Undertale downgrades

[Read_this_post]

True. I think asriels two keys can be saved for later.

Is it safe to make the downgrades to flowey, frisk and asriels base form then?

 

[Andytrenom]

Base Asriel would still be Low 2-C for destroying a timeline even if he gets downgraded

 

[Read_this_post]

So. Can we make the tier downgrades that have seemingly been accepted so far? Asriels base form and flowey become low 2-C possibly 2-C. And asriels angel death has his explanation altered.

 

[Antvasima]

We preferably need more staff input first, especially as Azathoth the bureaucrat is missing from the wiki.

 

[Crabwhale]

Seems reasonable from a glance. Although one correction: it's megalomania. Megalovania is the name of the song.

...Yes, that was very important.

 

[Ryukama]

Please don't mistitle the Sans theme thank you

 

[Chariot190]

Please don't mistitle the Sans theme thank you

>sans.

Wow creepypasta Dr. Andonuts gonna be pissed when he hears you said that.

 

[Read_this_post]

That can be discussed on the rule violation thread. So, do you think its safe to do the flowey downgrade? Floweys scaling was completely accepted as being wrong a while back and is supposed to be downgraded anyway.

 

[Andytrenom]

He mistitled the San's theme, wow that's making me doubt his credibility. I'm not sure about the revisions anymore

 

[Ryukama]

He mistitled the San's theme

You misspelled Sans. That's making me doubt your credibility, and now I am positive about the revisions.

 

[Read_this_post]

That can be discussed on the rule violation thread. So, do you think its safe to do the flowey downgrade? Floweys scaling was completely accepted as being wrong a while back and is supposed to be downgraded anyway.

 

[Andytrenom]

You misspelled Sans. That's making me doubt your credibility, and now I am positive about the revisions.

I got my position through bribes

 

[Crabwhale]

I got my position through bribes

We already know this.

 

[Agnaa]

Trying my best to summarize everyone's evaluations... (Tell me, and I'll edit in any of this I'm wrong about)

Tony: Pretty reasonable

Elizhaa: Neutral on the scaling, everything else looks fine.

Ecstasy Amphetamine: Neutral on the scaling, everything else looks fine.

Agnaa (me): Seems reasonable, but I'd like to hear counterarguments.

Read this post: I agree with downgrading Flowey and Asriel's base, but not the god of hyperdeath form. I'm neutral on mid godly as of right now. Along with the rest of this atm. (I think this is saying neutral on everything, but it might just be neutral on mid-godly?)

Sadistic Sleuth: Seems fine with me.

Super Ascended Sean Padzera: I'm not sure where this user stands, their posts were very long without a concise/clear summary.

Andy: I agree with Flowey not scaling to Chara and with removing Chara's Type 1 AE. No opinion on the rest.

Crabwhale: Seems reasonable from a glance.

DMB 1: I pretty much agree with the OP.

To categorize these opinions...

Everything's fine: 4 (Tony, Sadistic, Crabwhale, DMB)

Mostly fine, neutral on the scaling: 2 (Elizhaa, Ecstasy)

Downgrade Flowey and base Asriel, not sure about everything else: 1 (Read this post)

Scaling and removing AE's fine, not sure about everything else: 1 (Andy)

True Neutral: 1 (Me)

 

[DMB_1]

I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.

 

[Read_this_post]

So far im only supporting downgrading asriels base and flowey but not angel death. I think elizhaa just mentioned some others disagreeing with the scaling change. Though in the thread i linked, basically everyone including azathoth agree with flowey not scaling to chara.

 

[Agnaa]

To quote Elizhaa: I do think remember that the scaling from Chara for Flowey and Asriel was contested in the past but I think staffs like Saikou disagreed with it. I think it is better to ask them. So, I am neutral there.

I'll edit my post to include your opinion, and make it clear that Elizhaa/Ecstasy are neutral on the scaling, rather than opposing the change.

 

[Read_this_post]

It seems like almost everyone seems to be either neutral on of agrees with flowey not scaling then.

Heres the rough explanation for angel death asriel im going for: Was going to perform the true reset, the same ability chara demonstrated in the genocide ending by completely destroying the games reality and recreating the multiverse, erasing everyones memories and setting all progress back to zero. Was causing the whole world to end by merely existing, the same language chara used to describe destroying the games reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Has anybody asked all of the staff members who know Undertale reasonably well yet?

 

[Agnaa]

It looks like every staff member in the Knowledgeable Members List has been asked to comment, although not many have responded yet.

 

[Antvasima]

What about the Undertale verse page?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I hadn't asked Cal and Weekly from there yet.

 

[Agnaa]

That adds The Foolish Omniscient Guy, WeeklyBattles, and Therefir as staff still needing to be asked.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Will do when I get on the computer.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Also note that... he is wrong. His plan to become all powerful is the 6 human souls. Frisk alone, in the pacifist route, can stalemate Asriel with the power of 7 human souls (remember that he couldn't reset, which means Frisk had comparable amounts of DT).

Boy!
I've been empty for so long...
It feels great to have a SOUL inside me again.
Mmmm, I can feel them wriggling...
Awww, you're feeling left out, aren't you?
Well, that's just perfect.
After all, I only have six souls.
I still need one more...
Before I become GOD.

Okay.

I'll agree on Asriel and all of Chara. I just need a little more to chew on with Flowey.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That still doesn't work when:

Pacifist Frisk is equal to Asriel in DT.

Genocide Frisk is the absolute peak in power that they can obtain.

Chara is superior to Frisk in every manner.


And it also doesn't prove how Flowey would have any idea on how powerful Chara is since he dies before he could ever meet them.


And there is still the fact that he says "you and your stolen soul", implying that the soul is an important point for Chara's power.


And he wasn't sure about it being Chara at all, and as he even says in his Asriel self, he just assumes Chara is just there with Frisk.

 

[Read_this_post]

Frisks determination peaked was only enough to take his durability to asriels level. Chara never killed a frisk with full determination.

Regardless, full power asriel was going to perform the true reset which acts as charas game destruction feat (same as the player).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Peaked determination was enough to make Asriel unable to reset, Chara has pacifist Friks' soul, and genocide Frisk is stated to be at their strongest.

And this is not about Asriel. It' about Omega Flowey being superior to Frisk at their strongest making no sense.

 

[Read_this_post]

Considering chara practically stole control of the game from the player and was a part of frisk to begin with, there is no reason to assume that frisk would use peak determination against chara especially when the game renders it impossible to fight her.

I agree that omega flowey is not above frisk or chara. Only base asriel should scale. The scaling was fully debunked and accepted in the thread i linked earlier.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Frisk was at their strongest possible. That is not arguable, it's plain stated. They reached their limit in power at end of genocide.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Except, it's very obvious in the Angel of Hyperdeath segment of Asriel's battle that, while their DT may have been comparable for a time, if Frisk hadn't caused the souls that Asriel held to fight back like they did with Flowey, via SAVE, they were on a downward slope and would have eventually lost. ("I can feel it... Every time you die, your grip on this world slips away. Every time you die, your friends forget you a little more. Your life will end here, in a world where no one remembers you...")

Heck, Frisk proved that he can't take on either Omega Flowey or Asriel head-on. Instead, they sabotaged him from the inside both times utilizing SAVE. Plus, Omega Flowey purposefully entrapped Frisk in a loop with the intention of "playing" with them forever, which only stopped when the human SOULs rebelled against him.

It's pretty clear that Omega Flowey > Base Asriel > Angel of Hyperdeath Asriel, as Frisk can at least damage Flowey without outside assistance, whereas they can't even harm Asriel, and are completely immobilized by the time Asriel goes all out on them. I can see Frisk possibly being stronger than Omega Flowey, but Full Power Asriel is definitely far superior to Pacifist Frisk. And any relation between how powerful Full Power Asriel is to Genocide Frisk is never, at any point, made clear.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Except Chara couldn't actually kill Frisk. And Frisk was not at her strongest ever, she had nowhere near the amount of DT that she had fighting against Asriel. Strongest ever in LOVE, yes. But that doesn't mean it's the strongest she's ever been, especially since Chara never sees what Frisk does in the Pacifist Run.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Please don't use greater-than signs as arrowheads. It's porpuse is literally the opposite.

And again, you gave zero reasons why Omega would in any way scale to Chara. Burden of proof would need hat to be proven, because his statement quite clearly refers to "chara" in their current state, controlling Frisk.

 

[Read_this_post]

Frisk only scales to asriel in durability when peaked. His ap when peaked may or may not scale above floweys. Its a little unknown. But yes, i do agree with starter pack on this comment.

@Ricsi Except their increase in strength was not due to determination at all. It was due to their immense killing intent and chara gaining more power throughout the run, eventually enough to break from the players control, using the players determination as well. Frisk would have no reason to have charas full power after she reaches her absolute.

This logic would literally mean that frisk was the same level against sans as he was against asriel.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Except Chara couldn't actually kill Frisk. And Frisk was not at her strongest ever, she had nowhere near the amount of DT that she had fighting against Asriel. Strongest ever in LOVE, yes. But that doesn't mean it's the strongest she's ever been, especially since Chara never sees what Frisk does in the Pacifist Run.

They did kill them. Frisk's soul just going back together is just ressurection.

And they did. It's plain stated that they are at their strongest, and Chara aknowledges the power given by DT too. There is no reason to assume that Chara, who knows about the pacifist run, would claim Frisk peaked in power if they didn't. It's never said "strongest" in love, since that's just their ability to distance themselves from others and their will to kill.

And... what the hell do you mean Chara never sees pacifist run? They tell you to do it if you repeat the genocide one, and possess you at the end of it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi Except their increase in strength was not due to determination at all. It was due to their immense killing intent and chara gaining more power throughout the run, eventually enough to break from the players control, using the players determination as well. Frisk would have no reason to have charas full power after she reaches her absolute.

This logic would literally mean that frisk was the same level against sans as he was against asriel.

And I never said they do. Chara and Frisk are different people. Frisk is inferior to Chara by virtue of Chara obtaining everything Frisk has. And even before that, Frisk has no reason to scale. But genocide frisk by all means is stronger than pacifist one.

And Frisk gets stronger after killing Sand, Flowey and Asgore.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

@Starter Pack

Frisk was becoming more and more durable the more and more Determined she got during the fight. By the end of it, Asriel was no longer able to kill her at all. Also, not even Full Power Asriel was able to steal her SAVE and LOAD.

Frisk > Photoshop Flowey by the end. Several characters, including Photoshop Flowey himself, mentioned the fact that Frisk could actually win this fight the second time, and the second time he wasn't even able to steal Frisk's SAVE and LOAD.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Except Frisk's SOUL never breaks apart. And if Frisk was killed, whose SOUL did Chara take?

It does not, she says, "we have reached our absolute", which could mean a lot of different things, such as the maximum LOVE, the absolute end of the game, or that they've gotten to a very pivotal part. LOVE is also shown to blatantly increase STATs.

No, she tells you to take a different path other than Genocide. And I mean in the Genocide Run she doesn't know about the Pacifist Run.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Tfw a massive downgrade thread is getting more attention than my massive upgrade thread

 

[Read_this_post]

@Risci The determination chara got was from the player. Not frisk. Chara functions as the narrator and a part of frisk the player controls. She is influenced in the genocide run by the players actions which is why she develops the exact same mindset the player has when going on their killing spree. When chara breaks free from the players control from feeding on both lv and the players determination that link between them is practically broken. The player no longer has any way of controling frisk nor using him as a way to fend against chara (which is even further supported when you consider chara just outright took control of frisk).

Frisk was never stated at their strongest in terms of determination. They just reached maximum lv. Even so, he has no reason to retain whatever he had in the genocide run nor have a way of defending against chara due to the player no longer even controling frisk by that point.