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Type 5 Acausality Rewording

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Everything12 said:
@Antvasima DontTalk said what we currently have is fine.
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Antvasima said:
Okay. After checking it looks good to me as well.

What did Agnaa and other staff members here think?
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Agnaa said:
Just looking at staff and myself to make my job easier.

Agree: 5 (@Everything12, @DontTalkDT, @Agnaa, @Confluctor, @GyroNutz, @Andytrenom)

Disagree: 1 (@Ultima_Reality)

Unclear: 1 (@DarkDragonMedeus, he agreed with both DontTalk and Shiva, who argued different positions)
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Well, with me also thinking that the current version seems to make sense, we certainly seem to have a strong overweight for accepting this at least.

@DarkDragonMedeus

Can you clarify your viewpoints here please?
 
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Iirc Ultima disagree with us throwing time out of equation totally when it come to causality. DDM while agree with DT, he also disagree with throwing time out like Ultima.

That why i propose we need a note that if some verse tied time with causality, they still qualify for acausality, and we evaluate case by case rather than throwing time out totally without consideration
 
You mean a note somewhat like this.
Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for a irregular relationship with causality otherwise.
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I think Agnaa’s suggestion make sense.

Have an irregular relationship with causality but can still have regular causal interactions? Type 4.

Don’t have any regular causal interactions, indicating transcending a system of causality? Type 5.
 
I dont get the different superiority in unbound causality and unbound causality+cannot be interact. i mean there are no superiority between them, the only thing make them different just can be interact and cannot. But make them in infinitely different level, one just can be aca 4 and the next is qualify for aca 5
 
Fixxed said:
I dont get the different superiority in unbound causality and unbound causality+cannot be interact. i mean there are no superiority between them, the only thing make them different just can be interact and cannot. But make them in infinitely different level, one just can be aca 4 and the next is qualify for aca 5
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You’re not fully outside/transcendent of a causal system if you can still be interacted with under that system. So there is a superiority in being unable to be interacted with.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
You’re not fully outside/transcendent of a causal system if you can still be interacted with under that system. So there is a superiority in being unable to be interacted with.
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I think there are no different. I mean what superiority that it grant???

If causality is in plane A, and outside it will in plane B
Then type 4 and 5 will in plane B, the different between them is type 4 still can interacted by plane A but type 5 not. But both type 4 and 5 is in same plane/same degree
 
Fixxed said:
I think there are no different. I mean what superiority that it grant???

If causality is in plane A, and outside it will in plane B
Then type 4 and 5 will in plane B, the different between them is type 4 still can interacted by plane A but type 5 not. But both type 4 and 5 is in same plane/same degree
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Plane A being able to interact with the type 4 does make a difference. It means they still function off of plane A, they just have the ability to also function in plane B due to its relationship being irregular.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Plane A being able to interact with the type 4 does make a difference. It means they still function off of plane A, they just have the ability to also function in plane B due to its relationship being irregular.
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What i mean here, type 4 is in same degree as type 5 in term of superiority, they in plane B. That doesn't matter if plane A can still interack with type 4, because what i mean here is about superiority
 
I agreed with a point Shiva stated about Causality being an aspect of time. That's what Causality is is the study of cause and effect. And cause happened in a past period, which leads to an effect that happens in a future period.

As for what DT said, I mostly focused on what he said on the 1st page and it looks like both he and Shiva disagreed with the OP. I haven't checked to see how much his stance has changed since then. I'm still unsure about the outcome on second thought, but I still basically agree with Shiva's description of Causality.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agreed with a point Shiva stated about Causality being an aspect of time. That's what Causality is is the study of cause and effect. And cause happened in a past period, which leads to an effect that happens in a future period.

As for what DT said, I mostly focused on what he said on the 1st page and it looks like both he and Shiva disagreed with the OP. I haven't checked to see how much his stance has changed since then. I'm still unsure about the outcome on second thought, but I still basically agree with Shiva's description of Causality.
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Okay.

@DontTalkDT

Just to confirm, what do you think that we should do here exactly?

 
I have to continue to disagree that causality is an aspect of time. We have causality manip and time manip as different for a reason. One can't emulate all effects of causality manip via time manip, which should make it IMO obvious that causality is more general of a thing than time. And, as I said before, fiction gives us many examples of timeless voids in which a kind of causality is definitely still existent. Every timestop power is an example of causality without time, in fact.

Anyways, I still agree with the reworded draft in the OP.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Every timestop power is an example of causality without time, in fact.
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Just going to point out, in most fictional portrayals of time stop, causality is frozen alongside time.

For example, Dio freezes time and performs a bunch of punches on an enemy. Time is unfrozen and they receive a ton of damage at once. Cause and effect don't take place until time starts moving again. As the cause happens but the effect is frozen until time starts to move forwards.

That's a pretty direct showing of cause and effect being tied to time.
 
I'll have to continue to disagree with your disagreement. We separate tons of powers that technically subsume others. One could emulate the effects of causality manip with sufficiently good time manip; Risuka Mizukura as an adult can make her body unable to change by "stopping her body's time" using her time manip powers, rendering her invulnerable. Something which seems pretty close to Type 5 Acausality to me.

Fiction gives us many examples of causality in timeless voids, and those examples are nonsensical. Fiction is nonsensical at times, with things such as timestop in realms without time.

I also still agree with the draft in the OP.
 
Again i already said multiple times, we evaluate thing case by case, it is not like we hardwire causality into time, but at the same time, throw time out of causality not reasonable either.

Agnaa said:
Fiction gives us many examples of causality in timeless voids
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I can also say this is because of plot movements, when plot still moving because the author want them to, timeless void or not they still need to move
 
Anyway, since both DontTalk and Agnaa seem to agree with @Everything12 's reworded draft text in the opening post of this thread, it can probably be applied.
 
I think so, yes. Tell me here when you are done.
 
Thank you. I will lock the Acausality pages again then.

Is there anything else left to do here?
 
Nope, that's been added. They are just asking if this thread has anything to do besides the rewording I added, which it doesn't as that was the sole reason for the thread.
 
Okay. I will lock it then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.
 
Shouldn't a new thread be planned to make sure that profiles with Acausality Type 5 actually qualify for this new definition?
 
Like they said, a new thread clear of the clutter of this thread should be made to judge each of the current owners of Acausality Type 5 if they are justified. It's probably best if a admin creates such a thread and alert staff.

I don't believe Acausality Type 5 was given to that many profiles, so it should simply be an issue of gathering people knowledgeable of the profiles in question and of staff willing to do any required edits.
 
Okay. Is somebody here willing to create such a thread please? I think that it would probably be placed in our staff forum.

I can probably send a notification to request help afterwards.
 
Jinsye said:
Just going to point out, in most fictional portrayals of time stop, causality is frozen alongside time.

For example, Dio freezes time and performs a bunch of punches on an enemy. Time is unfrozen and they receive a ton of damage at once. Cause and effect don't take place until time starts moving again. As the cause happens but the effect is frozen until time starts to move forwards.

That's a pretty direct showing of cause and effect being tied to time.
Click to expand...
Agnaa said:
I'll have to continue to disagree with your disagreement. We separate tons of powers that technically subsume others. One could emulate the effects of causality manip with sufficiently good time manip; Risuka Mizukura as an adult can make her body unable to change by "stopping her body's time" using her time manip powers, rendering her invulnerable. Something which seems pretty close to Type 5 Acausality to me.

Fiction gives us many examples of causality in timeless voids, and those examples are nonsensical. Fiction is nonsensical at times, with things such as timestop in realms without time.

I also still agree with the draft in the OP.
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By definition of causality: “
: the relation between a cause and its effect or between regularly correlated events or phenomena.”

The cause is time stop and the effect is time being stopped. This actually acts as a point of being a part of causality. Not the other way around as the two of you are arguing for.

Also this is temporary as I still wish for the ban to being reapplied after I finished with specific loose ends.
 
This thread is kinda already over. That stuff has already been applied and is being left opem to discuss how profiles will be changed by the rewording.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
By definition of causality: “
: the relation between a cause and its effect or between regularly correlated events or phenomena.”

The cause is time stop and the effect is time being stopped. This actually acts as a point of being a part of causality. Not the other way around as the two of you are arguing for.

Also this is temporary as I still wish for the ban to being reapplied after I finished with specific loose ends.
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The problem with timestop isn't the actual event of the timestop itself, it's about actions taking place during the timestop.
 
Agnaa said:
The problem with timestop isn't the actual event of the timestop itself, it's about actions taking place during the timestop.
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While somewhat true, if there was any actions taken at all by the ones who was stopped by time and not the time stopper for that matter.

Also technically even the actions in the time stop is still part of causality actually still taken into effect by the time stopper. There is also where the logic falls apart as well. Causality doesn’t just stop just because the time stop is in effect, it still works independently of time itself because of the actions of the timestop user. @DontTalkDT pretty much say it the best as the argument made by @Jinsye isn’t even that logically sound as one will think.
 
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Mainly the one who does the cause is the timestopper and the effects is the result of that cause.

I should clarify that even more so especially since any actions taken during the time stop is taking into effect after the time stop ends.

Edit: I also don’t see that problem as that relevant. The flaws relies in the logic being used by Agnaa and @Jinsye
 
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