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Yeah. This thread is only here because I felt like letting sean have his say.
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Ah understood. Well, have a good discussion then. I'll study for tomorrow's test.
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Although this go much quicker if sean didnt seemingly live on the other side of the world from me lol. Good luck btw.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong but dosen't Lesser Dog's head go off the screen?
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Okay, that makes sense
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If there were no ways for clouds to come in, how can trash from the humans' world come down into the Garbage Dump? You ARE right about the rain, but there must be something feeding these "waterfalls", and there would have to have been a way for snow to exist in Snowdin as well.
You're very funny. Just because you say it's a metaphor doesn't mean it wouldn't be nonsensical if it were one, as I've mentioned.
Vulkin has a lot more to do with volcanoes than Asgore has to do with goats.
It actually has a lot of properties of a lazer. Also the sound is Frisk getting the question wrong, not the sound of the laser itself, as all Undertale attacks are soundless and you like the specifics of encounters so much.
Are you saying that Frisk was only medium-Determined when she fought Photoshop Flowey? Besides, all that proves is why we need ATK to have a bearing on Durability, to explain things like these.
I'm not giving a red herring, just because he has a bit lower HP than Snowdrake, Chilldrake, etc doesn't mean he CAN'T be more durable than them. This still takes actual DEF into account.
I hate when I prove something and the next comment the person says exactly what I was trying to prove wrong as fact. Outside sources are a bit sketchy in Undertale mechanics. For example, despite huge amounts of HP, monster warriors still eat mid-combat (ice cream in one hand, sword in the other, as they say) and it heals them, despite nothing in the game healing 100 or more. And just because HP is finite doesn't debunk anything. Frisk still had 20 HP when she fought Asriel, and endgame Frisk with infinite HP would be infinitely more durable than her due to stacking infinities.
Literally the only thing that would change is the knowledge that we'd have to take HP and Durability into account when writing profiles.
It's not headcanon when I have proof. Actually my claim was that Snowdin monsters' Durability was closer than you thought, and did you seriously just say that Undyne isn't more durable than Papyrus? Your claim was that there WAS a Durability gap.
Also I don't see your name next to the post title. How exactly is the thread only here because of you?
You're very funny. Just because you say it's a metaphor doesn't mean it wouldn't be nonsensical if it were one, as I've mentioned.
Vulkin has a lot more to do with volcanoes than Asgore has to do with goats.
It actually has a lot of properties of a lazer. Also the sound is Frisk getting the question wrong, not the sound of the laser itself, as all Undertale attacks are soundless and you like the specifics of encounters so much.
Are you saying that Frisk was only medium-Determined when she fought Photoshop Flowey? Besides, all that proves is why we need ATK to have a bearing on Durability, to explain things like these.
I'm not giving a red herring, just because he has a bit lower HP than Snowdrake, Chilldrake, etc doesn't mean he CAN'T be more durable than them. This still takes actual DEF into account.
I hate when I prove something and the next comment the person says exactly what I was trying to prove wrong as fact. Outside sources are a bit sketchy in Undertale mechanics. For example, despite huge amounts of HP, monster warriors still eat mid-combat (ice cream in one hand, sword in the other, as they say) and it heals them, despite nothing in the game healing 100 or more. And just because HP is finite doesn't debunk anything. Frisk still had 20 HP when she fought Asriel, and endgame Frisk with infinite HP would be infinitely more durable than her due to stacking infinities.
Literally the only thing that would change is the knowledge that we'd have to take HP and Durability into account when writing profiles.
It's not headcanon when I have proof. Actually my claim was that Snowdin monsters' Durability was closer than you thought, and did you seriously just say that Undyne isn't more durable than Papyrus? Your claim was that there WAS a Durability gap.
Also I don't see your name next to the post title. How exactly is the thread only here because of you?
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>This site rn:
>Sans: Small Building Level
>Asgore: Small Building Level
>Hol up
>Sans: Small Building Level
>Asgore: Small Building Level
>Hol up
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"There would have been a way for the clouds to exist in Snowdin"
I should point out that clouds being impossible to exist wasn't one of the main arguments RTP used originally, it was being hyperbolic and Lesser dogs head still being visible the latter of which you have yet to address.
"It has properties of laser"
Like what? You literally just linked the Attack without bothering to explain anything
"Undertale attacks are soundless"
No? Undertale attacks definitely make a sound when hitting you and some of these are distinct from others like Asgore's trident and Asriel's lightning
I should point out that clouds being impossible to exist wasn't one of the main arguments RTP used originally, it was being hyperbolic and Lesser dogs head still being visible the latter of which you have yet to address.
"It has properties of laser"
Like what? You literally just linked the Attack without bothering to explain anything
"Undertale attacks are soundless"
No? Undertale attacks definitely make a sound when hitting you and some of these are distinct from others like Asgore's trident and Asriel's lightning
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Just saw the fight again and realised that all of Asriel's attacks have distinct sound effects. I have no clue why I was singling out the lightning.
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It actually has a lot of properties of a lazer.
Lazers don't wiggle around back and forth like that, that's electricity.
Sans and Asgore can't be the same tier
Why not? Many characters that have immense differences in power are in the same tier since the difference is unquantifiable. The stronger characters usually just have something like "At least Small Building level" or "Small Building level, likely far higher".
Lazers don't wiggle around back and forth like that, that's electricity.
Sans and Asgore can't be the same tier
Why not? Many characters that have immense differences in power are in the same tier since the difference is unquantifiable. The stronger characters usually just have something like "At least Small Building level" or "Small Building level, likely far higher".
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If there were no ways for clouds to come in, how can trash from the humans' world come down into the Garbage Dump? Major false equivalence. Garbage is an object which can be held in a human hand and be thrown directly into the hole, drop down and pile up over time. A massive cloud going towards a hole would travel sideways, have a portion of its mist fit through the hole and then disappear shortly due to such a small part of the cloud going into the underground.
This is assuming that their are many holes which lead to the underground sideways. Majority of the holes in undertale lead straight down. Which a cloud could not get through since clouds can obviously not drop down (unlike garbage. I have no clue how you drew that comparison). On top of that in the intro we see the hole is tucked in a cave where no cloud could possibly reach or get through to the inside of the mountain. In the ending we see that mount ebbot is clearly below the clouds with absolutely none surrounding or approaching the mountain on its level.
And lets not forget that clouds are 2 to 4 kilometres high (two thousand metres). In the original thread Buttersamuri gave a nice calc proving that frisks jet pack goes at 40mph. Frisk can reach the top in under a minute whilst retaining a constant speed. 1 mile = 1609.34 metres. 1609.34 x 40 = 64,373.6. Ans/60 = 1072.89.
This is how tall mount ebbot would be in metres assuming frisk would take 1 minute to reach the top of the mountain. Not even close to getting the summit in range of the clouds let alone the middle layer. You cant even argue that frisk started at a higher level on the mountain as he was on the lowest floor at that point. Also im pretty sure their is a way to calc mount ebotts size and i highly doubt it reaches cloud height. Even if it did, it would have to be way above it when you consider that lesser dog and snowdin were actually nearer to the side of the mountain where the ceiling would be even lower.
Conclusions:
-Mount ebott is not cloud height at all
-Lesser dogs calc by default useless and guesswork
-Clouds from the outside have absolutely no way of getting into the underground from the outside
-At best only tiny clouds could fit through the holes if any (other than the exit from asgores room) enter the mountain sideways
-Lesser dogs head is blatantly visible and intentional as explained by the op
-Lesser dogs statement is 100% a hyperbole
Something must be filling the waterfall/it snows in snowdi We dont know how this waterfall flows in the first place. Regardless rain is not enough to feed a waterfall nor have we ever seen it rain in any of the water. Also snow in snowdin is magical. Not only has it ever snowed once but the snow has shown many non snow like properties such as, being able to respawn in the form of a snowball out of thin air, ice being able to form in some places whilst lakes appear in other areas just next to it, the same snow appearing in the hotlands etc. There are also several other ways it could have formed. It could have formed naturally and retained itself due to its environment, it could have been formed by the numerous snow based monsters everywhere etc.
You're very funny. Just because you say it's a metaphor doesn't mean it wouldn't be nonsensical if it were one, as I've mentioned.
Definition of a metaphor:
- a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
- "a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else." This is literally lesser dogs statement. The statement uses the term "approaching the realm of clouds" to symbolise reaching new heights. You have literally given no reason for the language to be nonsensical in a joking metaphorical context other than repeatedly saying that it is. Stop trying to appeal to repetition, provide evidence/logical reasoning or concede.
Vulkin has a lot more to do with volcanoes than Asgore has to do with goats. And what about how tsunderplane has to do with planes? How sans has to do with skeletons? How froggit has to do with frogs? Please read my full posts. You are only looking at sections of them.
It actually has a lot of properties of a lazer. Also the sound is Frisk getting the question wrong, not the sound of the laser itself, as all Undertale attacks are soundless and you like the specifics of encounters so much. Wtf? You linked me to it and didnt even explain why it has properties of a laser. Ive already explained to you why that functions as electricity. Here is papyrus getting an electric shock and making the sound effect in "the electricity maze". Here is mettaton zapping you and making the exact same noise that the electric shock did earlier. On the tile that gives you an electric shock, it makes the exact same sound effect. How clear does it have to be for you to realise that mettatons attack is electricity?
Also I don't see your name next to the post title. How exactly is the thread only here because of you? "Ill let him have his say and give him time. Regardless of whether he is insane or trolling, he has the right to his opinion. Although it is best he makes a new thread because this one needs to be closed (and have tier 2 profiles along with sans locked up)." -my post on the original thread
Sans and asgore in the same tier If we assume sans to be three times baseline (way above the energy frisk tanked) and say asgore is 8 times sans level (greater than the ap gap to one shot) he would not even be small building level+. There is a reason I did not give asgore an at least rating. The only ones who can even be justified in such a rating are mettaton neo (ap only) and undyne the undying.
This is assuming that their are many holes which lead to the underground sideways. Majority of the holes in undertale lead straight down. Which a cloud could not get through since clouds can obviously not drop down (unlike garbage. I have no clue how you drew that comparison). On top of that in the intro we see the hole is tucked in a cave where no cloud could possibly reach or get through to the inside of the mountain. In the ending we see that mount ebbot is clearly below the clouds with absolutely none surrounding or approaching the mountain on its level.
And lets not forget that clouds are 2 to 4 kilometres high (two thousand metres). In the original thread Buttersamuri gave a nice calc proving that frisks jet pack goes at 40mph. Frisk can reach the top in under a minute whilst retaining a constant speed. 1 mile = 1609.34 metres. 1609.34 x 40 = 64,373.6. Ans/60 = 1072.89.
This is how tall mount ebbot would be in metres assuming frisk would take 1 minute to reach the top of the mountain. Not even close to getting the summit in range of the clouds let alone the middle layer. You cant even argue that frisk started at a higher level on the mountain as he was on the lowest floor at that point. Also im pretty sure their is a way to calc mount ebotts size and i highly doubt it reaches cloud height. Even if it did, it would have to be way above it when you consider that lesser dog and snowdin were actually nearer to the side of the mountain where the ceiling would be even lower.
Conclusions:
-Mount ebott is not cloud height at all
-Lesser dogs calc by default useless and guesswork
-Clouds from the outside have absolutely no way of getting into the underground from the outside
-At best only tiny clouds could fit through the holes if any (other than the exit from asgores room) enter the mountain sideways
-Lesser dogs head is blatantly visible and intentional as explained by the op
-Lesser dogs statement is 100% a hyperbole
Something must be filling the waterfall/it snows in snowdi We dont know how this waterfall flows in the first place. Regardless rain is not enough to feed a waterfall nor have we ever seen it rain in any of the water. Also snow in snowdin is magical. Not only has it ever snowed once but the snow has shown many non snow like properties such as, being able to respawn in the form of a snowball out of thin air, ice being able to form in some places whilst lakes appear in other areas just next to it, the same snow appearing in the hotlands etc. There are also several other ways it could have formed. It could have formed naturally and retained itself due to its environment, it could have been formed by the numerous snow based monsters everywhere etc.
You're very funny. Just because you say it's a metaphor doesn't mean it wouldn't be nonsensical if it were one, as I've mentioned.
Definition of a metaphor:
- a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
- "a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else." This is literally lesser dogs statement. The statement uses the term "approaching the realm of clouds" to symbolise reaching new heights. You have literally given no reason for the language to be nonsensical in a joking metaphorical context other than repeatedly saying that it is. Stop trying to appeal to repetition, provide evidence/logical reasoning or concede.
Vulkin has a lot more to do with volcanoes than Asgore has to do with goats. And what about how tsunderplane has to do with planes? How sans has to do with skeletons? How froggit has to do with frogs? Please read my full posts. You are only looking at sections of them.
It actually has a lot of properties of a lazer. Also the sound is Frisk getting the question wrong, not the sound of the laser itself, as all Undertale attacks are soundless and you like the specifics of encounters so much. Wtf? You linked me to it and didnt even explain why it has properties of a laser. Ive already explained to you why that functions as electricity. Here is papyrus getting an electric shock and making the sound effect in "the electricity maze". Here is mettaton zapping you and making the exact same noise that the electric shock did earlier. On the tile that gives you an electric shock, it makes the exact same sound effect. How clear does it have to be for you to realise that mettatons attack is electricity?
Also I don't see your name next to the post title. How exactly is the thread only here because of you? "Ill let him have his say and give him time. Regardless of whether he is insane or trolling, he has the right to his opinion. Although it is best he makes a new thread because this one needs to be closed (and have tier 2 profiles along with sans locked up)." -my post on the original thread
Sans and asgore in the same tier If we assume sans to be three times baseline (way above the energy frisk tanked) and say asgore is 8 times sans level (greater than the ap gap to one shot) he would not even be small building level+. There is a reason I did not give asgore an at least rating. The only ones who can even be justified in such a rating are mettaton neo (ap only) and undyne the undying.
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Ill have to get on to the whole hp thing later because that segment is going off the rails and i dont have much time here right now. Even if you are right about that part, it would only give some of the characters an "at least" rating and wouldnt upgrade them.
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That wasn't my point. My point was that there were obviously some sort of other holes in the mountain for that to happen, which you said didn't exist. besides I'm pretty sure clouds would eventually get in even if the inside didn't meet the conditions for clouds to form in the first place.
We actually only see one hole that goes straight down in Undertale. We still see sunlight so the hole isn't in that much of a cave. Neither of the exits are near the top of the mountain, so they don't have to be near the cloud layer.
I'm not going to argue that Frisk started at a higher level on the mountain. I'm going to argue that Frisk didn't even get to the next level since there's no proof that Frisk even passed a floor.
Actually, Snowdin was snowy even millennia ago before monsters were even involved. And the snow in Snowdin only showed non-snowlike properties inside of puzzles. Actually, there is no non-frozen lake in Snowdin. The only non-frozen body of water shown is a river that runs through Snowdin, which it presumably doesn't start in. And the snow can exist in Hotland because of how insanely cold Snowdin, and thus it's snow, is.
Are you saying that makes it sensical?
It's not appealing to repitition when something requires the same answer over and over. There's even less of a reason to say it's a metaphor or anything, that's not a saying I've ever heard of and it's too specific to be one.
Tsunderplane actually has a lot to do with planes. She even explodes like one. In fact these things having to do with each other only proves my point.
It's all in one straight line and isn't arced in any way like electricity is. And didn't I just tell you that the sound effect is from you getting the question wrong and not from the laser? I know where the sound is from.
Oh, I see. Although you aren't the only one who wanted this.
Except Asgore isn't 8 times Sans's level. He's 80 times Sans's level, going by STATs and even ignoring HP.
We actually only see one hole that goes straight down in Undertale. We still see sunlight so the hole isn't in that much of a cave. Neither of the exits are near the top of the mountain, so they don't have to be near the cloud layer.
I'm not going to argue that Frisk started at a higher level on the mountain. I'm going to argue that Frisk didn't even get to the next level since there's no proof that Frisk even passed a floor.
Actually, Snowdin was snowy even millennia ago before monsters were even involved. And the snow in Snowdin only showed non-snowlike properties inside of puzzles. Actually, there is no non-frozen lake in Snowdin. The only non-frozen body of water shown is a river that runs through Snowdin, which it presumably doesn't start in. And the snow can exist in Hotland because of how insanely cold Snowdin, and thus it's snow, is.
Are you saying that makes it sensical?
It's not appealing to repitition when something requires the same answer over and over. There's even less of a reason to say it's a metaphor or anything, that's not a saying I've ever heard of and it's too specific to be one.
Tsunderplane actually has a lot to do with planes. She even explodes like one. In fact these things having to do with each other only proves my point.
It's all in one straight line and isn't arced in any way like electricity is. And didn't I just tell you that the sound effect is from you getting the question wrong and not from the laser? I know where the sound is from.
Oh, I see. Although you aren't the only one who wanted this.
Except Asgore isn't 8 times Sans's level. He's 80 times Sans's level, going by STATs and even ignoring HP.
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And the snow can exist in Hotland because of how insanely cold Snowdin, and thus it's snow, is.
This doesn't make sense as an argument. Initially being cold doesn't stop something from melting. Things near absolute zero still warm up to fairly normal temperatures pretty quickly.
This doesn't make sense as an argument. Initially being cold doesn't stop something from melting. Things near absolute zero still warm up to fairly normal temperatures pretty quickly.
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Alright. Lets get down to business.
Hp and attack scaling
Frisk was able to reduce floweys defence to 0 and not one shot him, making attack factor in with defenceThis is ignoring the fact that
1. Flowey has no established attack in the first place, coupled with the fact that his durability is actually greater than his striking strength.
2. Frisk at this point is unfathomably superior to his normal self. 0 defence from his perspective is unquantifiable and could mean anything from the perspective of a lower determined frisk.
3. Frisk even when he gains the real knife in genocide with 99 attack, does not gain any boost to his defences at all. Outside sources does not change anything. There is literally no reason for frisks attack and hp to function in a completely different way from everyones elses. Monsters dont heal during combat. Im pretty sure you made that up.
Hp being used for scaling Hp just shows how close an enemy (or you) is to death. The only thing in verse which affects how much physical/numerical damage you take is the amount of defence you have. Defence is the only thing which lowers the value of someones attack as you said before and therefore is the only thing that can be considered as durability. Again, hp is not cannon for scaling. It has never been established within verse outside of mentioning how you have recovered those points (which again, just shows how close you are to death). On top of this, by your logic frisk would have been one shotted by asriel since his hp of 20 would lower his defence immensely.
Undyne and papyrus Ive never claimed that undyne is more durable than papyrus.
Hp being finite doesnt change anything No. Hp is a linear number which is linearly affected and depleted in game. If hp were used for scaling then asgore would scale to photoshop flowey. Just to show how illogical this type of scaling is.
Vulkins stats.
Tsunderplanes stats.
Both fight alongside eachother. Vulkin has far lower hp. 25 attack (same as vulkins) and zero defence.
tier 7 undertale
That wasn't my point. My point was that there were obviously some sort of other holes in the mountain for that to happen, which you said didn't exist. besides I'm pretty sure clouds would eventually get in even if the inside didn't meet the conditions for clouds to form in the first place. There is literally no way a cloud can get into a hole which has a downwards drop. And there is no way enough clouds could make it through a mountain with holes of that size to form a cloud layer. We actually only see one hole that goes straight down in Undertale. We still see sunlight so the hole isn't in that much of a cave. Neither of the exits are near the top of the mountain, so they don't have to be near the cloud layer.
I'm not going to argue that Frisk started at a higher level on the mountain. I'm going to argue that Frisk didn't even get to the next level since there's no proof that Frisk even passed a floor. Okay. To reach cloud height the next two floors ceilings would still need to be more than half a kilometre above the ground.
Actually, Snowdin was snowy even millennia ago before monsters were even involved. The scan doesn't even mention snow. It just references the fact it was cold.
And the snow in Snowdin only showed non-snowlike properties inside of puzzles. So?
Actually, there is no non-frozen lake in Snowdin. The only non-frozen body of water shown is a river that runs through Snowdin, which it presumably doesn't start in. There are multiple grounds in snowdin made of solid ice which could only form in that fashion through small lakes.
And the snow can exist in Hotland because of how insanely cold Snowdin, and thus it's snow, is. Even if that snow was somehow as cold as liquid nitrogen, it would still melt in the hotlands which can make water evaporate.
Are you saying that makes it sensical? It's not appealing to repitition when something requires the same answer over and over. There's even less of a reason to say it's a metaphor or anything, that's not a saying I've ever heard of and it's too specific to be one. It is appeal to repetition if you make the same claim without giving evidence to back it up. It is "realm of clouds" is not too specific to be a metaphor. Ive just explained by comparing to a definition why it is metaphorical language
Tsunderplane actually has a lot to do with planes. She even explodes like one. In fact these things having to do with each other only proves my point. Exploding does not make tsunnderplane a literal plane. Them only having to do with one does not give them the exact same properties. They only represent objects like planes and volcanoes and use magical attacks to visually replicate what those objects can display.
It's all in one straight line and isn't arced in any way like electricity is. And didn't I just tell you that the sound effect is from you getting the question wrong and not from the laser? I know where the sound is from. Because he is shooting it at you. No laser makes a zig zag shape either. The sound is not from the question being wrong. The sound is the standard electrocution/shock noise used in undertale.
Except Asgore isn't 8 times Sans's level. He's 80 times Sans's level, going by STATs and even ignoring HP. Stats are not linear. Defence just negs the amount of damage you receive to a degree.
Hp and attack scaling
Frisk was able to reduce floweys defence to 0 and not one shot him, making attack factor in with defenceThis is ignoring the fact that
1. Flowey has no established attack in the first place, coupled with the fact that his durability is actually greater than his striking strength.
2. Frisk at this point is unfathomably superior to his normal self. 0 defence from his perspective is unquantifiable and could mean anything from the perspective of a lower determined frisk.
3. Frisk even when he gains the real knife in genocide with 99 attack, does not gain any boost to his defences at all. Outside sources does not change anything. There is literally no reason for frisks attack and hp to function in a completely different way from everyones elses. Monsters dont heal during combat. Im pretty sure you made that up.
Hp being used for scaling Hp just shows how close an enemy (or you) is to death. The only thing in verse which affects how much physical/numerical damage you take is the amount of defence you have. Defence is the only thing which lowers the value of someones attack as you said before and therefore is the only thing that can be considered as durability. Again, hp is not cannon for scaling. It has never been established within verse outside of mentioning how you have recovered those points (which again, just shows how close you are to death). On top of this, by your logic frisk would have been one shotted by asriel since his hp of 20 would lower his defence immensely.
Undyne and papyrus Ive never claimed that undyne is more durable than papyrus.
Hp being finite doesnt change anything No. Hp is a linear number which is linearly affected and depleted in game. If hp were used for scaling then asgore would scale to photoshop flowey. Just to show how illogical this type of scaling is.
Vulkins stats.
Tsunderplanes stats.
Both fight alongside eachother. Vulkin has far lower hp. 25 attack (same as vulkins) and zero defence.
tier 7 undertale
That wasn't my point. My point was that there were obviously some sort of other holes in the mountain for that to happen, which you said didn't exist. besides I'm pretty sure clouds would eventually get in even if the inside didn't meet the conditions for clouds to form in the first place. There is literally no way a cloud can get into a hole which has a downwards drop. And there is no way enough clouds could make it through a mountain with holes of that size to form a cloud layer. We actually only see one hole that goes straight down in Undertale. We still see sunlight so the hole isn't in that much of a cave. Neither of the exits are near the top of the mountain, so they don't have to be near the cloud layer.
I'm not going to argue that Frisk started at a higher level on the mountain. I'm going to argue that Frisk didn't even get to the next level since there's no proof that Frisk even passed a floor. Okay. To reach cloud height the next two floors ceilings would still need to be more than half a kilometre above the ground.
Actually, Snowdin was snowy even millennia ago before monsters were even involved. The scan doesn't even mention snow. It just references the fact it was cold.
And the snow in Snowdin only showed non-snowlike properties inside of puzzles. So?
Actually, there is no non-frozen lake in Snowdin. The only non-frozen body of water shown is a river that runs through Snowdin, which it presumably doesn't start in. There are multiple grounds in snowdin made of solid ice which could only form in that fashion through small lakes.
And the snow can exist in Hotland because of how insanely cold Snowdin, and thus it's snow, is. Even if that snow was somehow as cold as liquid nitrogen, it would still melt in the hotlands which can make water evaporate.
Are you saying that makes it sensical? It's not appealing to repitition when something requires the same answer over and over. There's even less of a reason to say it's a metaphor or anything, that's not a saying I've ever heard of and it's too specific to be one. It is appeal to repetition if you make the same claim without giving evidence to back it up. It is "realm of clouds" is not too specific to be a metaphor. Ive just explained by comparing to a definition why it is metaphorical language
Tsunderplane actually has a lot to do with planes. She even explodes like one. In fact these things having to do with each other only proves my point. Exploding does not make tsunnderplane a literal plane. Them only having to do with one does not give them the exact same properties. They only represent objects like planes and volcanoes and use magical attacks to visually replicate what those objects can display.
It's all in one straight line and isn't arced in any way like electricity is. And didn't I just tell you that the sound effect is from you getting the question wrong and not from the laser? I know where the sound is from. Because he is shooting it at you. No laser makes a zig zag shape either. The sound is not from the question being wrong. The sound is the standard electrocution/shock noise used in undertale.
Except Asgore isn't 8 times Sans's level. He's 80 times Sans's level, going by STATs and even ignoring HP. Stats are not linear. Defence just negs the amount of damage you receive to a degree.
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I don't really keep up with the stuff, but I gotta point out that stats don't change in value based on Frisk's determination... ever. That just seems like a bad excuse.
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I never said that at all. My point is that there are many other ways floweys defence can drop to zero without him getting one shotted without the baseless assumption that attack raises someoens defence which is also never implied nor shown.
We dont know how frisk would percieve attack and defence when he is an entire dimension in power greater than his normal self or whether it would change or not. There is no way to prove that flowey needed attack to take hits from frisk other than cherry picking and claiming "there is no other explanation".
Likelihood is that it was a fault in the game and was just meant to represent floweys vulnerability.
I forgot to mention that frisks determination scales to the persons attack, one of the examples being durability. If flowey had unfathomable attack and no defence in that scenario, he would have been one shotted.
Also im pretty sure papyrus attack and defence lowers in genocide. Although that may be due to him not wanting to fight.
We dont know how frisk would percieve attack and defence when he is an entire dimension in power greater than his normal self or whether it would change or not. There is no way to prove that flowey needed attack to take hits from frisk other than cherry picking and claiming "there is no other explanation".
Likelihood is that it was a fault in the game and was just meant to represent floweys vulnerability.
I forgot to mention that frisks determination scales to the persons attack, one of the examples being durability. If flowey had unfathomable attack and no defence in that scenario, he would have been one shotted.
Also im pretty sure papyrus attack and defence lowers in genocide. Although that may be due to him not wanting to fight.
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It's not, actually. This is what happens when Photoshop Flowey isn't holding back.
Perspective doesn't matter to STATs, they are the same no matter who sees them.
I didn't make that up.
My proof trumps your claims. And that wouldn't happen according to my logic, because a person with higher HP but the same DEF would be more durable than a person with regular HP and DEF; HP wouldn't lower somebody's Durability.
You didn't, Undyne being > Papyrus is my claim.
I think you misundertstand. HP only has a bearing on Durability based on DEF, it's not going to replace DEF when talking about about Durability.
You linked me to their wiki page. However, I have respect threads on both of them in my Google Drive and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.
You're assuming that all the holes in the mountain are a downwards drop other than the one Frisk fell down.
They should be, since each floor should be the same in height.
Yes, it said it was cold, that means it has similar/the same conditions as what is in Snowdin now.
You said that ALL Snowdin snow is magical.
Good, so you admit that all water is frozen in Snowdin.
And the snow didn't melt. What does that tell you?
I'm not supposed to give evidence to prove a negative. According to Burden of Proof, you have to prove it IS a metaphor first, which is also hard to do.
I know it doesn't, it makes it anatomically similar. And since all of those things have a LOT to do with what they are, the lightning would logically do so too, same as Knight Knight's solar flares.
Good, you admit it is a laser because it didn't zig zag. And most of this section is just denying what I said.
Refresh my memory, how are STATs not linear other than reasons I explained?
Perspective doesn't matter to STATs, they are the same no matter who sees them.
I didn't make that up.
My proof trumps your claims. And that wouldn't happen according to my logic, because a person with higher HP but the same DEF would be more durable than a person with regular HP and DEF; HP wouldn't lower somebody's Durability.
You didn't, Undyne being > Papyrus is my claim.
I think you misundertstand. HP only has a bearing on Durability based on DEF, it's not going to replace DEF when talking about about Durability.
You linked me to their wiki page. However, I have respect threads on both of them in my Google Drive and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.
You're assuming that all the holes in the mountain are a downwards drop other than the one Frisk fell down.
They should be, since each floor should be the same in height.
Yes, it said it was cold, that means it has similar/the same conditions as what is in Snowdin now.
You said that ALL Snowdin snow is magical.
Good, so you admit that all water is frozen in Snowdin.
And the snow didn't melt. What does that tell you?
I'm not supposed to give evidence to prove a negative. According to Burden of Proof, you have to prove it IS a metaphor first, which is also hard to do.
I know it doesn't, it makes it anatomically similar. And since all of those things have a LOT to do with what they are, the lightning would logically do so too, same as Knight Knight's solar flares.
Good, you admit it is a laser because it didn't zig zag. And most of this section is just denying what I said.
Refresh my memory, how are STATs not linear other than reasons I explained?
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STATs don't take Determination into account. That's why Undyne's STATs stay the same the entire time short of her Undying transformation.Ricsi-viragosi said:
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It's not, actually. This is what happens when Photoshop Flowey isn't holding back. Photoshop flowey clearly caught frisk off guard. Frisk was not even fully engaged in combat. Why would photoshop flowey hold back during the entire fight even when he is desperate as the souls have left him?
And how does this debunk what i said? Flowey does not have any specified attack making your claim useless. His defence dropping to zero is just built in to show he is vulnerable, not to show that an invisible statistic he has never remotely shown is raising his durability.
Nowhere in the game has it been implied that attack raises someones durability. It is especially headcannon to assume that attack raises durability of someone and yet leaves the defence value the same, which would contradict the fact that defence is there to show someones defensive capabilities.
Frisks attack does not affect his defensive status or durability in the slightest. If attack were originally intended to boost someones defences (and not have a visible affect on the defence number) then it would have been stated or shown. However we have a direct contradiction where frisk using a weapon to raise his attack does not affect his durability which would not happen if the intent were for attack in verse to raise defence. Attack and defence are verse wide rules that follow everybody and dont change their rules. They follow the simple aspect that attack is attacking potency, and that defence is durability.
Through occams razor, we can use this to follow the solution that there is no intent for attack to raise durability without having an affect on defensive status (the status which indicates the characters defensive capabilities) as the one time stats are being tampered with individually, does not follow any of the rules you stated. Occams razor also applies to flowey. Zero defence being a mechanic to show he is vulnerable is a far more logical and reasonable solution than the assumption that atk stats that he has never even shown are boosting his durability
Perspective doesn't matter to STATs, they are the same no matter who sees them. Just like how attack has never mattered to durability. You havent given any valid explanation other than "it explains why photoshop flowey didnt get one shotted". You are deliberately cherry picking one out of several explanations and ignoring everything else, disregarding it because "it was never shown" despite the fact that attack raising defence has never been shown outside of being a possible.
I didn't make that up.
And yet they never demonstrate this in any fights. There is also nothing implying that they heal more hp than frisk does in that instance.
Referring to the chart agai. No monster that isnt either a boss fight or an unkillable enemy has over 200 hp except for knight knight, so sorry and glyde (the latter two basically being easter eggs made by fans). Majority of monsters in the underground barely, or dont surpass 100 hp at all. Meaning that even with the amount of hp nice cream allows frisk to recover, it would be effectively
On top of that, this food is made for monster consumption. Ice cream healing monsters more than humans would not even be a contradiction to anything hp related, much less frisks attack and defence which is a completely seperate topic altogether.
Hp is just there to either to lengthen fights or just give a representation of how close to death a character is. Hp is not there to show a characters standing in verse at all.
You didn't, Undyne being > Papyrus is my claim. And there is nothing that has ever proven this. You said "this explains why undyne is more durable than papyrus". Your original claim was this. When your argument used to explain your claim has no proof, you resort to saying "this explains why my original claim is true" despite the fact there is nothing to prove the claim true to begin with. You are just using circular reasoning.
I think you misundertstand. HP only has a bearing on Durability based on DEF, it's not going to replace DEF when talking about about Durability. Hp doesnt have a bearing. It just there to show how close an enemy is to death. It is not a representation of a characters standing at all. But if it is just a small bearing, then why bring hp up in the first place?
And this doesnt change the fact that vulkin and tsunderplane are comparable even with vulkin having zero defence. Attack isnt going to boost vulkin to tsunderplanes level since their attack is the same.
You're assuming that all the holes in the mountain are a downwards drop other than the one Frisk fell down. Because every hole we have seen drops down. The only hole that leads in sideways is a built in exit. Plus this wouldnt even matter. As i explained earlier, clouds could not make it through holes of that size in large enough quantities to create a cloud layer prominent enough to be considered as "the realm of the clouds" which you think is a 100% serious statement.
They should be, since each floor should be the same in height. You need proof to assume that. Also im pretty sure it wouldnt matter since i built in both an assumption (which elevates it) and ignored the fact that the jetpack can drop down in a few seconds afterwards. Plus the hotlands are closer to the central point of the mountain meaning the snowdin would have an even lower roof than the hotlands.
Yes, it said it was cold, that means it has similar/the same conditions as what is in Snowdin now. Being cold does not imply it to be covered in snow like it is now.
You said that ALL Snowdin snow is magical Snow in the puzzles is no different from the snow everywhere else and reacts with the other snow as normal snow would. Plus magical properties like the ice are shown across snowdin anyway.
Good, so you admit that all water is frozen in Snowdin. Another Strawman. I never said all water in snowdin is frozen. All of the ice that you walk on is logically formed through minature lakes. Rivers in snowdin however are clearly flowing like normal water. That is physically impossible in the way it is performed. If the temperature is zero, all the ice would freeze. If it was 1 degrees, it would turn back into water. The only possible explanation is snowdin having magical properties which is consistent with the story.
And the snow didn't melt. What does that tell you? That it is not real snow and blatantly has magical properties.
I'm not supposed to give evidence to prove a negative. According to Burden of Proof, you have to prove it IS a metaphor first, which is also hard to do. No. It isnt based on what is negative. You clearly dont understand what you are talking about. I have proven it is a metaphor. Ive given you a link to the definitions of a metaphor and explained why lesser dogs statement matches up with the definition of a metaphor.
- "a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else." This is literally lesser dogs statement. The statement uses the term "approaching the realm of clouds" to symbolise reaching new heights.
You simply ignored it and continued repeating yourself. The burden is on you.
I know it doesn't, it makes it anatomically similar. And since all of those things have a LOT to do with what they are, the lightning would logically do so too, same as Knight Knight's solar flares. How many times in how many ways to i have to explain the fact that visually representing something or mocking something in a gag style fashion does not mean you function in the same way? Especially when they are blatantly magical attacks. Having to do with an object does not make every physical aspect of yourself the same as the object you represent.
Are you trying to argue that knight knights solar flairs are literal solar flares from the sun? Id hate to break it to you, but that is literally impossible since the sun in undertale is completely out of any monsters reach.
It is obvious at this point that no matter what i say, no matter how heavily your argument is contradicted, you will never accept the fact that vulkin is not a real volcano and use any association and repitition you can think of.
This is pointless anyway since vulkins lightning as explained in the op doesnt even meet our cloud to ground lightning standards.
Good, you admit it is a laser because it didn't zig zag. And most of this section is just denying what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth and read my comment again.
Because he is shooting it at you. No laser makes a zig zag shape either. The sound is not from the question being wrong. The sound is the standard electrocution/shock noise used in undertale.
It had a blatant zig zag pattern which no laser could possibly have and in addition has the same shock noise which electrocution makes.
Refresh my memory, how are STATs not linear other than reasons I explained? Because many inconsistencies arise from stats being linear. Many of the monsters in the ruins would be multiple times that of others despite being comparable in power. Sans would scale infinitely above snowdrakes mothers ap who has 0 attack. There is nothing suggesting them being linear in the first place and is directly contradicted. All it tells us is that one character is to some extent stronger or more durable than another.
And how does this debunk what i said? Flowey does not have any specified attack making your claim useless. His defence dropping to zero is just built in to show he is vulnerable, not to show that an invisible statistic he has never remotely shown is raising his durability.
Nowhere in the game has it been implied that attack raises someones durability. It is especially headcannon to assume that attack raises durability of someone and yet leaves the defence value the same, which would contradict the fact that defence is there to show someones defensive capabilities.
Frisks attack does not affect his defensive status or durability in the slightest. If attack were originally intended to boost someones defences (and not have a visible affect on the defence number) then it would have been stated or shown. However we have a direct contradiction where frisk using a weapon to raise his attack does not affect his durability which would not happen if the intent were for attack in verse to raise defence. Attack and defence are verse wide rules that follow everybody and dont change their rules. They follow the simple aspect that attack is attacking potency, and that defence is durability.
Through occams razor, we can use this to follow the solution that there is no intent for attack to raise durability without having an affect on defensive status (the status which indicates the characters defensive capabilities) as the one time stats are being tampered with individually, does not follow any of the rules you stated. Occams razor also applies to flowey. Zero defence being a mechanic to show he is vulnerable is a far more logical and reasonable solution than the assumption that atk stats that he has never even shown are boosting his durability
Perspective doesn't matter to STATs, they are the same no matter who sees them. Just like how attack has never mattered to durability. You havent given any valid explanation other than "it explains why photoshop flowey didnt get one shotted". You are deliberately cherry picking one out of several explanations and ignoring everything else, disregarding it because "it was never shown" despite the fact that attack raising defence has never been shown outside of being a possible.
I didn't make that up.
And yet they never demonstrate this in any fights. There is also nothing implying that they heal more hp than frisk does in that instance.
Referring to the chart agai. No monster that isnt either a boss fight or an unkillable enemy has over 200 hp except for knight knight, so sorry and glyde (the latter two basically being easter eggs made by fans). Majority of monsters in the underground barely, or dont surpass 100 hp at all. Meaning that even with the amount of hp nice cream allows frisk to recover, it would be effectively
On top of that, this food is made for monster consumption. Ice cream healing monsters more than humans would not even be a contradiction to anything hp related, much less frisks attack and defence which is a completely seperate topic altogether.
Hp is just there to either to lengthen fights or just give a representation of how close to death a character is. Hp is not there to show a characters standing in verse at all.
You didn't, Undyne being > Papyrus is my claim. And there is nothing that has ever proven this. You said "this explains why undyne is more durable than papyrus". Your original claim was this. When your argument used to explain your claim has no proof, you resort to saying "this explains why my original claim is true" despite the fact there is nothing to prove the claim true to begin with. You are just using circular reasoning.
I think you misundertstand. HP only has a bearing on Durability based on DEF, it's not going to replace DEF when talking about about Durability. Hp doesnt have a bearing. It just there to show how close an enemy is to death. It is not a representation of a characters standing at all. But if it is just a small bearing, then why bring hp up in the first place?
And this doesnt change the fact that vulkin and tsunderplane are comparable even with vulkin having zero defence. Attack isnt going to boost vulkin to tsunderplanes level since their attack is the same.
You're assuming that all the holes in the mountain are a downwards drop other than the one Frisk fell down. Because every hole we have seen drops down. The only hole that leads in sideways is a built in exit. Plus this wouldnt even matter. As i explained earlier, clouds could not make it through holes of that size in large enough quantities to create a cloud layer prominent enough to be considered as "the realm of the clouds" which you think is a 100% serious statement.
They should be, since each floor should be the same in height. You need proof to assume that. Also im pretty sure it wouldnt matter since i built in both an assumption (which elevates it) and ignored the fact that the jetpack can drop down in a few seconds afterwards. Plus the hotlands are closer to the central point of the mountain meaning the snowdin would have an even lower roof than the hotlands.
Yes, it said it was cold, that means it has similar/the same conditions as what is in Snowdin now. Being cold does not imply it to be covered in snow like it is now.
You said that ALL Snowdin snow is magical Snow in the puzzles is no different from the snow everywhere else and reacts with the other snow as normal snow would. Plus magical properties like the ice are shown across snowdin anyway.
Good, so you admit that all water is frozen in Snowdin. Another Strawman. I never said all water in snowdin is frozen. All of the ice that you walk on is logically formed through minature lakes. Rivers in snowdin however are clearly flowing like normal water. That is physically impossible in the way it is performed. If the temperature is zero, all the ice would freeze. If it was 1 degrees, it would turn back into water. The only possible explanation is snowdin having magical properties which is consistent with the story.
And the snow didn't melt. What does that tell you? That it is not real snow and blatantly has magical properties.
I'm not supposed to give evidence to prove a negative. According to Burden of Proof, you have to prove it IS a metaphor first, which is also hard to do. No. It isnt based on what is negative. You clearly dont understand what you are talking about. I have proven it is a metaphor. Ive given you a link to the definitions of a metaphor and explained why lesser dogs statement matches up with the definition of a metaphor.
- "a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else." This is literally lesser dogs statement. The statement uses the term "approaching the realm of clouds" to symbolise reaching new heights.
You simply ignored it and continued repeating yourself. The burden is on you.
I know it doesn't, it makes it anatomically similar. And since all of those things have a LOT to do with what they are, the lightning would logically do so too, same as Knight Knight's solar flares. How many times in how many ways to i have to explain the fact that visually representing something or mocking something in a gag style fashion does not mean you function in the same way? Especially when they are blatantly magical attacks. Having to do with an object does not make every physical aspect of yourself the same as the object you represent.
Are you trying to argue that knight knights solar flairs are literal solar flares from the sun? Id hate to break it to you, but that is literally impossible since the sun in undertale is completely out of any monsters reach.
It is obvious at this point that no matter what i say, no matter how heavily your argument is contradicted, you will never accept the fact that vulkin is not a real volcano and use any association and repitition you can think of.
This is pointless anyway since vulkins lightning as explained in the op doesnt even meet our cloud to ground lightning standards.
Good, you admit it is a laser because it didn't zig zag. And most of this section is just denying what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth and read my comment again.
Because he is shooting it at you. No laser makes a zig zag shape either. The sound is not from the question being wrong. The sound is the standard electrocution/shock noise used in undertale.
It had a blatant zig zag pattern which no laser could possibly have and in addition has the same shock noise which electrocution makes.
Refresh my memory, how are STATs not linear other than reasons I explained? Because many inconsistencies arise from stats being linear. Many of the monsters in the ruins would be multiple times that of others despite being comparable in power. Sans would scale infinitely above snowdrakes mothers ap who has 0 attack. There is nothing suggesting them being linear in the first place and is directly contradicted. All it tells us is that one character is to some extent stronger or more durable than another.
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This is the last comment i am making on this thread since it is pointless and wasting time. So far, everything that could make undertale town or multi city block level has been debunked fully and clearly wont be accepted by the wikis standards based on what is presented. Even if everything else besides vulkins lightning and lesser dogs statement (since they are outright disproven at this point) were true, it would at best only give a few characters an at least rating.
It is clear nothing anybody says will ever convince you otherwise. You are clearly grasping at straws and leading this argument round in full circle by trying to scramble for a possible scenario where you are right rather than going by what is actually shown in the game. Not sure if this is is you overthinking or your shenanigans you pull everywhere else. Either way, this thread is pretty much pointless now and isnt going anywhere.
It is clear nothing anybody says will ever convince you otherwise. You are clearly grasping at straws and leading this argument round in full circle by trying to scramble for a possible scenario where you are right rather than going by what is actually shown in the game. Not sure if this is is you overthinking or your shenanigans you pull everywhere else. Either way, this thread is pretty much pointless now and isnt going anywhere.
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