. How can Frisk, at LV1, no kills, beat Asgore? You could lower his defenses, but he was still determined to kill and his name never turns yellow so you can instakill him like Tori and Muffet, so the first factor doesn't apply. Frisk, a child with no extra power or evil intention, can best the King of All Monsters in combat.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Just because they're on the same tier, it doesn't mean they're comparable, specially in 2-B, which can be anywhere between 1000 and infinity.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Good. Now, let me ask you.. How can Frisk, at LV1, no kills, beat Asgore? You could lower his defenses, but he was still determined to kill and his name never turns yellow so you can instakill him like Tori and Muffet, so the first factor doesn't apply. Frisk, a child with no extra power or evil intention, can best the King of All Monsters in combat.

Gameplay. Balance purposes. Extra weapons that give attack but are not connected to LV. Sheer Determination, the same determination that gave him the strength to hurt a 2-B

Pick one.

 

[Anderson2003]

First, Paulo, they have similar feats. Chara detroyed the game itself with countless numbers of timelines while Photoshop Flowey can overwrite, rewind and mess with timelines all he wants.

Second, Monarch, we all know most of these are attempts for excuses. Gameplay is bullochs and not worthy of an explanation, so is Balance Purposes. No weapon gives enough stat to get near Asgore other than the Real Knife. Determination is the only plausible option but there is no mention, showing, anything about Frisk's determination. We can assume he wished to win and go home, however, that is not why he won. He won because Asgore was reluctant to fight, crying during the fight, having his emotions played with and keeping his head down, too weak or afraid to look in the eyes of the child he is supposed to murder.

Well, I have to admit you certainly managed to close me around a bit with the "stats are inconsisent" for Frisk reasoning and argumentation. Almost got me. And you can have that. The point stands still: Undyne the Undying, Mettaton NEO and Sans can't be scaled with the "Chara is LV20, Chara has 99/99 stats and so does Undyne so Undyne is Multiversal" reasoning since Chara, the 2-B, never fought them and they were all defeated by Frisk that is WAAAAAAY below 2-B ( He is, like many monsters, At Least 7-C, likely far higher ).

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Except Check Stats are canon, exist to show how powerful one character is in relation to the others, and there was an entire update done to make them more accurate to each character, so yes, if one character has the same stats as the other, they are equal in power

Chara's stats were 99/99 when they did their 2-B feat because they had the Locket and the Knife and these stats are never shown to change when they reach their absolute so you cannot assume they do. Undyne the Undying's stats are 99/99. So they are as powerful as each other.

Of course sans doesn't scale to 2-B. He never traded blows, and he ignores durability, and gets one shot when he finally is hit.

Mettaton Neo has 9 DEF or something abysmal while Chara's killing intent was incredibly high. Of course he got one shot. However, the reasoning behind his "possibly multiversal" AP, being created as a human eradication device to kill the same humans who created a 2-A barrier is sound reasonings.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Also, keep in mind that Asgore killed Frisk "too many times to count."