Two On One Battles Being Added to Profiles.

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the clarification help Medeus.

 

[ProfessorLord]

@Antvasima

You've decided? Are you going with Wokistan's suggestion of gradually adding who can partner with who in specific characters footnotes, while also adding this regulation?

So your just being a snitch to get any leverage over me? It was irrelevant to the discussion and you derailed the thread in doing so, despite suggesting staff usually don't do it. Really don't appreciate it.

@DarkDragonMedeus

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with staff only threads really, the whole point was me pointing out that Antvasima said he doesn't like opening it up because it tends to get derailed, yet he literally derails the thread trying to point out that "HEY THIS GUY MIGHT NOT BE TRUSTWORTHY IDK". It's just hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Antvasima]

I didn't mention it to "get leverage". I mentioned it because I am tired, busy, annoyed, worried about the EU articles 11 and 13, and genuinely have found you suspicious previous to that this discussion even started. But alright, I suppose that it was inappropriate. My apologies.

 

[Antvasima]

Now that I am less stressed, I have apologised to ProfessorLord on his message wall.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I understand that worried feeling about bad laws about to be passed. A similar thing nearly happened in Hong Kong earlier, Internet censorship. And nowadays the government (elected by 1200 selected people) can bar people from running for the Legislative Council because they support Hong Kong independence as well as disqualify legally elected legislators, that the council is now nothing but a puppet.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, the EU is planning to pass similar free speech censorship laws in Europe under the guise of copyright protection, but that is off topic, so you can talk with me about it on my message wall.

 

[Reppuzan]

Okay, let me see if I can work something out.

• Matchups that involve more than two characters (i.e. a 2v2) will only be added to profiles under specific circumstances, which are:
  • If a character canonically needs another character to fight at their full potential (i.e. Naofumi Iwatani and Raphtalia)
  • If one character is useless on their own (i.e. Gentle Criminal and La Brava)
  • If two characters are canonically known for fighting alongside one another frequently (i.e. Twinrova, Ice Climbers, and Batma and Robi)
  • Or utilize summons, familiars, or partners as their primary combat method (i.e. Pokémo Trainers and Digimo Tamers).

In all honesty, this isn't much different from Ant's draft, but I added a fourth category to accommodate matchups where characters who are known to fight alongside one another regularly but don't fall under the other three categories created.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Thank you for the help. That seems fine to me.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Looks good @Reppuzan

 

[Crzer07]

Where would rival dualities (Goku and Vegeta, Beerus and Champa, Tyson Granger and Kai Hiwatari, WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon, EmperorGreymon and MagnaGarurumon, ExVeemon and Stingmon, Alphamon and Omegamon, Ryu and Ken, Dante and Vergil, Inuyasha and Sesshomaru, Ash Ketchum and Gary Oaks, Naruto and Sasuke, Natsu and Gray, Madoka Kaname and Homura Akemi, Mega Man X and Zero, etc.) fall under?

 

[Antvasima]

They can, and usually do, fight independently, so I am not sure if including them is a good idea.

 

[Nico-v11]

Depends. Can we go into specifics? I mean Naruto and Sasuke fight frequently alongside in pre-shippuden and towards the end of shippuden so an extra rule dictating only using the versions of said characters where they worked together could only be used.

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm unsure about the third scenario in Reppuzan's suggestion that is when two Characters are known for frequently fighting together. The rest is perfectly fine though.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Andy

Well, they would have to be paired up regularly so that we'd know how they'd act while fighting alongside each other.

No Jotaro Part 3 and Jotaro Part 4 pairings, but Rakan and Xayah or Batman and Nightwing would be acceptable.

 

[Mand21]

I believe the category added by Reppuzan can be fixed easily by making so it requires the duo involved to fight alongside each other so often they seem synonimous (like somebody said already). This would eliminate the ambiguity.

Also, would that third category allow things like "pack of wolves" to be added? Given that animal pretty much always fights in groups and has its main fighting strategy be a group strategy (coordinated pack hunting), just like bees and hives, though with more individuality.

Ex:

• If two characters are canonically known for mainly fighting alongside one another with enough co-dependency that their names seem synonimous (i.e. Twinrova, Ice Climbers, Sora and Shiro ("Blank"), and Batma and Robi)

 

[Reppuzan]

@Mand21

I'm worried about that being too specific.

For instance, would it be wrong to allow Part 3 Joseph Joestar to be paired with Jotaro Kujo?

 

[Mand21]

@Mand21
I'm worried about that being too specific.

For instance, would it be wrong to allow Part 3 Joseph Joestar to be paired with Jotaro Kujo?

If they fight together so often they are a coherent team who complements each other, yes. If they just sometimes pair up... no?

Maybe you could replace that "synonimous" part with them being a team that complements each other, even if they don't really need each other. Still, letting fight together anyone who fights together in canon is unnecessary and problematic.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Mand21

Yeah. I'm just saying that close teammates should be allowed rather than characters who are just "synonymous" with each other.

So Mega Man X and Zero would be a worthwhile pair, but Batman and Lex Luthor wouldn't.

 

[Wokistan]

Repp's suggestion for who exactly they're allowed to partner with seems good, while I personally wouldn't go for pairings like Batman and Robin it's not that big a deal. Just give the characters this affects lists of valid partners in the notes section of the profile, and it should be good.

 

[Mand21]

Okay, makes sense. In this case:

• If two characters are canonically known for fighting alongside one another frequently and complement each other in battle (i.e. Twinrova, Ice Climbers, Sora and Shiro ("Blank"), and Batma and Robi)

So it becomes:

• Matchups that involve more than two characters (i.e. a 2v2) will only be added to profiles under specific circumstances, which are:

• If a character canonically needs another character to fight at their full potential (i.e. Naofumi Iwatani and Raphtalia)

• If one character is useless on their own (i.e. Gentle Criminal and La Brava)

• If two characters are canonically known for fighting alongside one another frequently and complement each other as a team (i.e. Twinrova, Ice Climbers, Sora and Shiro ("Blank"), and Batma and Robi)

• Or utilize summons, familiars, or partners as their primary combat method (i.e. Pokémo Trainers and Digimo Tamers).

What do you think of this version? You may also want to make your own, I don't know. You do you.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should remove Batman and Robin as an example. They do not really tend to fight together via advanced teamwork in a co-dependent manner in the comicbooks, so it can easily be misunderstood.

 

[CursedGentleman]

Seriously though

Would Shaggy and Scooby be on this thing? They did fight together against the Black Samurai and even on some games they do that

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should preferably only focus on characters whose entire defining trait is their co-dependent teamwork.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah the exceptions should only include cases where separating a character from their partner actually alters their own effectiveness as a fighter.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Okay now that you've got your regulation ready, time to address this:

"Are we just accepting "main" characters to work with their "side" characters now? For Link and Navi to work together? For Red to work with his Pokémon? For Master Chief to work with Cortana?

If so this already generates inconsistencies that require profile changes and edits. Red has all his "side" characters on one profile. Link and Navi have separate profiles despite Navi being useless. I don't recall seeing Cortana anywhere on Master Chiefs profile. Which of these profiles now become the standard? Do all side characters now have to have separate pages? Do all side characters need to be listed on the main characters page? Do we not acknowledge them at all?

Putting in this rule just so is going to generate a lot of miscommunication, a lot of people getting threads shut down because they don't know what two characters are partners and not, and a lot of inconsistencies between character pages. I don't see you avoiding this and not editing relevant character pages, site wide."

"I have more inconsistencies upon rereading Antvasimas latest revision. Xayah and Rakan, Nana and Popo, Batman and Robin, Cup head and Mugman. None of these characters are useless without each other, but it still falls under the guise of them needing each other to reach full potential. Xayah and Rakan both have separate pages, but Ice Climbers don't? Despite them never working together in the original NES game? Twins from Outlast also share a same page, despite both alternating their chase of the main character, never working together. What do we do to these pages? Ignore them and leave the inconsistencies?"

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

I feel like only allowing characters that are utterly co-dependent is too restrictive.

Most characters in fiction aren't synonymous pairs. There are many who are very good teammates.

If we're allowing 2v2 matches, then we should also allow reasonable pairings outside of narrowly defined standards.

 

[Mand21]

In the present cases like Ice Climbers where one can have a single character be used, we can put victories in their profiles and say "Only Character A was used". Where separate, we can say "Character B was a teammate". The page inconsistencies don't need so many edits. They just need the kind of notes we already do for other stuff.

Having an objective rule like the one mentioned is enough. The "Separating both characters needs to alter their effectiveness" rule should be enough. The way I wrote is possibly sufficient, although it can be fixed to meet Antvasima's wishes with a "supplement" instead of "complement". Like this:

• Matchups that involve more than two characters (i.e. a 2v2) will only be added to profiles under specific circumstances, which are:

• If a character canonically needs another character to fight at their full potential (i.e. Naofumi Iwatani and Raphtalia)

• If one character is useless on their own (i.e. Gentle Criminal and La Brava)

• If two characters are canonically known for fighting alongside one another frequently and supplement each other as a team (i.e. Twinrova, Ice Climbers, Sora and Shiro ("Blank"), and Batma and Robi)

• Or utilize summons, familiars, or partners as their primary combat method (i.e. Pokémo Trainers and Digimo Tamers).

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Well, personally I think that we should make this rule quite restrictive, or it will open the door for almost any teamup matchup as long as the characters are part of the same continuity.

Narrowly defined standards lessen the chance for misinterpretations.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

I understand your concerns, but that leads to weirdly restrictive matchup rules.

For instance, by your version of the ruling, Sora and Riku would never be allowed to team up but Ice Climbers will.

That's why I say we should restrict it to close teammates who known to regularly work together rather than randomly mishmashing characters from the same series.

This will open up new matchup options while keeping things from being unreasonable with wild guessing on how pairups would function in a debate.

 

[Mand21]

@Reppuzan

We cannot allow characters to fight together just because they're good at fighting together if they're also great solo fighters, can we? After all, being able to beat an opponent via ganging up on them is completely different from being able to beat an opponent at the circumstances at which you're at your best.

 

[AstralKing7]

It should only be for characters who have considered each other a team or partners. Take Naruto and Sasuke for example. They both have a key that depends on one another to use but they weren't exactly a team back in the war arc against Obito.

 

[Chartate101]

I know she doesn't have a profile (yet), but what about Elie and Joel from the Last of Us? There's only segment where they fight seperatly.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Okay. Noted, but I still do not think that Batman and Robin is a bad example, and Sora and Riku do not fight much via teamwork either as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Never mind. I trust your sense of judgement.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

The entire final boss fight in Kingdom Hearts II is the two of them working together. Most of Kingdom Hearts I, II, and III has Sora working with Donald and Goofy as well.

Small teams of characters who are closely related and regularly fight together in the source work should not be an issue in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that should probably be fine then.

 

[Mand21]

I believe the present rule model can already be added. Is anything else necessary? Should we clarify that only duos are allowed, is there the possibility of more than that (like I mentioned, multiple individuals from a race profile that is known through pack hunting)...?

Is there anything in the present arguments that isn't covered in the rule we wrote?

Just to know what else we need.

 

[Andytrenom]

I have something to say about all this but I can't at the moment (it's getting really late here, past 11:00 pm actually). So please wait for me if you can.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[ProfessorLord]

So we're allowing for not just integrated partners like Link and Navi, but also non integrated partners like Cuphead and Mugman? I've already laid down the foundation for this in my previous post, I'll just replace "put under standard equipment" with "put under footnotes". Keep in mind I intend for it to be a gradual change, and only applies to relevant characters, so not a lot to be honest.

"(TYPE A) This is for those who have a partner, work with their partner often enough where the two seem synonymous, but still have the ability to function on their own. Characters who meet these criteria should have each other listed under their footnotes, clarifying they can be used together, becoming stronger thanks to each other. These would be characters like Nana and Popo, Batman and Robin. All of them would have seperate pages, of course, they would just be referenced and linked to each other in their footnotes. Of course, partners can be restricted, in fact, common sense says we should automatically assume so unless told otherwise.

(TYPE B) If one of the characters seems like the "main" character and the other a "side" character, with the "main" character still being able to function while the "side" character cannot, they would go under one profile. It would be unnecessary to have another profile for the "side" character since we've already established they can't function without the "main". These would be characters like Master Chief and Cortana, Link and Navi. All of them would go under the "main" characters page, and while they would be listed under standard equipment, they would have their own mini "profile" under the notable abilities/attacks section. These type of partners cannot be restricted unless you're taking the character from a specific key in which they don't have their partner.

(TYPE C) If a character seems like a "main" character, and they bring in another character mid-fight, the character they brought in would be classified and treated as a "summon". This would be characters like Jotaro Kujo and Star Platinum, Yu Narumaki and Izanagi. They would only be referenced under notable attacks/abilities. Basically they would remain unchanged. These type of partners usually cannot be restricted, as that's the same as restricting abilities. Of course, if a character has a key in which they don't have their summoning ability, its fair game.

So how would we add a victory in a teamfight? Well in the case of Type A, we would add the victories and defeats to both of the partners character pages, as there were two profiles and two characters involved in that one fight. In the case of Type B, we would only have to add them under one profile, the "main" characters profile. Same goes for Type C."

Would this be an appropriate way to handle which characters can team up with each other? You can have the discussion rule as well, this just clarifies anu confusion.