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Undertale ( Sans, Undyne, Mettaton NEO, etc. ) Revision

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Wouldn't that make that Omega Flowey situation and outlier, if anything?

I mean, its the one in MANY cases of DEF not being reliable. Different from our buddy Frisk. Also, I could even ignore the DEF stat. The same Frisk that fights Mettaton NEO and oneshots him can't oneshot monsters right before fighting Mettaton NEO in the Genocide Run. They are normal monsters. And yet he oneshots NEO causing around 300.000 damage to 1.000.000. It scales to Small Building anyways, doesn't it darling?
 
Anderson2003 said:
The same Frisk that fights Mettaton NEO and oneshots him can't oneshot monsters right before fighting Mettaton NEO in the Genocide Run. They are normal monsters. And yet he oneshots NEO causing around 300.000 damage to 1.000.000.
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Yeah, that's why Toriel is weaker than Froggit, as shown at the end of the Ruins.


Wait...
 
For her to take that much damage, she had to lower her guard, which means she was weaker than Froggit, yeah, but because she didnt want to fight any longer. And even when you fight her normally, she is holding back

Otherwise, she takes much more damage to kill than Froggit. Sorry, your answer doesnt make sense, darling. Try again.
 
Anderson2003 said:
For her to take that much damage, she had to lower her guard, which means she was weaker than Froggit, yeah, but because she didnt want to fight any longer.
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Do you mean like with NEO?

Who held off on transforming until the last minute?

And refused to even attack you?

lmao


Also, she doesn't. You one-shot her in a genocide run always. You don't have to wait for her to lower her guard.
 
And yet his name wasn't yellow in the sense of lowering his guard on purpose AS mentioned in the Library.

You may even argue that he wasn't truly fighting at his max, but he never lowered his guard. I mean, Mettaton NEO 2-B because assumption human machine guy? Yeah, failed to kill a child. Nice argument there bro.
 
Anderson2003 said:
And yet his name wasn't yellow in the sense of lowering his guard on purpose AS mentioned in the Library.
You may even argue that he wasn't truly fighting at his max, but he never lowered his guard. I mean, Mettaton NEO 2-B because assumption human machine guy? Yeah, failed to kill a child. Nice argument there bro.
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What are you even talking about?

Have you played through the genocide run?

Because this has literally nothing to do with what I said.
 
Anderson2003 said:
I mean, Mettaton NEO 2-B because assumption human machine guy? Yeah, failed to kill a child. Nice argument there bro.
Click to expand...
Nobody is even talking about NEO being 2-B anymore, those stats were already removed.
 
Bro, I don't think you have any idea what's going on.

You said NEO's defense is bad because he dies easier than a normal monster in the area before.

So does genocide run Toriel.

In fact, she dies easier and takes more damage than Froggit.

This happens always, not when she lowers her guard like in a normal run.

Does this mean Toriel has worse defenses than Froggit?

Obviously not.
 
Her dialogue does imply however that the SECOND library fact is on stake on her death... A Human's will to hurt + A Monster not wanting to fight = Mass Damage.

Your argument is not applicable for that example. "You really hate me that much?" "If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill..."

Welp, there you have it. Also what I said before.
 
Your argument is not applicable for that example. "You really hate me that much?" "If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill..."

I genuinely do not understand the weird disconnect in which you are seeing how this doesn't apply to NEO.

>monster doesn't want to fight

>cruel intentions

>powerful SOUL striking with desire to kill

If this means NEO has bad defense, it means every generic monster has better defense than not only NEO, but Toriel, Muffet, base Undyne, etc.

That's why using this to say "NEO has Small Building level durability" doesn't work.
 
Thats just what I meant. Toriel, Muffet, etc. dont apply due to the info we get on the books. NEO does, however, because even if your intention isn't absolutely killing ( as seen in the NEO fight we get if we fail at Hotlands ) and missing horribly, he still dies with a shitton of damage.

Toriel, Muffet, everyone you oneshot are still applicable by what I said.

Also, quoting Monarch on something I agree with him:

"Except Check Stats are canon, exist to show how powerful one character is in relation to the others, and there was an entire update done to make them more accurate to each character, so yes, if one character has the same stats as the other, they are equal in power"

NEO having 9 defense does apply. It is there for some reason. Papyrus has 20 DEF. Toby gave 20 DEF to Papyrus but 9 to NEO to show that Papyrus has more defense than NEO. Is it that hard to understand? Soon, someone will say that Gohan from the Buu Saga is stronger than Teen Gohan because reasons. Ignoring facts is easy, darling.
 
Thats just what I meant. Toriel, Muffet, etc. dont apply due to the info we get on the books. NEO does, however, because even if your intention isn't absolutely killing ( as seen in the NEO fight we get if we fail at Hotlands ) and missing horribly, he still dies with a shitton of damage.

This applies to all mentioned above. None require more than a casual glancing hit to kill. NEO even explicitly mentions that while you'll easily murder Asgore, you won't harm humanity. Not striking at absolute full power does not equal lacking any desire to kill NEO himself.

NEO having 9 defense does apply. It is there for some reason. Papyrus has 20 DEF. Toby gave 20 DEF to Papyrus but 9 to NEO to show that Papyrus has more defense than NEO. Is it that hard to understand? Soon, someone will say that Gohan from the Buu Saga is stronger than Teen Gohan because reasons. Ignoring facts is easy, darling.

So, again, does this mean Omega Flowey has worse defense than everyone in the game, and that Frisk is only hitting him with wall level strength during the fight? Or that Jerry is more durable than Undyne, despite being far easier for a weaker Frisk to kill?
 
There is no logic on defending NEO's defense. Omega Flowey, Jerry, Undyne, almost every monster you could possibly mention doesnt get that Overkilled as NEO. Yes, DEF is inconsistent, but that doesn't mean that NEO's defense can be defended. According to some videos I've searched, absolutely missing the attack causes around 35k damage and hitting him precisely causes almost 1.000k damage. Toriel and Muffet get around 20k damage. Undyne gets around 25k. The only monster that gets MORE overkilled is Sans that gets up to nearly 10.000k damage.

"G... GUESS SHE SHOULD HAVE WORKED MORE ON THE DEFENSES... ..." The game mentioning how shitty Mettaton NEO's defense is.

Stats: "ATK 90 DEF 9." Game once again mentioning how shit Mettaton NEO's defense is.

So, instead, let me answer your question with another question. For how long are you going to defend that NEO's defense ISN'T shit and lower than Papyrus', or are you going to keep going against piles of evidence?
 
There is no logic on defending NEO's defense.

No one is defending NEO's defense. His defense is bad for his level of power, and awful compared to his box form.

What I'm defending is the fact that NEO has no reason to be easier to kill than something like Whimsalot in an actual fight, as defense often seems more like a supplementary stat and not something set, like attack.

NEO having 90 AT and 9 DF means he has ridiculously sub-par defense for something that strong, not that he hits harder than Asgore but can take less punishment than Pyrope.

Side note, but checking again, there are lots of monsters (weak and powerful) with 0 DF that don't die in one hit. Shyren, Moldsmal, and Vulkin are all examples of this.
 
No one is defending NEO's defense. His defense is bad for his level of power, and awful compared to his box form.

His defense is mediocre even comparing to subpar monsters. Just checked a Genocide run, 190 critical damage on Whimsalot at CORE. What really shows that his Defense is garbage is the ridiculous amount of damage that he takes even in comparison to monsters you actually kill in one hit. He takes nearly a million damage. Only Sans takes more damage and he has 1 DEF. This argument however can be countered.

But I agree with you, there are many monsters with 0 DEF and negative defense that can kill you ehem Amalgamates.. But that doesnt change that Mettaton NEO's durability should be scaled to around Papyrus' at best, does it? Otherwise, where would you rank it?
 
Anderson2003 said:
But that doesnt change that Mettaton NEO's durability should be scaled to around Papyrus' at best, does it? Otherwise, where would you rank it?
Click to expand...
Low to mid boss (bosses as in game bosses, not boss monsters) level, most likely.
 
I meant in Tiers, I thought at first that he should be at around Small Building Level. Certainly we can get a better answer than "Unknown". He could be scaled to someone.
 
I guess I can so too. btw sorry, my mistake back there.

I don't think I have ANY OTHER TOPIC for discussion. Everything I found weird and out of place has been revised. This has been a journey..

I guess you guys can lock this now after changing NEO's durability.
 
Did Azathoth agree with changing NEO's durability, and if so, what should it say (explanation included)?
 
Okay. What should it be changed to, and what should the explanation text say?
 
Okay. I will insert the text.
 
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