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Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
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Continuing from this thread.

Keys

Kirby hasn't always been as strong, he was around 5-A in earlier games, 4-A by the time he defeated Drawcia, and a certain higher level when he fought Magolor. As you can see here, he really had no reason to be as powerful as Nova around the time he beat Marx, but by the time he could defeat Marx Soul (Marx w/ Nova's powers) and Star Dream (Same "species" as Nova) he was clearly up on that level.

Making keys for those 3 stats would be messy given normal powers, Copy Abilities and OE. So I propose Kirby to have 1 key at 5-A right before he defeated Drawcia (Pre-Canvas Curse), 1 right before Star Allies (Pre-Star Allies), and a current one (Post-Star Allies), with other notable characters like MK only having the latter 2 keys as they are, and final bosses being 5-A and 4-A if needed to.

Low-tiers

Mostly already being done in this thread; The black hole calc needs to be gone and the planet Popstar-cracking feat needs to be re-calc'd. The Helpers will scale to Iron Mom's planet-cracking feat, being weaker but able to beat her.

Helpers also need to have 2 keys; as regular enemies and as Helpers, as at least in Star Allies they scale to the friendship/positive-based Accelerated Development Fighters 2 establishes, and so they should "possibly" have the same tier & stats as the top-tiers, as they could have used said ability to grow at that power. All Star Allies have that Accelerated Development, + the few characters who showed it in Fighters 2.

Lifting Strength

For the top-tiers after the fight with Magolor it should be Multi-Stellar as Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede and Bandana Dee can withstand being near and survive getting sucked into a black hole that quickly rolls the space in the setting shown, including the stars in the background of it, with the cast getting only slowly attracted while trying to outrun or outfly it.

For scaling, in Star Allies MK has an attack where he flies at foes but can be intercepted with an attack, making a clash and pushing him back while he's overpowered for a bit.

Master Crown's feat

From Magolor's profile; "His defeat caused the destruction of interstellar parts of the reality where he was, including the place where his fight took place and the 15 areas where the Sphere Doomers were fought in Return to Dream Land, when each of them had multiple stars"

Now we know for sure that those areas were not in the same dimension, each was in a different dimension:
Which makes sense as we know Another Dimension is a multiverse, something that was always the case since Return to Dream Land, and the dimensions there are universes. So there are 2 possible takes to the crown's feat:
  1. Only the interstellar areas around Popstar and Halcandra were being destroyed in those 15 or 16 universes, meaning that the feat remains the same.
  2. The destruction was reaching all of those 15 or 16 universes, hence it moved from universe to universe and could appear in the same areas of them. Meaning it's a 2-C feat.
I personally find the latter more sensical, but the former wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility and so it should be kept too. So I propose "4-A, likely 2-C" for this.

On a more casual note and as I often presume, those Jap. guides we don't have likely say that Another Dimension in general was being destroyed, and Sakurai knows how many universes has that, but eh.

Void Termina blows up

Void Termina gets defeated, blows up, Kirby & co. escape the explosion while passing by stars and a galaxy from a lateral point of view, then as they keep moving away we see from a frontal point of view another galaxy in the background and that the explosion is expanding onto Kirby & co., there's a cut and next thing we know they're all off the vehicle they had with Kirby unconscious, being thus implied that they were reached by the explosion and therefore it having reached those 2 galaxies, as well as the other galaxies seen in the area where the fight took place. Or, it maybe didn't reach the first galaxy but had to cover an area of a higher size, as it was expanding omnidirectionally while it moved passed that galaxy, there were also 4 or so galaxies seen in the fight with Void Termina, all around the same distance away from the fight; if the first galaxy shown in the escape wasn't one of them then the results get higher, if it was then the explosion got big enough to reach into 1 galaxy and, as it expanded omnidirectionally, it should have reached the space of those others galaxies too.

Idk how to word that shorter, maybe a calc should say it rather than the profile.

They would be "3-B, likely 2-C" by this point.

Bonus

We need this 5-A calc evaluated to update some Kirby manga pages.

We need this crazy speed feat evaluated to update some novel Kirby pages, the logistics need to be evaluated together with the math and so that's something, but nothing out of this world.
 
I do disagree with Lifting Strength tho, that seems much like a Durability feat other than a Lifting one, so I disagree with Multi-Stellar LS
If they didn't have Multi-Stellar LS they would have been crushed and moved at the same speed as the rest of the area, the durability of the feat comes from the interstellar area being rolled from and attracted into the black hole, but the cast wasn't affected as much.
however, Kirby did once put the stars back into the sky, so you could use that as a Stellar/Multi-Stellar LS feat which I would agree with
Those are fake stars, the real ones are in the background. You collect those stars as you play the game, they're smaller than Kirby.
 
Ok, so by your own logic, if I can outstand and resist someone trying to rip my head off (when they have the strength to do so) is more an LS feat rather than a durability one yes?
 
If you can stand like normal in gravity that crushes other regular humans, and you still can walk, run and lift things up, then your regular LS is above said pressure. If it's an implosion coming from all sides and making a whole city come into it but you can walk away from it while really near the source of it, then the pressure needed to crush and push you needs to be higher, someone with a LS lower than the pressure of that implosion isn't going to crush or push you better than how the implosion could.
 
I'll use a simpler example to understand the black hole feat.
Imagine you get hit by a tsunami. What'll happen? You'll get sent flying into a nearby wall with the water and then you'll get knocked out or crushed. Now imagine you stand there and take the tsunami and move through it's waves and even run despite the immense pressure of water piling up on you. Clearly it isn't you tanking it, if it wasn't an LS feat but a dura feat it would mean that you'd get hit back into the wall but take no damage. In this case the gravity of the black hole is the tsunami and Kirby and gang run through it like the chads that they are and don't get absorbed despite stars getting absorbed.
So yes, it would be an LS feat.

Overall i agree with the upgrades.
 
I agree with this however it seems a minor thing has been forgotten Adeleine who scales to the helper physically but isn't actually a helper should also be noted as scaling to the post star ally cast the same way as helpers.
I will also mention ultimate choice supports helper scaling.
 
Under the currently accepted cosmology, this makes perfect sense. I also agree with the posts above regarding the 3-B feat. Especially Pink_God, since I too, have no clue how to get an accurate result for a feat like this. That leaves me with only one question regarding dimensional walls:

We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them, and as such, we can also get a time frame for how quickly they consumed each of those universes (ignoring the distance between them of course). If we had nothing to guess such a time frame from. would this simply be a 4-A feat with 2-C range?
 
Under the currently accepted cosmology, this makes perfect sense. I also agree with the posts above regarding the 3-B feat. Especially Pink_God, since I too, have no clue how to get an accurate result for a feat like this. That leaves me with only one question regarding dimensional walls:

We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them, and as such, we can also get a time frame for how quickly they consumed each of those universes (ignoring the distance between them of course). If we had nothing to guess such a time frame from. would this simply be a 4-A feat with 2-C range?
Ik I might just not be knowledgeable but wasn't the feat the collapse that we magolor (everything shattering to pieces) and the dimensional walls just spreading everywhere as a shockwave of sorts? Also we kinda restore those areas using the energy spheres too.
 
Under the currently accepted cosmology
If by chance you want to say something, you can do so.
We have an idea of how fast those dimensional walls moved by scaling them to Landia and the Lor who could barely escape them
That is calc stacking.
Also magolor insta nuked the dimension he was in
The interstellar area around that fight went down pretty fast, that much is true. The rest of that universe might have taken longer, we don't know.
 
If by chance you want to say something, you can do so.
It kind of deserves its own thread. Are we allowed to have two major Kirby threads going on at once? Especially when they both relate to the cosmology in some way?
That is calc stacking.
I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
 
It kind of deserves its own thread. Are we allowed to have two major Kirby threads going on at once? Especially when they both relate to the cosmology in some way?

I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
I mean the difference between high 3-A/3-A and low 2-C is the fact that in tier 2 you affect the time of the given universe which is apparently an automatic thing when you breach into other universes with your deatruction in the case that you aren't using portals. The Dimensional walls are clearly moving in a pretty wave like way without any portals meaning that they fully breached the other universes.
Generally anything below tier 1 is rather easy to differentiate.
4-A to 3-A is the destruction of limited 3D space
High 3-A is the destruction of infinite 3D space
Low 2-C is basically any tier (though it mostly only gets accepted in case it is 3-A+ due to consistency issues) but 4D. Basically and uncountably infinite amount of 3D snapshots.
2-C is plain multiverse nuking. Not only do you go through the presumably higher dimensional wall between universes but you also affect their space-time. There was a recent thread a few weeks ago or maybe more which spoke on that issue and that's what i heard
 
The interstellar area around that fight went down pretty fast, that much is true. The rest of that universe might have taken longer, we don't know.
Magolor causes everything around him to shatter to bits and all we see are bits of the dimension flying around, bits bigger than what they seem to be, entire interstellar areas and more. We see no stars, no anything, it's just the bits of what we saw get nuked and emptiness with weird shapes in the back. I think saying that when you turn a dimension full of stars into a dimension with shattered space and endless emptiness (that then gets erased with dimensional walls) it would not be a stretch to say that it got fully nuked.
 
Also @Peptocoptr27 i believe that your take on the cosmology revision needs to wait. There's not only the fact that this could help people be more lax around your ideas but also the fact that it would be a great backup plan as many variants of a cosmology can be accepted at the same time (Example: Arceus is 2-B and 2-A and due to that many legendaries are 3-C and high 3-A)
 
I mean the difference between high 3-A/3-A and low 2-C is the fact that in tier 2 you affect the time of the given universe which is apparently an automatic thing when you breach into other universes with your deatruction in the case that you aren't using portals. The Dimensional walls are clearly moving in a pretty wave like way without any portals meaning that they fully breached the other universes.
Yep. That's right. Given this, The 2-C upgrade is so blatant that I don't even think "Likely 2-C" does it justice, but since I also want Kirby to have a 3-B key at least for a moment, I can't really say I care.
Also @Peptocoptr27 i believe that your take on the cosmology revision needs to wait. There's not only the fact that this could help people be more lax around your ideas
I also think so, but I'd personally be fine either way. I definitely don't mind waiting and it's probably the best call. That was the original plan when I first saw this thread. It's kind of a shame that it showed upon the same day that I was ready to post it, but no one is to blame for that.
but also the fact that it would be a great backup plan as many variants of a cosmology can be accepted at the same time (Example: Arceus is 2-B and 2-A and due to that many legendaries are 3-C and high 3-A)
I thought of the same thing at some point, but first of all, the point of my thread is not to upgrade the Kirby cast (anymore). It's a cosmology upgrade. Not every 2-C feat would automatically become Low 1-C from it. You could argue that it does in Kirby's case (hence why I made very first clumsy blog where I got carried away and became way too ambitious despite the fact that I wasn't even pulling info from the right statements), but the feats that could scale are so debatable and ambiguous that they would need their own thread if we wanted to go there. Secondly, your solution would leave Kirby with 3 possible keys for each of his individual keys. In this case, "4-A, Likely 2-C, Possibly Low 1-C". This doesn't seem ideal since those kinds of terms are supposed to be used sparingly and they would be used for every top tier in the verse.

Now, unless Effi insists that I make my CRT right now, I don't think we should derail any further.
 
maybe we should have made a thread on the CRT board and not the staff discussion... Though i guess there would be random newbies whining about it
 
I'm using your own words here. Like I said, the upgrade makes sense to me. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. I've seen this argument brought up before so I'm using it. How do you even differentiate a 4-A feat with 2-C range from a straight up 2-C feat?
If character A barely dodges a bullet and character B can dodge it by walking or running with many obstacles, then the latter scales to the former, scales as in are comparable, not that a calc should be made putting the peak speed of character A on how they dodged that to scale to character B doing the same to get the latter's speed.

Also calling ranges with tiers is not advisable.

I guess we can finish this after we may get an accepted calc for Void Termina's feat.
 
I believe you should ask someone specific for a calc, waiting for someone to volunteer to do so won't get us anywhere.
I brought the feat up to chariot but idk if he's gonna do it or not. The rest is up to you to decide.
 
in case the calc is correct, i believe that the mid end would be the bare minimum we can take as assuming that all galaxies we see there are 3000 light year dwarfs is a really big stretch
 
The only possible issue I see with your calc is that the low end seems really low given the background info Effi provided, but I'm not a calc evaluator, so what do I know?
 
Explosions in space are impossible normally, so I would think to not use the explosion method. However, in this instance, it seems very clearly to be an explosion so at this point I don't know.
 
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