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Two incredibly skilled swordsman fight each other

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"is objectively a better swordsman than Zahard is" That's unquantifiable, unless you go with the experiance route, zoro is casually 13 gigatons but zahard was casual too when he tanked 8 Gigatons, arguably more casual than zoro he didn't even move to tank the attack(i could be wrong about this).

I thought i read in the manga he mentioning that the only reason it took so long to beat Pika was because his observatin haki was kinda shitty, i'm sorry. Jumping in the air against a faster opponent that can fly is never a good idea.

That wasn't an argument, i was just saying that training with the best swordsman in the word doesn't mean much

As i said before both were casual feats, you have to go with 13 and 8 Gigatons

Zahard's stamina should be at least equal to Baam's if not greater(hundreds of years of constant fight)
 
You're argument doesn't make much sense and to be frank frank is very incoherent and false.


1: That's certainly quantifiable. It's a shown and visual feat done by a massively inferior Zoro. And feats >> statements. And you keep missing the point here. Zoro can casually one shot characters who preform 13 Gigatons with ease. Meaning he'd be able to do the same to a weaker character than Pica.


2: No that was never stated. The reason why it took him so long to beat Pica was because Pica kept avoiding him when Zoro got close.


3: That does mean a lot here. Mihawk is a much better swordsman than Zahard is. Again you keep missing the point. Zoro tanked attacks from a casual 13 Gigatons character and one shot them. Ergo he can tank 8 Gigaton attacks and one shot them. It's rather simple.
 
Oh, more responses here. Awesome.

Comparing Zoro's feat to Zahard's feat, it should be rather clear that Zahard's feat was far more casual than Zoro's. Just straight up. However, the numbers are what they are, and Zoro was able to one shot a 13 gigaton character, while Zahard is unquantifiably above 8 gigatons. So Zoro should be able to one shot. Fair enough. Though it should be noted that I never claimed Zahard should hold the AP advantage, only that they should be closer than what was said previously. 4x is typically needed to one shot, so seeing as how 1.6x is far below that, it should be quite simple to follow the logic.

Zoro's first issue will be reaching Zahard. It's been stated throughout the thread that Zoro can leap at Zahard, as well as use shockwaves, but I see no reason as to why these options aren't countered by flight and the shinsu black hole sphere respectively. Zahard isn't going to just sit there as Zoro leaps at him. He'll likely move out of the way, hitting him with bangs and whatnot as he moves out the way. Or using a shinsu black hole sphere to ward off any long ranged attacks.

With flight and the black hole sphere, I genuinely have a difficult time seeing how Zoro will even manage to hit him in the first place. Not to mention both Cosmos and Second Cosmos, which not only work as fantastic AoE options, but can also blow Zoro back to allow Zahard to play a ranged game, seeing as how his ranged options are superior to the ones Zoro has at his disposal.

I also see conflicting views on the skill advantage/disadvantage. How do we know Mihawk is a better swordsman? Why does that matter as Mihawk isn't Zoro and is clearly more skilled than Zoro.
 
It seems like the bases for Zoro's win is that he has the AP advantage, which Teon has somewhat countered( yes not fully countered, but it's still delt with) After all it has never stopped Zoro and the rest of the gang from deafeting opponents that are stronger then them.

Zahard has his versitile abilities, his flight, his AOE attacks, and his Black Hole Sphere and Zoro's only real counter to those is his AP and Dura Advantage, and while thats nice and all initially if he keeps getting hit over and over again then it will be a problem. especially if it comes at a rate like this. Weak they may be but at this rang in AP between them it will affect Zoro over time.
 
Teon himself admitted Zoro can one shot. Numbers are numbers, and Zoro can tank attacks from Pica. If he can tank attacks from Pica he can tank attacks from Zahard, a weaker character.
 
Litentric Teon said:
Though it should be noted that I never claimed Zahard should hold the AP advantage, only that they should be closer than what was said previously. 4x is typically needed to one shot, so seeing as how 1.6x is far below that, it should be quite simple to follow the logic.
Click to expand...
Not really. ( this is ment for knight Apologies Teon.)
 
Actually a one shot isn't something we can quantify. While the gap numbers wise is only 1.6 Zoro has been shown to tank attacks from stronger people than Zahard himself.
 
But the counter I placed, which seems to have been ignored here, is that Zoro will find it incredibly difficult, if not impossible to actually land a hit on Zahard in the first place, who can dodge Zoro's entire close range arsenal simply by flying, and who can counter the vast majority of his long range options with the shinsu black hole sphere, which also, mind you, has the potential to one shot Zoro. And, once again, Zahard's feat was far more casual than Zoro's. Maschenny couldn't even harm Zahard, and not damage at all, is far greater than taking scratches, or having to use haki to complete the one shot. Meaning Zoro had to amplify himself to one shot Pica.

It doesn't change the fact that he one shot Pica, no. It just seems like these facts have been ignored in favor of other things. Zahard is plenty able to evade Zoro, especially since he should have a bit of a speed advantage.
 
@Teon

Wait ... Zahard said that Redan Maschenny was slow and she at Base is Massively Hypersonic far above 836 Mach and when she uses Redan she increases speed twice, and the minimum for several times is 3X, if Zahard called her slow, she with Redan should be Massively Hypersonic+ above 3X the baseline and Zahard called her slow, so Zahard's speed advantage is huge, since he must also be Massively Hypersonic+. I think this can be a big advantage for Zahard.
 
There's no potential that it would one shot Zoro as it doesn't negate durability nor is it a real Black Hole. That's irrelevant, and the speed difference is taken care of Zoro's own durability and Kenbunshoku Haki. Also he himself is scaling massively above Mach 200 to the point where he's likely baseline MHS+ by now but I can't assume that. Point is Zoro is more than capable of keeping up, albeit he'd be the slower of the two. And again, Zoro can just as easily throw his attacks to the side and redirect them via Tatsumaki. Also it seems that you keep mistaking the 13 Gigatons feat for Zoro's own feat. It isn't, it came from Pica creating Flower Hill with extreme ease. And again you miss the point with Busushoku Haki, it's something Zoro primally uses to protect his swords from chipping and he spams it very early on. And yes, while he can avoid Zoro he can always just tank the damage. I'm a lot faster than a tree doesn't mean I can damage it with my hands. ( A bit of a hyperbole on my end but you understand the point. ) Edit : Also Zoro should actually have better range. His range should be kilometers.
 
There actually is. Baam used it during the Floor of Death Arc, and one shot one of Hell Joe's Henchmen who was superior to him. The Black hole sphere has potential to one shot characters stronger than oneself.

I read the above, and I'm aware that the 13 gigaton feat belongs to Pica. Whom Zoro one shot with armament haki. Regardless of what he used it for, this is still a form of statistics amplification that he deemed necessary for the battle.

The tree and your hands analogy, while I see the point, doesn't seem to work as the difference should be more than 1.6x. The above does not answer how Zoro will actually be able to land a hit on Zahard, only that Zahard won't be able to hurt Zoro, which isn't exactly true. Damage accumulates over time, and Zahard's danmaku/ranged attacks, are far better than what Zoro has faced. Kuma's attacks simply don't compared to Zahard's, who is capable of spamming far more of them and at the same time, with homing properties should he choose. And, once again, Cosmos and Second Cosmos can give him some much needed space, as well as aid in racking up damage. In particular with the speed advantage. They both scale to being massively superior to massively hypersonic feats. But, must like the AP, the numbers are what matter the most here. Zoro will be hard pressed to keep up with someone who is 3-4x faster, even with observation haki.

Though, quick question on observation haki, as it doesn't prevent people like Luffy or Sanji who are better at it from getting hit. Katakuri can see a couple seconds into the future with it. So, how far ahead can Zoro see as his is the worst of the group? One second? Two?
 
Well, Zahard called a slow a character who had increased his speed by at least 3X and that was far above Mach 836 in Base so I think this can help a lot Zahard. But I think this is possible Speed Blitz for Zahard against Zoro. And where are you based on the fact that Zoro is on the baseline of MHS+? It may be well far above 200 Mach, but I bet Zoro does not have 400 Mach.

Well, since Zoro can not keep up Zahard because of the huge speed difference and neither Zahard can hurt Zoro and that does not nullify the fact that attacks that are not based on physical attacks can not do much against Zaharad because of Shinwonryu, I doubt very much that Zoro could handle a Shinwornyu straight from Zahard, this technique is strong enough to dissipated character attacks vastly superior to the user.
 
@Enryu

I don't think it's a stomp. Zahard has advantages in this fight, even if he can be one shot. Also, I'm fairly certain we can't apply multipliers like that. We just know that he and Zoro are both unquantifiably above the calcs they scale from.
 
@Teon

Well, but I think Zahard is far superior to baseline MHS + for slow calling a character that was far superior to Mach 836 with a speed enhancement a couple of times or multiple times. Well, even if it does not have an exact multiplier for Redan I think it's above 2X or 3X at the very least, and even using the maximum possible downgrade of 2X speed, Mashcenny will still be up to twice the MHS + baseline and Zahard is far superior to her.
 
There actually is. Baam used it during the Floor of Death Arc, and one shot one of Hell Joe's Henchmen who was superior to him. The Black hole sphere has potential to one shot characters stronger than oneself.


congrats, that just puts him above 8 Gigatons by an uncertain amount. Regardless Zoro tanks attacks from those who are stronger than the opponents this Zahard has fought. Occam's Razor and numbers are in his favor here. You Can't assume he's any higher than 8 Gigatons because he one shot someone who's stronger than he is. The best you can assume is that he'd be scaling above 8 Gigatons which I don't doubt. It's the equivalent of me saying Zoro is 30 Gigatons for one shotting Pica.


I read the above, and I'm aware that the 13 gigaton feat belongs to Pica. Whom Zoro one shot with armament haki. Regardless of what he used it for, this is still a form of statistics amplification that he deemed necessary for the battle.


Again this is irrelevant. Zoro uses Busushoku early on so your point is moot.


The tree and your hands analogy, while I see the point, doesn't seem to work as the difference should be more than 1.6x. The above does not answer how Zoro will actually be able to land a hit on Zahard, only that Zahard won't be able to hurt Zoro, which isn't exactly true. Damage accumulates over time, and Zahard's danmaku/ranged attacks, are far better than what Zoro has faced. Kuma's attacks simply don't compared to Zahard's, who is capable of spamming far more of them and at the same time, with homing properties should he choose. And, once again, Cosmos and Second Cosmos can give him some much needed space, as well as aid in racking up damage. In particular with the speed advantage. They both scale to being massively superior to massively hypersonic feats. But, must like the AP, the numbers are what matter the most here. Zoro will be hard pressed to keep up with someone who is 3-4x faster, even with observation haki.


Well for starters we don't do chip damage here so accumulating damage over time isn't true. If Zoro can tank attacks from a stronger character than Zahard then nothing Zahard can do is gonna hurt him. It's like saying that Zahard can now do damage to a High 6-A as long as he has the speed advantage. And while Zahard is faster Zoro is more than capable of keeping up. Granted it'll be difficult to an extent since Zahard does have the speed advantage but you need to keep in mind, anything Zoro does is gonna one shot him. Furthermore I actually need to bring up the Sub-Relativistic Luffy / Foxy thing again, if it gets accepted then Zahard will have no speed advantage. Also Kuma's mouth Lazer covers an insane amount of space and Zoro dodged it while heavily injured.


Though, quick question on observation haki, as it doesn't prevent people like Luffy or Sanji who are better at it from getting hit. Katakuri can see a couple seconds into the future with it. So, how far ahead can Zoro see as his is the worst of the group? One second? Two


This part is kinda confusing. But it's suggested that lower levels of Kenbunshoku Haki just gives a promotion of the future, rather than seeing several seconds into as Katakuri can.
 
Can I just state that for the record, holding a sword in your teeth is..a really dumb idea, and not indicative at all of one's skill at swordplay, but rather indicative of their neck strength?

What are you going to do with it? Parry with it? Enjoy a mouth full of broken teeth, or a broken neck as your opponent uses the leverage on your neck the mouth-sword gives them to twist your neck too far in one direction.

That said...Zoro FRA.
 
Korudo Daio said:
No opinion here, but can I just state that for the record, holding a sword in your teeth is..a really dumb idea, and not indicative at all of one's skill at swordplay, but rather indicative of their neck strength?

What are you going to do with it? Parry with it? Enjoy a mouth full of broken teeth, or a broken neck as your opponent uses the leverage on your neck the mouth-sword gives them to twist your neck too far in one direction.
Click to expand...


Oh yeah in real life that's just ********. I'd assume you'd probably cut yourself in the process but remember Anime logic
 
@Knight

If Zahard over several attacks can hurt Zoro even if he delayed, for example: Madara vs Hashirama, Madara had Multi-Continent level Durability and even so, Hashirama who is a Country level managed to destroy Madara PS paricially, this example of that Zahard can not hurt Zoro throughout the fight is incorrect.
 
We don't do chip damage here? Is this just a wiki thing?

Secondly, if what you're saying is that Zahard can do literally no damage to Zoro whatsoever, then how is Zahard supposed to have any chance at winning? He's not particularly haxy, the shinsu black hole sphere which has been shown to one shot enemies superior to them won't work simply because the numbers game doesn't pan out that way. So, I ask you, if Zahard isn't a character with much hax, and he can't hurt Zoro at all, how does he have any chance at winning? The way you're making it out to be, saying that there's no chip damage, makes it seem like a stomp as there is literally nothing Zahard can do to actually hurt Zoro.

Second, having lasers that take up a great deal of space =/= having numerous projectile attacking you from various angles. The former is a single attack, while the later is not, and is far more spammable than the first as multiple can be fired at the same time. Which, iirc, Kuma cannot do. Only fire them in succession. Once again, Zahard's ranged attacks are superior to Kuma's in this aspect, and Zahard can create more of them. I don't see how a full body laser, is harder to evade than ten bangs spawned in the immediate space around you that attack from various angles, and have potential to home in on you. And ten isn't the maximum he's shown.

A premonition? So like, kinda like a feeling of what's going to happen, but nothing concrete or 100% accurate?
 
Enryu The Red Tower said:
@Knight

If Zahard over several attacks can hurt Zoro even if he delayed, for example: Madara vs Hashirama, Madara had Multi-Continent level Durability and even so, Hashirama who is a Country level managed to destroy Madara PS paricially, this example of that Zahard can not hurt Zoro throughout the fight is incorrect.
Click to expand...


Pretty sure we don't scale Hashi to Madara for that sole reason. Otherwise his AP would be High 6-A.
 
@Leon


Wiki thing.


Well yeah I mean I've been kinda saying that Zoro stomps here. I said in the beginning that Zahard can't do much to Zoro, I'd honestly suggest using someone like Pica or Vergo instead. As that would be more fair since they don't one shot people on their level.


Essentially yes, it's accurate most of the time but there's always a possibility that it won't happen. Zoro would just need to act correctly to make use of it but Zoro post time skip doesn't toy around so that counters itself.
 
@Knight

Actually I'm saying that even though Zoro has a higher durability than Zahard, he can still hurt himself with Zahard's attacks even if partially, I used the example of the durability of Madara and the Hashirama AP, for even Madara with High 6-A Durability, Hashirama with AP of 6-B managed to destroy the Susano'o of Madara even if partially, Of course Hashirama's AP is not High 6-A, it only managed to partially destroy Madara's PS, Even Hashirama being a 6-B and Madara with Durability High 6-A.
 
@Korudo

Thank you.

@Knight

I understand what you're saying now. It's the one shot that's the issue here. I see. Thank you, I got it now.
 
@Knight

Same here. Debating is fun. I was thinking of pitting some One Piece characters against some of the characters from Psyre since many of them are Low 6-B.
 
I think the "being casual" argument is invalid for both sides as it becomes impossible to quantify the characters, and 1.6 times stronger isn't enough to nullify all damage(you are still able to damage a person that is 60% stronger than you, it's just hard), just means that he will take less damage from zahard it's not like zoro is on a whole other tier, the black hole sphere should ignore durability to a certain extend considering how a much weaker version of baam was able to clash with a high ranker(wich is 6-B), so it either ignores durability or baam has 6-B AP while being massively inferior to zahard.

@Knight other than a false statement that zoro one shots and the casual argument you haven't demonstrated how zoro can win this

As for the casual argument, zoro one shoted a 13 gigaton character using haki and a named technique while being casual. Zahard brushed off a 8 Gigaton attack whitout even moving, it took baam's horned form to make him draw his sword and only after baam ignited the thorn that zahard used the third form of lecalicus and was able to tank the clash of powers while sustaining less wounds than Baam. See, you can't quantify things like that.
 
Of course he can hurt him. You're simply ignoring the fact that, if it does indeed come to a slug fest, Zoro is going to win because of that 60% difference.

Zoro still had not used Asura, nor his more potent attacks to finish Pica off. IDK why Asura isn't being considered here since it does drastically increase Zoro's offensive abilities, and physical capabilities due to having 4 more limbs and 2 more heads (6 more swords, of course, and a wider range of attacks vectors and coverage). It also increases his AP, as he went ahead and either crippled or one-shot characters that previously overpowered his Base attacks (Kaku and PX-4). And again, Haki also increases Zoro's AP and Durability quite considerably. Not to mention he has the ability to focus and increase the effectiveness of his slicing power, being able to slice through more dense material with attacks such as Shi-Shi Son Song and Gorilla attacks.

The point is, Zoro isn't restricted to being merely "60%" stronger... that's just without any enhancements, period.

There's a lot of factors for Zoro's simple AP and Dura being increased that are seemingly ignored here. Just because he never displayed MOST of these things against Pica doesn't mean he'd put them to the side for this fight. Pica was a joke for Zoro throughout the entire fight, and the only issue that Zoro ran into was Pica's power keeping Zoro from landing a decisive blow on him, as he kept hiding within the Flower Hill. Even so, Zoro never used his real power. All he did was send Pica's real body off of the island, preventing his escape.
 
And not to mention, Zoro's Ichidai Sanzen Daizen Sekkai was the attacked used to slash the statue and send it upwards. The attack used to cut down Pica in one blow was just his standard Sanzen Sekkai, which is logically inferior in power to his previous attack.
 
You do realized that Zoro outright says, "as long as your haki is stronger then mine" right? so yes actually he was amplifing his strength when he took out Pica. Hell he even coated his sword in haki before taking out the satute. and it's still coated when he took out Pica.
 
People on zoro's side seem to be ignoring the fact that zahard was arguably even more casual then zoro, and zahard too has power ups mainly in the form of lecalicus. But i already adressed this casual argument for both sides.

@Cin, i was talking about knight's argument that zoro would take no damage from zahard because of a slight Dura advantage. And asura is restricted for the fight

I'd give this to zahard Mid/High-difficult due to versatility and speed advantage that would be able to compensate for the AP difference.

On the topic of observation haki, zoro's profile says that he needs lots of concentration to use it.

On a Side note: Why zoro has High 7-A likely 6-C on his profile? Doesn't make sense
 
@JBennett - Again, you ignored me...

Yes, he used Haki when Pica was also using Haki. Haki is just ONE of Zoro's several stat amps.

Haki does NOT apply to ANY of the profile's AP and Dura with the SOLE exception of Gear 4th Luffy.

If your argument is that "Zoro was being serious", that's hardly true. He utilized Haki to cut down Pica. He was no where near his full power as we know him.

@Gabriel - it makes perfect sense why it is listed like that. Pica's feat implies that he pulled out the entire PE with that feat, and the calculation ignores the movement of the Smile factory, the re-arrangement of the Flower Hill and King's Plateau, and the sinking of the King's Plateau. On an absolute low end, it would be High 7-A (1.26GT base-line), on a high end, it would be in the middle of 6-C (25+GT). Their stats only consider the PE of creating the Flower hill (13GT) and nothing else.
 
@Cin- thanks, i thought that the profile was putting him at High 7-A for no reason

Zoro can use Haki to boost himself but so does zahard with shinsoo
 
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