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Kirby calc issues and required recalcs

Seol404

Seol404

Joke Battles Tiering System Scholar
She/Her
Joke Battles
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Context​

So there is a fairly obvious issue with two of our calcs for the Kirby series

The calcs can be found here and here

The main issue​

Upon reading both calcs, one will immediately discover that they each use a different size of scaling for Popstar (Jupiter and Neptune respectively), now obviously I shouldn't need to point out the problem with this. The calcs cannot be compatible as they are.

Gas Giant Popstar?​

So for some reason both these calcs use Gas Giants as reference for Popstars size, I'm not entirely sure what the source for this use is, both articles allude to a reference for Gas Giant sized Popstar but neither provide a link to this source. Many canon sources directly refer to Popstar as small or tiny, now there has not been any canonical confirmation of Popstars exact size, however several references exist, albeit of dubious credibility:
So while there are sources, none are concrete, so I would like to leave the exact reference for the recalc to be discussed and determined over the course of this thread.

Who is affected​

Only the low tiers would be changed by this, since the high tiers scale far beyond both calcs.
 
Well, I'm not the best source on this, but Pop Star is played off as being pretty massive, at least in newer games, where things like entire moons can fit within the atmosphere and even a canyon iirc.

That might be why they used such a size?
 
If it is larger than other planets, I don't think the gas giants are a bad estimate, though I agree they should be matching.
 
Looking into things and a few sources.
I'm pretty sure the main issue is just that it straight up has no canonical size and can be depicted a bit different from game to game. Anywhere from being almost earth sized to completely ******* ludicrous sizes.

So not sure what would be the best way to go about this, maybe just take it's low end depiction and high end depiction and just go "at least this, possibly that"?
 
Oh also, the whole "moon in atmosphere" thing is seemingly wrong.

Understandably so, but

That doesn't look like a moon, or well, it definitely looked like one, especially in low res and on actual hardware but that's clearly not a moon if you look closely, it's like some energy thing. I could be wrong tho but still (Plus the moon from NID is shown in the same game, with it's missing chunk and all).

Someone contact Efi for this, they're bound to be helpful.
 
Chariot190 said:
So not sure what would be the best way to go about this, maybe just take it's low end depiction and high end depiction and just go "at least this, possibly that"?
Click to expand...
I'm not opposed to this if no better options are brought to the table.
 
I was close to make a thread to downgrade this after this thread. Yes, those calcs are wrong for a number of reasons:
  • The size of the planet should be this. Kirby 64 is the only game where the size of the planet is shown equal to an Earth-like planet, and even then they're not side by side, the camara just moves from 1 to another (Granted, one can tell that the models are around the same size).
  • The planet isn't a perfect sphere, it's shaped like a star when looking it at its front and is a bit more flat if looked from its side. It should taken as 5 moutains fused to each other if that makes calcs easier, given its weird structure.
  • There are 3 difficulties to the mini-game used where Knuckles Joe does the feat calc'd; the calcs use the easier difficulty, but then in the hardest the damage Knuckles Joe does to the planet is better, and that can be found a few minutes later in the same video they show.
So yeah. If no calc can be done with this stuff, it should be downgraded to Unknown. We also have some black hole calcs but realistically they shouldn't count as our standards on them are too generous.
 
Eficiente said:
The size of the planet should be this. Kirby 64 is the only game where the size of the planet is shown equal to an Earth-like planet, and even then they're not side by side, the camara just moves from 1 to another (Granted, one can tell that the models are around the same size).
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand what size you're arguing for?
Eficiente said:
The planet isn't a perfect sphere, it's shaped like a star when looking it at its front and is a bit more flat if looked from its side. It should taken as 5 moutains fused to each other if that makes calcs easier, given its weird structure.
Click to expand...
Neither of the calcs actually utilize GPE or anything so planet shape doesn't matter. Which is good, it's basically impossible to calculate for non-spheres AFAIK
Eficiente said:
So yeah. If no calc can be done with this stuff, it should be downgraded to Unknown.
Click to expand...
Nah, it's just a matter of downscaling when we settle on some size.
Eficiente said:
We also have some black hole calcs but realistically they shouldn't count as our standards on them are too generous.
Click to expand...
Even by our current standards they definitely do not qualify.
 
Third link is dead or broken, but the first two can easily be worked with (Probably the first one as it's the same game), assuming all we doing is calcing Knuckle Joe splitting the planet.
I'll do it once I get time if nobody else does by then (it's a pretty simple calc all things considered).
 
Chariot190 said:
assuming all we doing is calcing Knuckle Joe splitting the planet.
Click to expand...
Well, to be more exact I would argue Iron Mom splitting the planet (right after Knuckle Joe does it) is something most low-tiers would scale to, as Helpers can beat her, and in turn this can make sense if we see the size of the split on the planet as taking not just power, but concentration, timing and technique, as the way the minigame plays out points out.
 
I was just gonna do whoever was highest bar Kirby.

Though, there's two calcs, are we foregoing the debris and just doing the split? Or do we use the debris being launched? Because the debris obviously would be higher so calcing both might be redundant, unless we're treating that aspect as suspect and just using the split? Whichever one I don't care which, but knowing which is best to calc would be helpful.
 
Thank you all for your contributions thus far, I agree with the removal of the black hole calcs, as I was intending to get to those at some point.
 
Popstar doesn't seem any bigger than other planets in Star Allies to me, it's got bigger radius cause of its shape but it seems roughly the same otherwise. I'm fine with big-ish SS Popstar if everyone else is though. One minor complaint however we should use KSSU for this, since it's the remake and would take precedence and is also the best Kirby game
 
Well, to be fair
  • Popstar isn't right next to other planets in Star Allies, one needs to remember its size to make a comparison and Popstar is somewhat submerged next to the other worlds.
  • That map has reasons to be unexact for those measures, by the end it has what seems to be a planet/moon-sized bridge leading to the final level, but then in gameplay Kirby & co. walk in it and it's not all that much bigger than them, just a normal-sized bridge.
SS and SSU are good, but Planet Robobot is by far the most significant as the thing as Popstar can be scaled to is right next to it from the start of the game to its end.
 
Eficiente said:
Well, to be fair
  • Popstar isn't right next to other planets in Star Allies, one needs to remember its size to make a comparison and Popstar is somewhat submerged next to the other worlds.
Click to expand...
You could easily pixel scale that, after all they're 3D models, their size stays consistent.
Eficiente said:
  • That map has reasons to be unexact for those measures, by the end it has what seems to be a planet/moon-sized bridge leading to the final level, but then in gameplay Kirby & co. walk in it and it's not all that much bigger than them, just a normal-sized bridge.
SS and SSU are good, but Planet Robobot is by far the most significant as the thing as Popstar can be scaled to is right next to it from the start of the game to its end.
Click to expand...
Yeah but the way we'd get Star Dream/NOVA's size would be by looking at the MWW map anyway so that's just one extra step we shouldn't take.
 
ig, Nova was also shown in front of a ringed planet while seeming bigger than it in its first cutscene in SSU, but we most likely can't compare sizes based on it, and Star Dream has been referred to as a living "star"/hoshi, which is vague but has a decent change to refer to it being a planet just like other planets in the series are referred to as stars (using hoshi) as it seems to be common in Japan, or it can refer to it being a star or just being big & emitting light. Take their size in that SS/SSU map as real seems like a more solid point of reference.
 
I think rings aren't necessarily related to size, actually- not an expert or anything but I definitely recall hearing that. And yeah I think using KSSU is the best method.
 
I got 6 petatons for the split.
I'm still looking into calcing the hypervelocity debris though which obviously are way better, (definitely gonna be some degree of tier 5, cant say if it's moon, small planet, planet, etc though) and if a better value to calculate the split exists.

But that looks to be as low as it can go atm.
 
Sup boys.
I made a calc and i wanted you to look at it.
It is somewhat inaccurate, it was probably necessary to use a circle sided cylinder as the shape to get the volume, but here
vsbattles.fandom.com

Nightmare nukes the moon

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Kirby tanked that directly
it is either 17 petatons or 54. This calc needs a serious look as kirby was in the middle of that and was unscathed.
 
Yeah that's a bit off, but, do we need it? Kirby scales like, a trillion times higher than that yeah? I mean it'd be cool to have but I don't think it's serious.
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah that's a bit off, but, do we need it? Kirby scales like, a trillion times higher than that yeah? I mean it'd be cool to have but I don't think it's serious.
Click to expand...
I mean like
1) ik you are working on the debris calc or sth but idk nothing about it
2) i kinda just decided to calc it cause for whatever reason nobody tried it before
3) it is a good feat to fall back on, it would scale to anyone past the second game.
 
Yeah but, the calc I'm working on is for fodders, Kirby and co themselves are like tier 4, it's only like the random mooks that we need a feat for, and the Star Rod is something the mooks don't scale to. The only people past the second game that would scale to it are named major characters, not Knuckle Joe #4069.

It's a nice feat to have just to have it calced, but it's not at all needed.

Though, here's an idea, has anyone calced that ******* baffling feat of Kirby punting a meteor thousands of lightyears through numerous planets? I fear what the result would be after factoring in power/distance and the like to do so at such a speed.
I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶3̶-̶C̶.̶
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah but, the calc I'm working on is for fodders, Kirby and co themselves are like tier 4, it's only like the random mooks that we need a feat for, and the Star Rod is something the mooks don't scale to. The only people past the second game that would scale to it are named major characters, not Knuckle Joe #4069.

It's a nice feat to have just to have it calced, but it's not at all needed.

Though, here's an idea, has anyone calced that ******* baffling feat of Kirby punting a meteor thousands of lightyears through numerous planets? I fear what the result would be after factoring in power/distance and the like to do so at such a speed.
I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶3̶-̶C̶.̶
Click to expand...
I've heard that the kinetic energy for FTL feats can't be calculated, so we would need to calculate whatever destruction or displacements were caused by that if I understand that right.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I've heard that the kinetic energy for FTL feats can't be calculated, so we would need to calculate whatever destruction or displacements were caused by that if I understand that right.
Click to expand...
Never said KE, obviously that wouldn't work, but other ways do exist.
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah but, the calc I'm working on is for fodders, Kirby and co themselves are like tier 4, it's only like the random mooks that we need a feat for, and the Star Rod is something the mooks don't scale to. The only people past the second game that would scale to it are named major characters, not Knuckle Joe #4069.

It's a nice feat to have just to have it calced, but it's not at all needed.

Though, here's an idea, has anyone calced that ******* baffling feat of Kirby punting a meteor thousands of lightyears through numerous planets? I fear what the result would be after factoring in power/distance and the like to do so at such a speed.
I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶3̶-̶C̶.̶
Click to expand...

1) you might wanna see the recent revision in the staff discussion page. Kirby is getting revised. His keys are gonna be (if the revision goes through)
5-A | 4-A, likely 2-C | (3-B?) 4-A, likely 2-C

First off, a request. Coul you look at that revision? It has the link and explanation of a potentially 3-B feat, but we have no calc. This may interest you.

Secondly, Kirby will upscale from the fodder in the first key, making it actually important.

So yeah that's that.
 
Actually wait, why the **** did I even calc Iron's split if it's for Kirby and those that scale about the same? If Kirby is just using that to upscale, wouldn't it make more sense to just calc Kirby's split instead?
 
Chariot190 said:
Actually wait, why the **** did I even calc Iron's split if it's for Kirby and those that scale about the same? If Kirby is just using that to upscale, wouldn't it make more sense to just calc Kirby's split instead?
Click to expand...
Btw what do you think of the 3-B one?
 
@Arceus Thanks for the calcs.
Chariot190 said:
Though, here's an idea, has anyone calced that ******* baffling feat of Kirby punting a meteor thousands of lightyears through numerous planets? I fear what the result would be after factoring in power/distance and the like to do so at such a speed.
I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶3̶-̶C̶.̶
Click to expand...
Smash Bracket did it, it's not correct. They scaled the size of the last planet destroyed to the distance in which stuff was moving, making it lightyears in diameter, but that can't be done as the meteor was still there and we saw its size next to the last planet; if the last planet was lightyears in size then the meteor would downscale a bit from that, but we saw it being only a few times bigger than Kirby. The last planet is many dozens of times bigger than the meteor but absolutely not lightyears in diameter.

It's just a MFTL+ speed feat, and a 5-B AP feat, and maybe even in durability too as the Kirby wiki claims that if no Kirby hits the meteor, it will reach them (I asked not long ago some youtuber if they could upload footage of this, that should come up some day).
Chariot190 said:
Actually wait, why the **** did I even calc Iron's split if it's for Kirby and those that scale about the same? If Kirby is just using that to upscale, wouldn't it make more sense to just calc Kirby's split instead?
Click to expand...
Kirby has the feat and top-tiers scale to it, but the low-tiers like Helpers wouldn't, as it's more fair for them to scale as weaker than, but still able to defeat Iron Mom. Bandana Dee made the smallest crack and fought Kirby later on Revenge of the King, he could take some hits and deal some damage but got stomped in a way that should be incomparable to the size of his crack to the size of Kirby's crack, as in Kirby being much above that and so the low-tiers shouldn't be a fraction of Kirby but a fraction of Iron Mom.
 
@Arceus About the second calc, this size should be used for Popstar:
Eficiente said:
there's a part going over its size; this, this or this should be its size, the spheres lined in green should be the size of a regular planet and Popstar is bigger by that much.
Click to expand...
Also please add the "Kirby" category.

And who knows, maybe I can dig in evidence that Sectonia's forces (Some bugs that were minor enemies) kidnapped those fairies that also took the blast from many meters away, so I guess that's something.
 
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