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Ultra Insinct Goku vs Ultra Ego Vegeta (Rematch)
- Thread starter Spinoirr
- Start date
- 317
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Both are currently losing to Gas. However, Vegeta landed the only hit on Gas and continues to grow in power as he fights on. Goku has shown us he clearly gets weaker as the fight moves along and his UI drops. Vegeta seems to be slightly stronger at this point and the gap will widen as they fight. They start off fairly even with Vegeta gaining an advantage over time and eventually overpowering Goku or Goku's UI running out. Vegeta wins here.
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I think Vegeta would win. I just think that Ultra Ego’s advantages eclipse Ultra Instinct Goku’s advantages, as while Vegeta only grows stronger as he fights, whereas Goku’s accuracy overall decreases. Vegeta also performed much better against Granolah and Gas, which makes me confident that Vegeta wold outlast Goku and eventually overpower him.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Vegeta and Goku were shown to be equally as powerful when fighting Gas. Goku was able to dodge attacks from Gas while Vegeta couldn't, meaning it would be pretty easy for Goku to dodge Vegeta's attacks as well. Goku also took less damage than Vegeta against Gas, and while he was hit at some points, Goku was mostly uninjured, while Vegeta was bleeding after Gas striked him.
Goku also only performed worse against Granolah when he was caught off guard by Granolah's technique while his accurcy dropped, allowing Granolah to exploit his weak point. This was said in Chapter 76 when Goku said that Granolah's technique won't work on him anymore
While Vegeta can get stronger the more damaged he becomes, that wouldn't matter as Ultra Instinct would allow Goku to dodge the attacks better, and as Vegeta will get lost in his lust for battle, Goku could take advantage of that to counter Vegeta. Even with greater speed, that wouldn't necessarily help him to hit Goku as he was able to dodge attacks from Gas, who is faster than UE Vegeta.
A reminder that unlike Granolah, Vegeta can't see Goku's vital points so it would be much harder for him to defeat Goku. Also, Goku's body with UI will naturally toughen when Vegeta attacks, reducing the effectiveness of his attack which can counter him gradually becoming stronger as he gets damaged, like how Goku did when he fought Moro
Also, Vegeta's Ultra Ego has a weakness that when he gets too damaged, Vegeta will not be able to sustain it anymore and will drop from the form, and considering that it'll be very hard for Vegeta to land a hit on Goku, that even Granolah couldn't hit while he had perfect accurcy, this will make it worse for Vegeta
As for hakai, that will not work either since Goku was able to resist Vegeta's hakai as t was thrown back at them and throw the hakai ball away
Goku also got God Bind to paralyse Vegeta to hold him in his place like he did to Moro, allowing Goku to hit him more easily. God Bind was also used against Granolah iirc
Overall, nothing has changed since last match, and the reasons as to why Goku won last time should still apply here
Voting for Goku
Goku also only performed worse against Granolah when he was caught off guard by Granolah's technique while his accurcy dropped, allowing Granolah to exploit his weak point. This was said in Chapter 76 when Goku said that Granolah's technique won't work on him anymore
While Vegeta can get stronger the more damaged he becomes, that wouldn't matter as Ultra Instinct would allow Goku to dodge the attacks better, and as Vegeta will get lost in his lust for battle, Goku could take advantage of that to counter Vegeta. Even with greater speed, that wouldn't necessarily help him to hit Goku as he was able to dodge attacks from Gas, who is faster than UE Vegeta.
A reminder that unlike Granolah, Vegeta can't see Goku's vital points so it would be much harder for him to defeat Goku. Also, Goku's body with UI will naturally toughen when Vegeta attacks, reducing the effectiveness of his attack which can counter him gradually becoming stronger as he gets damaged, like how Goku did when he fought Moro
Also, Vegeta's Ultra Ego has a weakness that when he gets too damaged, Vegeta will not be able to sustain it anymore and will drop from the form, and considering that it'll be very hard for Vegeta to land a hit on Goku, that even Granolah couldn't hit while he had perfect accurcy, this will make it worse for Vegeta
As for hakai, that will not work either since Goku was able to resist Vegeta's hakai as t was thrown back at them and throw the hakai ball away
Goku also got God Bind to paralyse Vegeta to hold him in his place like he did to Moro, allowing Goku to hit him more easily. God Bind was also used against Granolah iirc
Overall, nothing has changed since last match, and the reasons as to why Goku won last time should still apply here
Voting for Goku
Gilad_Hyperstar
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You don't need to bump so quickly. You should only do it if no one posts in the thread for 12-24 hours
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Goku was bleeding pretty badly from a single one of Granolah’s pressure points and was momentarily knocked out, while Vegeta could endure those same attacks and continue fighting. That is a very big difference. Vegeta also took more of Gas’ attacks than Goku did and still fought valiantly. I also think it’s clearly been established that characters who have comparable power to Ultra Instinct can react to their attacks and fight back, like Jiren did in the ToP or when Original Power Moro kept up with Ultra Instinct Sign Goku. So even if it would be harder, I don’t think Vegeta would just be hitting air all the time trying to target Goku.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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I already explained why this logic doesn't work. Granolah: 1) Waited for Goku's UI to weaken and lose accurcy to expose his pressure points and 2) Caught Goku off guard with his technique, and Goku later said this won't work on him again. This is all explained in Chapter 76
You completely ignore the context of how this happened and why. Goku also took hits from full power Gas much like Vegeta did, and Goku remained uninjured while Vegeta was bleeding from Gas' attacks.
He kinda would. If Goku was able to dodge some attacks from Gas, then he'd definitely be able to dodge Vegeta's attacks as well.
I'm not saying Goku blitzes him obviously, and Vegeta would be able at time to hit Goku, but because of the nature of Ultra Ego, this will be rather difficult given that Vegeta will be lost in his lust for battle when using the form.
Also, you forgot that Goku has God Bind to help him immobilize Vegeta to avoid attack or to hold him to hit back. Vegeta has little counter to that as even Granolah was completely stopped by it
Even when Goku would get damaged, his body will in most cases naturally toughen out when he's about to be hit (and no, it didn't matter with Granolah since he was hit in his vital points, and caught off guard with a lowered accurcy UI). That is also how he remained relatively uninjured despite being hit by Gas, and this will happen with Vegeta as well. This was also explained by Whis when Goku fought Moro and how despite Moro matching him in power, PUI Goku was still unharmed by his mouth beam
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Bump
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Goku's accuracy drop is completely irrelevant when it's not being exploited by someone who can identify even the tiniest openings like granolah. Furthermore, an even weaker Goku with less accurate less mastered ultra instinct had an entire battle with moro without having any noticable decrease in accuracy whatsoever.
Regardless, I don't actually know who'd win, they are always portrayed as exactly equal. ultra instinct and ultra ego are basically equal opposites, like two sides of the same coin type of thing. So I am just going to go with voting inconclusive.
Regardless, I don't actually know who'd win, they are always portrayed as exactly equal. ultra instinct and ultra ego are basically equal opposites, like two sides of the same coin type of thing. So I am just going to go with voting inconclusive.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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That is true. The accurcy drop only really mattered when he fought an opponent like Granolah that exploits pressure point strikes. UE Vegeta however, likely not even gonna notice the drop in accurcy
While what you say make sense, the states of minds and their abilities are gonna matter a lot in this battle.
Vegeta being overcome with lust for battle would also leave him more open to attacks from Goku, especially if he deliberately takes damage to power himself, but Vegeta will rarely be even able to hit Goku due to UI. Eventually, Goku will accumilate enough damage on Vegeta to eventually come out on top after a very tough struggle
Also, considering how when Goku fought Moro he tanked a mouth blast from him unscathed despite previously being comparable to Moro, the same will happen with Vegeta, as Whis stated that UI will naturally toughen Goku's body when faced with an incoming attack. And before anyone says anything about Granolah, the only reason that didn't happen is because Granolah stroke his vital organs while he was off guard and had accurcy drops. Here he's fully healed and prepared for Vegeta's attacks
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Vegeta gets faster by accumulating damage so that counters ultra instinct, but he won't accumulate so much to over power completely Goku before he takes too much damage. So it cancels out into a stalemate.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes, but Goku was able to dodge attacks from the much faster Gas, who surpasses UE Vegeta as well even after boost in power and speed. This would prove difficult for Vegeta to land a hit on Goku
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So what? Vegeta is no where near his limit and he still reached gas' level who was already tagging Goku with hits.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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No he didn't. Even when boosted by Ultra Ego, Vegeta couldn't even surpass Granolah, which was confirmed by Toyotaro. He's definitely not reaching Gas' level that easily
That's not to mention that Goku's powers evolve too, as he gets naturally tougher when faced with attacks
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Vegeta 1v1s Gas for a while, and then gets fast and strong enough to slip through his defense and tag him.
That's passive stat amp, it's not increasing his actual power level. And vegeta is also getting faster, not just stronger.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Not really. All Vegeta did was to land one punch on Gas. That doesn't mean he is now equal to Gas or something.
I know he's getting faster, but since Goku can and managed to dodge attacks from Gas (while Vegeta was blitzed by said attacks), he can also dodge Vegeta's attacks as well, making it much harder for Vegeta to inflict damage on Goku.
Also, Goku can passively increase his defenses as well when he's hit by attacks. This was seen with Moro, and also here with Gas, as while Vegeta got injured by Gas' attacks, Goku remained relatively unscathed despite suffering the same hits Vegeta did
Nullflowerblush
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- Ultra Instinct excels in instinctive reactions.
- Ultra Instinct forfeits control over from the mind to the body, removing his ego from the fight. His body decides how to dodge.
- Ultra Instinct excels in defense.
- In Ultra Instinct, Goku is good at zoning his opponents, even in the air. Really good.
- Goku can also stress his body in Ultra Instinct for even more power; although, this hinders his main ability.
- Goku has several, unique, and supernatural abilities in Ultra Instinct.
- With Telekinesis, he can restrain his opponents, if need be.
- He can turn boulders to dust with an invisible blast, similar to the move used against God Zamasu.
- He can create multiple mirages of himself, akin to an afterimage, but self-acting.
The rate at which Vegeta grows in Ultra Ego is not freakishly high as most would assume. During his fight with Granolah, he went from slightly stronger than him to less slightly more stronger than him. He was still taking damage towards his climax, and Granolah eventually pushed him to his limits.
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That's amazing. Can I steal it for that skill thread thing?
Anyway Goku is not one shotting vegeta, they are just as strong as each other. In fact, one casual hakai attack from vegeta pressured Goku immensely.
Granolah beat vegeta because his own reactive power level was just that ridiculously potent as well. And he had the red eye amp on top.
I'm still sticking with Inconclusive.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Vegeta should probably be equal to PUI Goku with UE given they performed pretty much equally well against Gas
UE Vegeta was weaker than Granolah when they fought. This was confirmed by Toyotaro that at the time, Granolah was #1 strongest mortal in U7
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Actually, the attack was a combined effort from Goku and Vegeta, as both were pushing it against Gas, meaning Goku contributed to its power as well
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Bump
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Bump
Valiant_Abyss
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I'm a totally unbiased party here.
Also drafts just released last night of Gas & Vegeta's showdown, showing Vegeta tank several blows from Gas (which at least visually seem like they caused far more damage than Granolah's strikes based off of Vegeta's reactions) and then proceeding to tag Gas with blows nearly as hard, which Goku has not remotely done anything close to Gas in Goku's brief battle with Gas while also being assisted vegeta simultaneously. Gas who is capable of tagging UI goku without being a 'sniper' archetype like Granolah is caught off guard by vegeta's speed when Gas has Vegeta on the ground ready to finish him off. Goku was even preparing to intervene before vegeta got up and struck a blow.
But regardless of my own personal biases, it seems far best to just... wait until the arc is over because we're in a stage where they're actively fighting against a benchmark right now and we're learning their limits and extents.
But if I had to vote I'd go with vegeta considering the above spoiler, and add on the fact that UI's efficiency wanes the longer it's been in use. And I'm also not sure how Vegeta's lust for battle would leave openings, outside of Vegeta being more willing to take damage. Which, based off of the above spoilers doesn't seem to be as much of a problem in his second bout in the form considering he's taking bigger blows from a stronger opponent than Granolah yet still managing to move and strike efficiency and tank further blows.
And again, I'll restate that this match should probably wait until the arc is over as it seems like both these forms are about to get significant development after the whole "saiyan pride" shit.
Also drafts just released last night of Gas & Vegeta's showdown, showing Vegeta tank several blows from Gas (which at least visually seem like they caused far more damage than Granolah's strikes based off of Vegeta's reactions) and then proceeding to tag Gas with blows nearly as hard, which Goku has not remotely done anything close to Gas in Goku's brief battle with Gas while also being assisted vegeta simultaneously. Gas who is capable of tagging UI goku without being a 'sniper' archetype like Granolah is caught off guard by vegeta's speed when Gas has Vegeta on the ground ready to finish him off. Goku was even preparing to intervene before vegeta got up and struck a blow.
But regardless of my own personal biases, it seems far best to just... wait until the arc is over because we're in a stage where they're actively fighting against a benchmark right now and we're learning their limits and extents.
But if I had to vote I'd go with vegeta considering the above spoiler, and add on the fact that UI's efficiency wanes the longer it's been in use. And I'm also not sure how Vegeta's lust for battle would leave openings, outside of Vegeta being more willing to take damage. Which, based off of the above spoilers doesn't seem to be as much of a problem in his second bout in the form considering he's taking bigger blows from a stronger opponent than Granolah yet still managing to move and strike efficiency and tank further blows.
And again, I'll restate that this match should probably wait until the arc is over as it seems like both these forms are about to get significant development after the whole "saiyan pride" shit.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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Goku took the same blows Vegeta did, and while Vegeta was injured by the attacks, Goku was not, and was relatively unscathed.
Vegeta also got only one punch on Gas, so even this point isn't much. Maybe you'd have more point when Chapter 85 will release
This wouldn't matter much when it's Vegeta fighting. That only really mattered when Goku fought Granolah who can exploit weak spots, in which Vegeta would have none to hit when they'll first fight
Also, Goku's defenses will naturally strengthen when he's about to be hit. That allowed him to no sell a point blank mouth blast from Planet Moro, who was equal to Goku beforehand. Same happens with Gas when he was attacked. UI's ability to boost Goku's defenses allowed him to tank Gas' attacks without being injured, which is something Vegeta couldn't tank despite the boost from UE. That will allow Goku to counter Vegeta being stronger overtime. Whis also said that the body of UI Goku becomes as durable as it needs when he fought Moro
That will leave openings, as Vegeta will try to get damaged on purpose to become stronger overtime, but this will backfire at him since Goku will be able to dodge almost all attacks from Vegeta while the latter would get worn out from the damage more and more
Goku also was able to dodge attacks from Gas despite Vegeta getting blitzed by said attacks, so he would have no problem evading Vegeta
Vegeta didn't take that much damage (still got injured though, something that did not happen to Goku despite Gas hitting both equally as hard), so you can't really say much at this point.
However, we know from the first time he used it that if Vegeta takes too much damage, then he will not be able to sustain UE anymore and fall out of the form, which is what happened against Granolah. That is also why Vegeta became desperate to throw the hakai ball at Granolah
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I’m dying
this is practically how the last match up was. People debating on who’s better then the literal next chapter just shows who’s better. I’m picking Goku
this is practically how the last match up was. People debating on who’s better then the literal next chapter just shows who’s better. I’m picking Goku
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Pretty much yeah, though with his evolved UI Goku likely stomps Vegeta since not only he got all the advantages of UI, he now also at a big AP advantage over UE Vegeta given how he beated the shit out of Gas, who was beating Vegeta senseless (even if the latter could almost match him before he passed out)I’m dying
Valiant_Abyss
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This arc is literal bullshit with powerups. They really took "Whoever the writer wants to win" to heart huh.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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If Vegeta would've won there instead, would you still say that? Just checking
Valiant_Abyss
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No because it wouldn’t have involved 2 extra power ups (and probably more to finish this arc). I also woulda said this a few chapters ago about this arc anyways.
I’m also not sure why you’re trying to grill me about such a casual comment.
I’m also not sure why you’re trying to grill me about such a casual comment.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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I'm not assuming, I'm just asking. If the order was the opposite and Goku would lose first, would you still complain? Or not becuase Vegeta would've won?
Cause I'm not sure if the supposed problem is because of the story itself or that Goku is winning here
Cause I'm not sure if the supposed problem is because of the story itself or that Goku is winning here
Valiant_Abyss
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The story itself.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Kakarot actually stomps now. Read Chapter 85
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