Una-Void-able Kirby upgrades

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, like what the ****?

Not to mention that you'd need one heck of a child to even connect the dots or check the menus of every character to understand the lore.

 

[Urshani]

15 or 16 universes.

alright then

 

[Eficiente]

First of all, dissing the verse you work on like that is awkward. Nonsense? For kids? Like it isn't 100% meant for adults but they work on the lore with actual intensions and actual ideas in mind. Saying that it's nonsense is even worse dogmatism.

You are going on your own branch here. It's not dissing to call a verse for kids to be for kids and to be nonsense in the context that I used, i.e. things like Bandana Dee becoming hella strong from one game to another for no reason aside from the power of frindship, which will not be explained until years later in a much later game, I am clearly not calling the whole verse in all its factors nonsense, and as such it's wrong for you to point me out those things I already know & didn't go over about "they work on the lore with actual intensions and actual ideas in mind" and that what I say is "even worse dogmatism" as that is not the use I gave to what I said.

It's unnecessary having to make a clarification like this in a staff thread, I wouldn't have needed to if you have just stayed analyzing the comment more critically.

Second of all, i ain't denying there's a gap in power between the series, but if there is one it ain't freaking infinity. I'd close my eyes on something like a high 6-A to 4-B tier or even 4-A, but you are suggesting that kirby jumped an infinity in power without any visible powerup. I get why DBS can get from 4-B to a 3-A/low 2-C cause they've actual special transformations and stuff, but kirby doesn't. He may grow due to friendship but not to that extent.

As said before, there isn't room for a dogmatic comment like this, "the gap in power is too much" isn't a reason, not unless you want it to push it to be a reason. It is just trivia. If you do have reasons as to why it's wrong then limit youself to say that as those are the reasons, not this. I hope being clear this time.

Bring up other series like Marvel What if and Final Fantasy doesn't do anything too, please do not do that.

Also btw where the heck is it stated that Nova was summoned using 7 star roads? What?

To summon Nova you need the star power of 7 planets' Fountains of Dreams, a Fountain of Dream doesn't really do much as its power is held by the Star Rod it powers it. Kirby goes to each planet's Fountains of Dreams, gets star power from the Star Rod and moves on. That rather than talking to (Like Marx did) or beating up the sun and moon to make them stop fighting.

Kirby did not stop the battle between the sun and the moon because Marx told him not to. Kirby is gullible, he is told that's the way and so he does it that way. There's also no indication that Kirby couldn't stop Nova in a different way, assuming he wasn't strong enough is not better than assuming that Kirby just saw the ship he used and used it to destroy the Nova without causing too much collateral damage. Otherwise we might as well argue that Kirby was too weak to just punch away Haltmann's ship. Kirby just does what's conventional to him, he always did.

You are arguing away the "inferiority via implications" by claiming said implications to be 100% inapplicable with less than stellar arguments. You are unreasonably assuming Kirby was told not to when he wasn't, he was only given a way to do it w/o being told to not try easier ways, it stands to reason that this is the only way Kirby had to do this w/o other options being possible. You are unreasonably assuming Kirby was gullible enough never think of how there were other ways to solve this when the reasonable thing to think by common sense is that he couldn't, given that it's the sun and moon he would have to stop, and given how the game gives a harder, more time consuming task rather than it. I didn't say that the was an indication that couldn't stop Nova by fighting it like normal, but that he didn't and thus the possible implication exists that maybe he couldn't at the time, which you cannot place as imposible. The "Otherwise" is you bringing up an unrelated matter for no reason, in a way that should clearly not be done in a staff thread, but taking in the bait I say he didn't punch away that off his planet because it was in his planet and that would mess it up, and because that would still leave the people in it mind-controlled, with the environment and most people transformed and nothing fixed. In any case, it's his own decision, it doesn't matter, I can hax to kill Strong character A whose power has an unknown gap to mine, and then beat up Strong character B, the possibility of "Strong character A being stronger than me, hence I had to used hax to kill it" remains there in a vacuum you like it or not.

My next point is something we argued about a while ago.
Superstar Kirby should have the same AP as Superstar ultra Kirby.

Yes.

Kirby there killed Marx soul who absorbed all of Nova's power and became more powerful. He should scale to Nova.

Kirby did so by the end of the game.

Finally, on the Dark matter swordsman thing. The clone scales 100% to Mk, downscales, but still scales. He is a boss battle with decent hp. If he didn't scale he would be an enemy that MK one-shots just like any fodder. MK not being satisfied by DMC just means that the only person who can satisfy his bloodlust is someone like Galacta Knight.

This is a more off the branches version of something I already said. You know there is a saying in my country that is "To good listener, few words", just commenting.

The clone is incomplete, it is implied to not be the same as the original.

It is a clone of the original, Star Dream just didn't have all the data.

There's no evidence to suggest that it is infinitely stronger for some reason.

Yes there is. There weren't shown to be that strong before, there were gaps in power shown as clearly as the power of the crown one-shotting someone else who scaled to Kirby with better reasons than the Dark Matter Clone. Dark Matter Clone's reasons to powerscale to whole verse had its own very notable flaws. And again you grab youself to this being infinitely stronger as if it mattered for something.

Previous clones made by Star Dream have already been shown to be inferior to the originals. This makes it not that different.

No, the DDD clone was as strong as DDD, if not stronger, as it was stated. They only couldn't make it have the "perfection" DDD has, whatever that esotetic thing may be, which has no reason to be about power..

Yeah, like what the ****?

Not to mention that you'd need one heck of a child to even connect the dots or check the menus of every character to understand the lore.

As said before, you guys understood whatever from what I said, and this is not some random, casual public chat.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes.

Kirby did so by the end of the game.

Alright, we're getting somewhere now.
He did so by the end of the game but still, nothing suggests he became that much stronger within the timeframe.
Now for the next point.
Galacta Knight. Meta knight fights and beats him. He is in his base form, yes, but he was sealed away and thus had no way of gaining any more power via the power of friendship or training. He should be the exact same as when we fight him in return to dreamland. Kirby also fought and beat him.

Considering Galactic Nova should be comparable to the Robobot Nova and considering that Galacta Knight is at least as strong as Return to Dreamland Kirby and MK this would mean everyone who fights kirby in super star would at that point scale to 4-A, likely 2-C. Considering the high 6-A feat we use only appears in super star, this would leave the previous games practically featless (unless you want to try and calc the moon feat). Putting that into perspective and the fact that the keys would be nearly the same, it would be pointless to have Kirby at high 6-A in his first key and thus we should have Kirby and co at 4-A, likely 2-C | At least 4-A, likely 3-C to 2-C.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

(unless you want to try and calc the moon feat)

So it apparentaly does have a calc

 

[Arceus0x]

KE could be applicable but the rest are based on pulverization and vaporization so it doesn't really work out. It also doesn't account for the curvature of the moon.
I tried my hand at it and it got MCL but it was sphere based. Either way its an awkward feat to calculate. I still believe it is completely aimless to try and make the first key that tier.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Galacta-Knight doesn't scale to anyone in Super Star Ultra unless you account for the True Arena. Meta-Knight specifically wished upon Nova to become stronger in order to fight him in a what-if scenario.

As for there being no evidence that Kirby became infinitely stronger in RTD, there are literally infinite power statements about the Master Crown in that game and multiple about Kirby himself in Robobot, proving that his strenght is definitively comparable to it when no statement or blatant scaling really suggests so in the earlier games.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the people who wrote the "infinite power" statements in Kirby may have had some understanding of dimensional tiering, but that might just be wishful thinking and I digress.

 

[Arceus0x]

Galacta-Knight doesn't scale to anyone in Super Star Ultra unless you account for the True Arena. Meta-Knight specifically wished upon Nova to become stronger in order to fight him in a what-if scenario.

As for there being no evidence that Kirby became infinitely stronger in RTD, there are literally infinite power statements about the Master Crown in that game and multiple about Kirby himself in Robobot, proving that his strenght is definitively comparable to it when no statement or blatant scaling really suggests so in the earlier games.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the people who wrote the "infinite power" statements in Kirby may have had some understanding of dimensional tiering, but that might just be wishful thinking and I digress.

he says "My one wish is to become stronger, so I wish to fight the strongest warrior in the galaxy"

His actual wish, the one that Nova granted, was to fight Galacta knight. Nova only grants one wish, not two, not three.
He wanted to get stronger via training, not a cheap wish, thus he wanted to train by fighting the strongest warrior.
It doesn't matter if it is a what-if scenario, it shows what they are capable of.

Stop putting stuff out of context.

There's no indication that anyone in the kirbyverse grows infinitely stronger overtime and just having "infinite power statements" a few times in games with actual dialogue in them and not having them in older games that had practically no dialogue doesn't prove shiz. The statements about infinite power were made by knowledgeable characters such as Magolor and nigh-omniscient star dream. Before that Kirby's smartest opponent in the whole series was probably Meta Knight and Marx, the former not talking 99% of the time and the latter being a crazy trickster who is either smart and crazy or cunning and crazy and has like 4 sentences of dialogue overall.

 

[Eficiente]

Alright, we're getting somewhere now.
He did so by the end of the game but still, nothing suggests he became that much stronger within the timeframe.

This is getting tiresome, nothing suggests he was already that much stronger before, the series does nonsense like putting up the power of character for little reason like with Bandana Dee, they even have an in-canon reason for it that Kirby's getting a power from, the "inferiority via implications" case with Nova still stands and with Galacta Knight MK legit did his quest to become stronger, and now at the end it was Kirby's turn to face what MK did. So yes, things to suggests he became stronger, your bias just doesn't let you see it. And do not say "that much stronger" as, for the 3th time, the amount of power gained doesn't matter, it doesn't have to help you believe you're right, get it out of your head.

Now for the next point.
Galacta Knight. Meta knight fights and beats him. He is in his base form, yes, but he was sealed away and thus had no way of gaining any more power via the power of friendship or training. He should be the exact same as when we fight him in return to dreamland. Kirby also fought and beat him.

There's a note to it in his profile, that's common for time travel in fiction. Besides they beat it in non-canon modes, the ability to grow up to a certain A amount of power doesn't mean that the canon characters are that A amount of power, as that never happened. MK never did the training that ended in him fighting GK.

So it apparentaly does have a calc

That can help if someone copies it into a blog and fixes stuff needed to, too bad it's in the middle of some discussion that's not very productive.

As for there being no evidence that Kirby became infinitely stronger in RTD, there are literally infinite power statements about the Master Crown in that game and multiple about Kirby himself in Robobot, proving that his strenght is definitively comparable to it when no statement or blatant scaling really suggests so in the earlier games.

Literally as nonsensical as to say 2+2=5, Magolor wanting the crown for his power to rule over others and it being notable that the crown has infinite power logically puts said infinite power as something very notable that others would not have, Kirby being said to have that after having already defeated the crown logically puts him on the same level, even ignoring all that you can't just grab the power set in oe point in time and claim that it therefore applies to all points in time as something proven because nothing proves it.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the people who wrote the "infinite power" statements in Kirby may have had some understanding of dimensional tiering, but that might just be wishful thinking and I digress.

It's common for people who do not understand our dimensional tiering to grab in whatever like this and believe it as something that supports the use of dimensional tiering.

he says "My one wish is to become stronger, so I wish to fight the strongest warrior in the galaxy"

His actual wish, the one that Nova granted, was to fight Galacta knight. Nova only grants one wish, not two, not three.
He wanted to get stronger via training, not a cheap wish, thus he wanted to train by fighting the strongest warrior.
It doesn't matter if it is a what-if scenario, it shows what they are capable of.

Stop putting stuff out of context.

If I can do 4 sit-ups to then be able to throw cars meters away but I didn't do the sit-ups then I am not able to throw cars meters away.

Please stop commenting here, if you guys want to keep going over this sub-topic then make a private conversation between whoever cares and aims for it and when you're done come back here with the points concise and well put together, as it should have been done since before anyway.

 

[Arceus0x]

How about YOU provide the scans that disapprove of everything I've said. You keep spouting shiz and yet you link no scans. We are discussing A POINT IN YOUR UPGRADE THREAD which is to add a high 6-A key to kirby. If you disregard our points without giving full scans with evidence that somehow Meta Knight grew ∞x what he is right now by fighting galacta knight or before that or whatever the hell you are suggesting.

Actually, what the heck ARE you even suggesting? Your arguments make no freaking sense neither grammatically nor logically.
Out of your words that i did understand there is as much if not more "bias" in them than in my arguments.

You keep saying that it's all nonsense when there's no indication that there was any powering up at all until some time later in Kirby fighters.

Also

Besides they beat it in non-canon modes

Megaton punch feat getting scrapped then?

 

[Eficiente]

Then just stop, calm down, and later try to think it all more critically again.

How about YOU provide the scans that disapprove of everything I've said. You keep spouting shiz and yet you link no scans.

I needed logic, not scans, to the only things I needed to show proof of I already did in the arguments I had to give.

We are discussing A POINT IN YOUR UPGRADE THREAD which is to add a high 6-A key to kirby. If you disregard our points without giving full scans with evidence that somehow Meta Knight grew ∞x what he is right now by fighting galacta knight or before that or whatever the hell you are suggesting.

You keep saying that it's all nonsense when there's no indication that there was any powering up at all until some time later in Kirby fighters.

This is a mess. You already went over this "me needing scans" nonsense before. Stats scaling to before certain points in time weren't part of the thread and you are actively making mego in circles to deal with your arguments against it for reasons you do not have well put together, if you couldn't tell, as otherwise you would limit yourself to saying your reasons and nothing more. By logic, I do not need to prove that MK grew more powerful over time, you need to prove that he didn't, characters grow stronger, let alone for all the reasons I already gave that you keep ignoring, but know that you can't just ignore them an unlimited amount of time. All the times you already ignored the reasons are already very annoying.

Megaton punch feat getting scrapped then?

"The characters are able to do this" means no to it, but "the characters are able to do this" doesn't mean that a process for an end they can do already applies to them the end they got. Maybe an example would help you; Image Kirby or MK are Goku and by the end of a quest they battle and defeat a 2-A character in a What-If by becoming that strong, that means Goku can canonically reach that level with that much of an effort but isn't in that level in canon, I hope you get it now.

 

[Arceus0x]

Then just stop, calm down, and later try to think it all more critically again.

You've called every word i say "nonsense" enough times for me to not calm down.

I needed logic, not scans, to the only things I needed to show proof of I already did in the arguments I had to give.

Your evidence is the blog you made that you keep posting, one that has no evidence and no scans. It's just you "logic" which

This is a mess. You already went over this "me needing scans" nonsense before. Stats scaling to before certain points in time weren't part of the thread and you are actively making mego in circles to deal with your arguments against it for reasons you do not have well put together, if you couldn't tell, as otherwise you would limit yourself to saying your reasons and nothing more. By logic, I do not need to prove that MK grew more powerful over time, you need to prove that he didn't, characters grow stronger, let alone for all the reasons I already gave that you keep ignoring, but know that you can't just ignore them an unlimited amount of time. All the times you already ignored the reasons are already very annoying.

OH YES YOU DO. I have all the proof i need. This is burden of proof fallacy for you. I have evidence, that being the fact that there's no evidence of MK growing that much stronger. Let's see: no statements of growing immensely stronger, no statement of a power up...yeah the only thing that supports your argument is Meta Knight's wish to become stronger. He fought GK to become stronger, doesn't mean that he was gaining power by doing that, there's literally no change in him what so ever. He beats GK's ass and gets out of there with no visible change. Nada. Just assuming that he grew to that power is nonsense in itself. You are basing your entire argument on a headcanon you have that is at best supported by MK wanting to be stronger, despite there being no indication of him even succeeding in the wish.

"The characters are able to do this" means no to it, but "the characters are able to do this" doesn't mean that a process for an end they can do already applies to them the end they got. Maybe an example would help you; Image Kirby or MK are Goku and by the end of a quest they battle and defeat a 2-A character in a What-If by becoming that strong, that means Goku can canonically reach that level with that much of an effort but isn't in that level in canon, I hope you get it now.

Would've made sense if you had evidence that they were becoming stronger. There's no change in them what so ever.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

he says "My one wish is to become stronger, so I wish to fight the strongest warrior in the galaxy"

His actual wish, the one that Nova granted, was to fight Galacta knight. Nova only grants one wish, not two, not three.
He wanted to get stronger via training, not a cheap wish, thus he wanted to train by fighting the strongest warrior.

Shit you're right. I really wanted to participate in the discussion despite my time constraints, and as a result, I forgot to check my facts. My bad, man. This makes way more sense for MK's character.

It's common for people who do not understand our dimensional tiering to grab in whatever like this and believe it as something that supports the use of dimensional tiering.

Is this shade you're trying to throw at me right now? It REALLY seems like it. You really think I don't understand our tiering system just because I brought up some food for thought that I straight up admitted to be wishful thinking? At worst, what I said was minor derailment. You're using it as an excuse to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Literally as nonsensical as to say 2+2=5, Magolor wanting the crown for his power to rule over others and it being notable that the crown has infinite power logically puts said infinite power as something very notable that others would not have, Kirby being said to have that after having already defeated the crown logically puts him on the same level, even ignoring all that you can't just grab the power set in oe point in time and claim that it therefore applies to all points in time as something proven because nothing proves it.

Forgive my hostility, but what the **** are you saying? All I said was that the infinite power statement for Kirby supports the fact that he fully scales to the crown which has a very similar statement. You even say the same in one of your blogs if I recall correctly (which I'm pretty sure I do). I was saying all of this to show my support for the High 6-A key for Kirby that you're suggesting because your earlier arguments were starting to convince me (and because the "infinite power" statements were taking it a step further by proving that the Magolor fight isn't an outlier and that Kirby most likely wasn't that strong prior to it). I can't say the same anymore. I'm back to disagreeing with High 6-A Kirby.

 

[Eficiente]

You've called every word i say "nonsense" enough times for me to not calm down.

Making fast replies and not being calm just leads to lack of critical thinking for anyone, anyone can make mistakes even w/o that and we all deal with biases to different degrees, so the least one can do is to know when they're not at their best. Also I use nonsense as in something not making sense, it's just me disagreeing to the degree of something not making sense.

Your evidence is the blog you made that you keep posting, one that has no evidence and no scans. It's just you "logic" which

We were talking here about the matter of characters not always having the same tier, I didn't bring up the blog for it once, only some info that was there too. You're picking up a nonexistent issue.

OH YES YOU DO. I have all the proof i need. This is burden of proof fallacy for you. I have evidence, that being the fact that there's no evidence of MK growing that much stronger. Let's see: no statements of growing immensely stronger, no statement of a power up...yeah the only thing that supports your argument is Meta Knight's wish to become stronger. He fought GK to become stronger, doesn't mean that he was gaining power by doing that, there's literally no change in him what so ever. He beats GK's ass and gets out of there with no visible change. Nada. Just assuming that he grew to that power is nonsense in itself. You are basing your entire argument on a headcanon you have that is at best supported by MK wanting to be stronger, despite there being no indication of him even succeeding in the wish.

Just the same stuff you said before but said in an arrogant manner. Saying the things over and over don't make them more true, ideally one should work under the limitation to just not do that, unless you want to hang around the wrong people agreeing with you. For instance I take all that as wrong for reasons I already said, so that's that.

Would've made sense if you had evidence that they were becoming stronger. There's no change in them what so ever.

As before.

Is this shade you're trying to throw at me right now? It REALLY seems like it. You really think I don't understand our tiering system just because I brought up some food for thought that I straight up admitted to be wishful thinking? At worst, what I said was minor derailment. You're using it as an excuse to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well, I have seen people wanting to use dimensional tiering for less and people believe we use it for the weakest of reasons, so I re-put the portrayal of dimensional tiering as it is by pointing out what people do rather than leaving that wishful thinking that didn't have place in a staff thread, as it looks like "I want this character to be this strong" rather than "I judge this character to be this strong". But yes it was unnecessary from my part.

Forgive my hostility, but what the **** are you saying? All I said was that the infinite power statement for Kirby supports the fact that he fully scales to the crown which has a very similar statement. You even say the same in one of your blogs if I recall correctly (which I'm pretty sure I do). I was saying all of this to show my support for the High 6-A key for Kirby that you're suggesting because your earlier arguments were starting to convince me (and because the "infinite power" statements were taking it a step further by proving that the Magolor fight isn't an outlier and that Kirby most likely wasn't that strong prior to it). I can't say the same anymore. I'm back to disagreeing with High 6-A Kirby.

You saying that it was "proving that his strenght is definitively comparable to it when no statement or blatant scaling really suggests so in the earlier games" implied otherwise to me.

 

[Arceus0x]

says my argument is wrong
doesnt provide evidence to prove me wrong

Are we gonna be here all week or what? Your whole thing's based on a headcanon at the moment. You either give me proof or this key doesn't get to exist.

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente seems to make sense above. Would you be willing to apply the conclusions here?

 

[Arceus0x]

Eficiente seems to make sense above. Would you be willing to apply the conclusions here?

all the "sense" he has been making is based on his own statements. He refused to provide any scans for his own claims.

 

[Eficiente]

Would you be willing to apply the conclusions here?

That would be almost done, but since this calc was only accepted as "likely" correct the top-tiers would be "4-A, likely 3-C to 2-C", whereas the low-tiers who only possibly scale to the top-tiers would be "High 6-A, possibly 4-A to 3-C to 2-C", and that would be a mess to add on its own and a mess to remove if it turns out we were wrong on the manner.

I believe the 3-C calc can just be accepted in general w/o the likely with better organization, so I'll make another thread only to call in everyone who evaluated the calc, argue with them as to why the calc should be plain correct, and at best that ends up happening if I'm correct about it, which I believe I am.

So I'll lock this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please link to the new thread here after it has been posted then.

 

[Eficiente]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/discussion-about-a-certain-kirby-calc.127461/

There it is. It should get finished relatively fast, and then I will apply everything.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I will check.