King of Fighters XIV/XV Tier 2 Upgrade & Keys Revision

[Jamesthetaker]

Well... there's nothing particularly wrong with the argument.

It's just that when I first watched the story mode and saw the described feats, I found it to just be an absurd leap in character strength, even if we has some space-time nonsense as far back as XIII. I'm more resistant towards it because of vibes and personal bias, and the most drastic AP change I could be content with would be having the Low 2-C marked as "possibly" or "likely". I'm probably just being stubborn at the moment.

True, a massive tier jump can feel absurd, but per the wiki rule, as long as the feat is not proven to be an outlier, it is acceptable.

Narratively, Dolores planned for both Shun'ei and Isla to face Verse/Re Verse at the end of the tournament, and Najd's mission is to defeat the Dimensional Beast, so she should be strong enough to face Otoma=Raga.

But I'm guessing you haven't made your mind yet, so I won't count you in the votes yet.

Tbh im not sure with tier 2 physicals ngl, i guess if some staff agree those are legit and all then its ok

Although to be clarified, Verse/Re-Verse scale to these too? Since characters like Orochi were apart of Verse too and he was weakened when found out by sacred treasures in kof14, which may suggest Orochi is scaling to this power too, although he is stated Otoma Raga far surpasses him clear and cut, but nothing of sort is suggested with Verse/Re-Verse

Also afaik only Iori, Chizuru and Kyo could stand up to Orochi, although not sure if they would scale to him physically, given they succeed thanks to their sealing powers mainly and Orochi is portrayed as boss beyond anyone in the series overall, except for Otama Raga now, but yeah

This is the reason why I suggest that the characters should have their tiers split by the game sagas. If we decide to backscale Otoma=Raga to KOF '97 Orochi, we risk running into circular scaling because all characters would scale to the Low 2-C feat before it even happened in KOF XV. Orochi's canonical stats should mostly reflect his power during KOF '97, which is the only canonical instance where he actually fights. His appearances in other games are only mentioned or brief, but that will be when I address the issue of previous game scaling.

In terms of scaling, I see no reason why the Sacred Treasures trio should not scale to Orochi, given that they can deal enough damage to make him barely stand, which is sufficient evidence for them to scale. Chizuru stated that the only way to defeat him was through sealing, which I believe has to do with Orochi's nature as Gaia's will rather than just his raw power.

And yeah, Verse/Re Verse can scale to Tier 2 because they can fight Team Shun'ei and Team Rivals, who then fight Otoma=Raga.

I feel like the other games gotta be tackled before jumping to the kof14-15 presenting these insane jumps in power and then we can talk on them

Well, the goal of splitting keys is to make it easier to manage the powerscaling of each game saga. KOF XIV and XV, in particular, have a significant enough tier jump that previous powerscaling will (mostly) have no effect on the current game's scaling, making it easier for us to work with. I have recently re-read previous game stories, and I can say that the tiering of those games would require more work.

Anyway, I would add your agreement to the votes.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

This is the reason why I suggest that the characters should have their tiers split by the game sagas. If we decide to backscale Otoma=Raga to KOF '97 Orochi, we risk running into circular scaling because all characters would scale to the Low 2-C feat before it even happened in KOF XV. Orochi's canonical stats should mostly reflect his power during KOF '97, which is the only canonical instance where he actually fights. His appearances in other games are only mentioned or brief, but that will be when I address the issue of previous game scaling.

Thing is at times some past characters will be included or elaborated in present titles and as such if in modern ones arent as powerful, it becomes a case they scale to their peak from the past to modern stuff in there is a case

Cuz afair Orochi was part of Verse in kof14 among other dead characters across sagas and such and the sacred treasures trio found him and sealed him before he could return like Rugal or Goenitz did

i seen many times a lot of back and forth if Verse was canonically stronger then Orochi due to having him among the souls, but that ending in 14 suggests he wasnt in best shape and thus was stopped before returning for good while weakened, which also begs the question if Verse can even be argued above Orochi, only Otoma Raga is stated directly to be above Orochi and thats by the trio you fight in 97, but Verse case doesnt have such direct statement, so see where the pain is regarding scaling

Now prolly there is more to this to adress, but this is a persistent thing i seen with kof scaling especially when kof14 was new around, also there is its manga of the game which is another can of worms, especially regarding canonicity and scaling, like Geese beating Verse

In terms of scaling, I see no reason why the Sacred Treasures trio should not scale to Orochi, given that they can deal enough damage to make him barely stand, which is sufficient evidence for them to scale. Chizuru stated that the only way to defeat him was through sealing, which I believe has to do with Orochi's nature as Gaia's will rather than just his raw power.

There was a statement from something like a guide i think or similar which stated and implied heavily he is beyond the cast of the series, let alone how he is portrayed in generic endings as just toying around with the team he faces and returns to his sleep, telling them he will return again and gives them a chance for the future

Not sure if Kyo claim is believable given Chizuru states there too he was still not put down despite their previous attack and even with Orochi Iori there is stated his power is too much and they had to seal him to win, so him "barely standing" they his power still was too great and had to hurry is not screaming imo they were physically comparable to him

And yeah, Verse/Re Verse can scale to Tier 2 because they can fight Team Shun'ei and Team Rivals, who then fight Otoma=Raga.

Ok

Well, the goal of splitting keys is to make it easier to manage the powerscaling of each game saga. KOF XIV and XV, in particular, have a significant enough tier jump that previous powerscaling will (mostly) have no effect on the current game's scaling, making it easier for us to work with. I have recently re-read previous game stories, and I can say that the tiering of those games would require more work.

Yeah but thats why is better to establish the power progression of the verse from the beginning, kof profiles are very outdated now and its better to get their stats fixed in previous sagas and see how powerful they are in the start and as it goes later, then see how it compares to modern sagas

Its not impossible for a huge power spike as it goes on for a series, but you gotta need to show a city level series (as it is now, could be way higher then presented actually) jumping to levels of goku vs beerus clash is justified, even if you get it accepted, a user or staff may look at the huge gap from the profiles and question it, then try to remove that and honestly with how most view fighting games overall also, its tough you know

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Personally i would have saved these for later to argue given the past games and other titles part of kof arent updated and then come to this

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Thing is at times some past characters will be included or elaborated in present titles and as such if in modern ones arent as powerful, it becomes a case they scale to their peak from the past to modern stuff in there is a case

Cuz afair Orochi was part of Verse in kof14 among other dead characters across sagas and such and the sacred treasures trio found him and sealed him before he could return like Rugal or Goenitz did

i seen many times a lot of back and forth if Verse was canonically stronger then Orochi due to having him among the souls, but that ending in 14 suggests he wasnt in best shape and thus was stopped before returning for good while weakened, which also begs the question if Verse can even be argued above Orochi, only Otoma Raga is stated directly to be above Orochi and thats by the trio you fight in 97, but Verse case doesnt have such direct statement, so see where the pain is regarding scaling

The powerscaling that I am attempting to establish is a "chronological arcs" scaling, which means that all of the characters in KOF XIV/XV are rated based on the feats that occurred during those arcs, or upscaled to feats from the previous arc if nothing has changed in tiering. Orochi's appearance in these games is minor and weakened, so we do not know how strong he is, it is all speculation.

If Orochi appears in a future game and fights the cast, he will scale to Low 2-C or whatever rating they are at the time.

Now prolly there is more to this to adress, but this is a persistent thing i seen with kof scaling especially when kof14 was new around, also there is its manga of the game which is another can of worms, especially regarding canonicity and scaling, like Geese beating Verse

The manga has a very different plot compared to the games, so it's non-canon to the main series.

There was a statement from something like a guide i think or similar which stated and implied heavily he is beyond the cast of the series, let alone how he is portrayed in generic endings as just toying around with the team he faces and returns to his sleep, telling them he will return again and gives them a chance for the future

Not sure if Kyo claim is believable given Chizuru states there too he was still not put down despite their previous attack and even with Orochi Iori there is stated his power is too much and they had to seal him to win, so him "barely standing" they his power still was too great and had to hurry is not screaming imo they were physically comparable to him

They can fight and harm Orochi even if he wasn't at full power all the time, that's still viable for scaling. It is not like Orochi was wiping the floor with them or anything remotely resembling a one-sided match, so they at least can be downscaled from Orochi.

Although it is more likely that Orochi will upscale from whatever feats KOF fighters have than the other way around, I will drop this conversation for the time being.

Yeah but thats why is better to establish the power progression of the verse from the beginning, kof profiles are very outdated now and its better to get their stats fixed in previous sagas and see how powerful they are in the start and as it goes later, then see how it compares to modern sagas

Its not impossible for a huge power spike as it goes on for a series, but you gotta need to show a city level series (as it is now, could be way higher then presented actually) jumping to levels of goku vs beerus clash is justified, even if you get it accepted, a user or staff may look at the huge gap from the profiles and question it, then try to remove that and honestly with how most view fighting games overall also, its tough you know

I know I am working backward from the series timeline, which is kind of awkward. However, as previously stated, KOF XIV/XV are easier to powerscale due to the Low 2-C feat, and I have already explained why the characters scale to it. Hence, the whole reason why this thread exist.

I understand how frustrating it is when someone tries to remove something you have worked so hard to get accepted, but I will not leave the profile as it is for long because I am re-reading previous game stories to begin working on powerscaling them.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

The powerscaling that I am attempting to establish is a "chronological arcs" scaling, which means that all of the characters in KOF XIV/XV are rated based on the feats that occurred during those arcs, or upscaled to feats from the previous arc if nothing has changed in tiering. Orochi's appearance in these games is minor and weakened, so we do not know how strong he is, it is all speculation.

Should be adressed though on the matter given as pointed, just the kof15 boss was said directly to surpass him, Verse only thing to suggest anything is the souls of dead powerful characters, but Orochi in particular wasnt shown to be like his 97 level

The manga has a very different plot compared to the games, so it's non-canon to the main series.

Heard there were events from it referenced to have occured in current games and there was an old thread talking on that, along an interview that says they may have stuff from it used on canon, couldnt hurt looking into it better

I know I am working backward from the series timeline, which is kind of awkward. However, as previously stated, KOF XIV/XV are easier to powerscale due to the Low 2-C feat, and I have already explained why the characters scale to it. Hence, the whole reason why this thread exist.

Yeah but these jumps could also be argued easily to not be considered so you kinda need a strong case

Well i will wish you luck on that regardless

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Heard there were events from it referenced to have occured in current games and there was an old thread talking on that, along an interview that says they may have stuff from it used on canon, couldnt hurt looking into it better

Hmm, I will look into it to see what I can make of it.

Yeah but these jumps could also be argued easily to not be considered so you kinda need a strong case

Well i will wish you luck on that regardless

Thank you

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.