A monster fights 2 other monsters (Johan Liebert vs Clover (Undertale yellow))

[Diamond_Drone]

What? In many of the scans I've linked, Johan is at least implied either to have known about a killer's past abuse from their mother, and in killing a detective by SI, knew about their precise regrets. His profile even states he can analyze people to the root of their personality. How is that below timeline level info analysis? Sans doesn't know an ounce of Frisk's childhood.

As Eden pointed out, he still needed to do research to figure out the things you're claiming he can do without effort. Even if he could "analyze people to the root of their personality" without needing research of any kind, he'd still need feats of him using that intelligence to figure out supernatural phenomena and abilities because otherwise that'd be a No Limit Fallacy. This is also not considering that Flowey essentially holds a mini-Marioplex amount of information from when he used resets.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Interesting. There's one instance that may or may not contradict the notion that he can do stuff with a glance. The problem with the case is that it may be a sample size too small to be representative of his entire abilities. Virtually everyone is different and Johan would use differing methods to get information himself. And due to the high amount of feats and length of the canon, this case may not represent how he gets information.

Don't get me wrong, his canon is still realistic, it may get to a point where we might start accepting outliers when detective Brown's virtually different.

I was hesitant at changing match conditions due to my bias, but seeing Johan's position right now, I'll give him prior knowledge on the duo. I've also had and seen cases where former stomps had been made fair due to a change in match conditions.

Speaking of the duo, how does Flowey being standard equipment work if Flowey is excluded as a main combatant (Clover only side of a fight)?

 

[MintyBoi1]

Pretty sure this is a Clover/Flowey stomp regardless of knowledge. You are having to backflip through hoops on fire to find a way for Johan to get past their time powers plus general apathy to resist any SI.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Pretty sure this is a Clover/Flowey stomp regardless of knowledge. You are having to backflip through hoops on fire to find a way for Johan to get past their time powers plus general apathy to resist any SI.

That's the point of this match?

If I was brought up that Flowey and Chara against Johan was a stomp on the main site, I wouldn't have made this match.

The duo would practically have to deal with psychological warfare and Johan trying to make them turn on each other first before considering a SAVE and LOAD and then a reset. With the current conditions, Johan would be able to do stuff he would do unlike previously. Not to mention, has the duo has fought and beaten a genius intelligent psychopath before? Or countered permanent memory attacks on the level of Johan before? Within the first reset?

They're not going to be picture perfect on every move for the first loads anyways. The main selling point of time manip here is doing stuff over? If there's a major thing that's permanent or you're not going to use "X" big time manip thing in character all the time, why should I think this is a stomp?

 

[MintyBoi1]

The duo would practically have to deal with psychological warfare and Johan trying to make them turn on each other first before considering a SAVE and LOAD and then a reset. With the current conditions, Johan would be able to do stuff he would do unlike previously. Not to mention, has the duo has fought and beaten a genius intelligent psychopath before? Or countered permanent memory attacks on the level of Johan before? Within the first reset?

They're not going to be picture perfect on every move for the first loads anyways.

I’m not sure how that would work though when Johan relies on trauma and neither of them have any they care about. Maybe he could make them fight each other but then Clover easily kills Flowey and Johan is free game since he can’t do anything to hurt him physically or emotionally. Flowey is a genius psychopath, so that point isn’t too big.

It’s not about them making the best moves, it’s about Johan’s only moves being very unlikely to do anything.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I’m not sure how that would work though when Johan relies on trauma and neither of them have any they care about. Maybe he could make them fight each other but then Clover easily kills Flowey and Johan is free game since he can’t do anything to hurt him physically or emotionally. Flowey is a genius psychopath, so that point isn’t too big.

It’s not about them making the best moves, it’s about Johan’s only moves being very unlikely to do anything.

The underground is very small in comparison to Germany. And Flowey couldn't to stuff to Asgore. Meanwhile, how large is Germany?

And how can you say Johan relies on the trauma when everyone is different and Monster's canon is time consuming to consume? For all we could know, Richards and Peter's offing themselves is just an outlier to only rely on in comparison when Johan canonically relies on targeting their identities. I've also established a genius like Johan can use persuasion that doesn't go against either duo's beliefs and emotions from a distance. IRL psychopaths and skilled speakers dumber than him can do this.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I almost forgot to mention some of their hax shown in monster that can impact memory would still technically work for the first couple of loads since they're the type of duo that would rely on trial and error.

 

[Rayfire]

If I was brought up that Flowey and Chara against Johan was a stomp on the main site, I wouldn't have made this match.

Everyone has been saying that clover & flowey stomp from the start man...

Neither Clover or Flowey can be very mentally affected by SI at all, and i think this is very obvious when you look at both characters. They can't be persuaded whatsoever, especially since clover is in his genocide key. Johan's only real way of beating these two is thus basically impossible for him to do, and the most i can really see him doing from there is just running and hiding, but that doesn't let him make progress at all.

RESET's also let the duo know what johan will do far ahead of time, which makes predicting where he'll be or what he'll be doing at that point in time will be much easier. I don't see acausality on johan's profile, nor do i see a way he'd be able to read clover or flowey himself before he gets obliterated. It's a 10-B vs two High 8-C's. And even that happens another RESET to erase johans knowledge like a snap of a finger is still possible. If johan is unaffected by time travel somehow then this would be a moot point, but monster is meant to be semi-realistic as far as i could tell from the first couple episodes, so i highly doubt this is the case

The underground is very small in comparison to Germany. And Flowey couldn't to stuff to Asgore. Meanwhile, how large is Germany?

This takes place within a TOWN in germany, and i don't see why johan would want to keep his distance by going somewhere else in the country if he literally doesn't know anything about either of his opponents, and it also makes it way harder to send other people to deal with/spy on the duo, so this isn't nearly as strong of a point.

Battle takes place within a town in Germany

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Neither Clover or Flowey can be very mentally affected by SI at all, and i think this is very obvious when you look at both characters. They can't be persuaded whatsoever, especially since clover is in his genocide key. Johan's only real way of beating these two is thus basically impossible for him to do, and the most i can really see him doing from there is just running and hiding, but that doesn't let him make progress at all.

And neither of the duo has shown greater feats of resisting distant social influencing as advanced as Johan. Clover has only shown to resist one word from regular monsters, not highly emotionally intelligent ones. Flowey has only shown to resist empathy, not the other nonpositive feeling emotions Johan can exploit as shown in the latter's SI victims.

RESET's also let the duo know what johan will do far ahead of time, which makes predicting where he'll be or what he'll be doing at that point in time will be much easier. I don't see acausality on johan's profile, nor do i see a way he'd be able to read clover or flowey himself before he gets obliterated. It's a 10-B vs two High 8-C's. And even that happens another RESET to erase johans knowledge like a snap of a finger is still possible. If johan is unaffected by time travel somehow then this would be a moot point, but monster is meant to be semi-realistic as far as i could tell from the first couple episodes, so i highly doubt this is the case

Resets are useless if Johan SIs them befote hand.

This takes place within a TOWN in germany, and i don't see why johan would want to keep his distance by going somewhere else in the country if he literally doesn't know anything about either of his opponents, and it also makes it way harder to send other people to deal with/spy on the duo, so this isn't nearly as strong of a point.

Missing the point. I was talking about how Flowey hasn't shown one-run feats like Johan. Why isn't it a NLF to say the duo's time travel and skills can impact Johan when they haven't impacted similar people's skills in canon?

 

[Rayfire]

And neither of the duo has shown greater feats of resisting distant social influencing as advanced as Johan. Clover has only shown to resist one word from regular monsters, not highly emotionally intelligent ones. Flowey has only shown to resist empathy, not the other nonpositive feeling emotions Johan can exploit as shown in the latter's SI victims.

From what i’ve read, Johan relies on trauma, and neither member of the duo has any that they actually care about anymore, and Johan also has no way of knowing exactly what it is.

Clover also has Mind Reading, which, while vague, in general would let him know if Johan or anyone he sends is trying to manipulate him via persuasion, like looking through his memories and seeing the stuff he plans or reading what he is currently thinking about. And at that point it’d become useless entirely to SI him, so I have no reason to believe Johan could do this to him in particular.

• Mind Reading

Also, how would Johan even SI them without getting close? If he is anywhere nearby the duo then he is dead the moment they see him. I know he can send people but they would not have nearly as much convincing power as Johan does, and if the duo knows they are with Johan they’d die before they could get more than a sentence out.

Missing the point. I was talking about how Flowey hasn't shown one-run feats like Johan. Why isn't it a NLF to say the duo's time travel and skills can impact Johan when they haven't impacted similar people's skills in canon?

Logically they do if clover knows what’s going to happen in the future like he has precog. That’s why fights get easier for him each time
he comes back. Subaru from re:zero for example uses a very similair ability to fix all the mistakes he makes, and the duo would be able to do the same thing and make it way harder for Johan to outsmart them.

Resets are useless if Johan SIs them befote hand.

SI is very unlikely to work against the duo for the millionth time especially with clover being to mind-read, and pretty much everyone here agrees with me…

 

[H3110l12345I20]

From what i’ve read, Johan relies on trauma, and neither member of the duo has any that they actually care about anymore, and Johan also has no way of knowing exactly what it is.

Clover also has Mind Reading, which, while vague, in general would let him know if Johan or anyone he sends is trying to manipulate him via persuasion, like looking through his memories and seeing the stuff he plans or reading what he is currently thinking about. And at that point it’d become useless entirely to SI him, so I have no reason to believe Johan could do this to him in particular.

Also, how would Johan even SI them without getting close? If he is anywhere nearby the duo then he is dead the moment they see him. I know he can send people but they would not have nearly as much convincing power as Johan does, and if the duo knows they are with Johan they’d die before they could get more than a sentence out.

Logically they do if clover knows what’s going to happen in the future like he has precog. That’s why fights get easier for him each time
he comes back. Subaru from re:zero for example uses a very similair ability to fix all the mistakes he makes, and the duo would be able to do the same thing and make it way harder for Johan to outsmart them.

SI is very unlikely to work against the duo for the millionth time especially with clover being to mind-read, and pretty much everyone here agrees with me…

1: Monster is an extensive series. How can you tell that one or two manipulative instances are representative of his SI or aren't outliers.

2: Clover's mind reading hasn't technically shown to work on high tier SI people like Johan. Sounds like NLF, even for any encounter with genius manipulators for Flowey. If anything, Johan could use his mind reading to communicate with this to relay his message die to prior knowledge.

3: He's SIed people from a distance before as seen with Peter Jurgens' letters, as long as it's on the level of letters and writing, Johan can influence them. Their violence wouldn't work at first technically if in the first loads, they can't find Johan. The SI resistance points have been countered.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Clover's mind reading is more akin to scanning memories (While also forcing the opponent to relive those memories) than your typical mind reading.
They used it in the Genocide route against Martlet in an attempt to find a reason to hate her, and presumably also a justified reason to kill her.

 

[Volt12121]

Clover's mind reading is more akin to scanning memories (While also forcing the opponent to relive those memories) than your typical mind reading.

So that just make clover even more likely to just not care about whatever the dude has to say, if he sees he's a psychopath who forces people to suicide and stuff, Clover's sense of justice would just make him freaking reduce that guy to dust

 

[H3110l12345I20]

So that just make clover even more likely to just not care about whatever the dude has to say, if he sees he's a psychopath who forces people to suicide and stuff, Clover's sense of justice would just make him freaking reduce that guy to dust

Clover can't kill Johan if he not physically there. Only SIing through nonphysically confrontational means. He also can disguise himself and as seen in the respect thread I linked, sneak into places. Clover hasn't killed an SI manipulator that can stop people with one word at a distance before too.

 

[Volt12121]

Clover can't kill Johan if he not physically there. Only SIing through nonphysically confrontational means. He also can disguise himself and as seen in the respect thread I linked, sneak into places. Clover hasn't killed an SI manipulator that can stop people with one word at a distance before too.

Then how can he SI him if he isn't anywhere close to him, letters won't work cause Clover won't even care to read em if he's facing someone he sees as an enemy

 

[Diamond_Drone]

1: Monster is an extensive series. How can you tell that one or two manipulative instances are representative of his SI or aren't outliers.

Good point, as the one defending Johan shouldn't you be the one providing proof that they're wrong?

2: Clover's mind reading hasn't technically shown to work on high tier SI people like Johan. Sounds like NLF, even for any encounter with genius manipulators for Flowey. If anything, Johan could use his mind reading to communicate with this to relay his message die to prior knowledge.

High tier SI would not help resisting literal Telepathy, he'd need actual resistance to Mind Manipulation or Telepathy to do that. Don't try to claim something else is NLF while you keep increasing how impressive Johan's SI ability is.

Also, if I remember correctly, Clover needs to hit the opponent to use their Mind Reading ability, meaning Johan is probably already dead if Clover's ever in the position to use that ability.

3: He's SIed people from a distance before as seen with Peter Jurgens' letters, as long as it's on the level of letters and writing, Johan can influence them. Their violence wouldn't work at first technically if in the first loads, they can't find Johan. The SI resistance points have been countered.

SI'ing from a distance doesn't disprove Clover and Flowey resisting SI specifically targeting their willpower, neutral Clover could do that as mentioned multiple times earlier. He can at most make them fight against eachother, however he'd still have to deal with the one who survived through non-SI means which is essentially impossible as a 10-B human against a Tier 8, Class M human with time powers.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Then how can he SI him if he isn't anywhere close to him, letters won't work cause Clover won't even care to read em if he's facing someone he sees as an enemy

What? I at the very least know that Clover and most definitely Flowey have at least some player psychology from watching some UTY playthroughs. They would check out stuff novel to them or at the very least most definitely the latter would if the former doesn't. That's pretty much given since they wouldn't know some of the letters, or similar marking are from Johan. They could also explore stuff that could further their cause of a murder spree or finding a target

Good point, as the one defending Johan shouldn't you be the one providing proof that they're wrong?

High tier SI would not help resisting literal Telepathy, he'd need actual resistance to Mind Manipulation or Telepathy to do that. Don't try to claim something else is NLF while you keep increasing how impressive Johan's SI ability is.

Also, if I remember correctly, Clover needs to hit the opponent to use their Mind Reading ability, meaning Johan is probably already dead if Clover's ever in the position to use that ability.

SI'ing from a distance doesn't disprove Clover and Flowey resisting SI specifically targeting their willpower, neutral Clover could do that as mentioned multiple times earlier. He can at most make them fight against eachother, however he'd still have to deal with the one who survived through non-SI means which is essentially impossible as a 10-B human against a Tier 8, Class M human with time powers.

1: Clarify who's wrong. As much as time manip is potent in UT, there's still limits to the power. If I suddenly put an opponent that passively removes all a person's memories in front of Flowey, what's that going to do to a potential match? I can say the same things/examples with the other resistances. Not to mention, if there's only one instance ever of Flowey getting beaten up by a child online from the main canon and it ends up being an outlier. Wouldn't making an assumption of 2 scans alone not be representative of the whole? I'm not the only one who can link fallacies like hasty generalization, and if there's any potential claims evidence demands, state the claims that need linking. They're on this thread, and there's a respect thread for Johan too.

2: Then why bring up mind reading if Johan's pretty much going to be as closed in as Flowey for 90% of the match? I'm only using the links I gave on this thread, the info from the profile, and the knowledge I have from the series so far and what he's only done. I can relink the links in a reply to show the evidence is there. At least give evidence I'm doing wank before doing keyboard warrior justice stuff. Otherwise, how do you know you're not like me?

3: Why would johan do something that he has prior knowledge of knowing that it wouldn't work? He's an expert manipulator and in human psychology. Anyone who's been in that territory or been with a flat earther would know it's a terrible idea to go against the the flow of one's beliefs (or willpower in this case) for persuasion unless know what they're doing. He would go for persuasion that willpower wouldn't have resistance against (confirming the duo's will and beliefs).

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Is everyone here in this thread ok or doing fine? If there's anger or resentment, take a break and return with a calmer mind. High emotion can cloud judgement. And I've been seeing a lot of arguments being made that have been countered already for some reason. I appreciate the worry of a thread being potentially unfair, it motivates reasoning and changes to make a match fair.