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Two incredibly skilled swordsman fight each other

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Debunk time because the reasonings for Zahard here is really bothering me.


1:Zoro scales to one shotting someone who is about 13 gigatons.

Zahard scales to one shotting someone who is about 8 gigatons.

I'd say that the AP and dura difference is relatively negligible. And I'd argue that Zahard's feat was far more casual than Zoro's, as Zoro used what used to be his ultimate attack, while Zahard basically just unsheathed and maybe swung his sword, which was completely unnecessary on his part. Not to mention that he tanked said 6-C attack with zero damage, whereas Pica was capable of harming Zoro.


This is objectively false, Zoro was able to tank everything Pica could throw at him, said attacks were extremely casual 13 Gigatons attacks, aka something higher than Zahard has ever show cased. So no, the AP and durability advantage definitely goes to Zoro with no questions asked. And that's not even taking Zoro's Busushoku Haki and Ausra into account. Reminder, Zoro was able to literally one shot Pica who's casually stronger than Zahard. Numbers even back this up, just because Zahard one shot a 8 Gigaton character doesn't mean he's above 13 Gigatons. It just puts him above 8 Gigatons by an uncertain amount, meanwhile Zoro can causal toy and one shot people who are 13 Gigatons and can even amp his own AP and durability by a considerable amount via top tier Busushoku Haki and Ausra. He'd already be able to one shot Zahard with a normal attack but Ausra would just be an overkill. Furthermore, Zoro has never used his ultimate attack. This is pure headcanon and downplay. For all of the post time skip Zoro has been holding back the entire time. He wasn't going all out against Pica, far from it. The only reason why he had trouble with Pica was because of his sheer size and the fact that Pica could hide and move inside his stone body. Right after that Zoro one shots Pica despite him being covered in Busushoku Haki causally


I also think that Zoro having the skill or versatility advantage is strictly false. Zoro has limited precognition, statistics amplification, some ranged attacks, and limited illusion making with Asura. Whereas Zahard has statistics amplifaction as well, danmaku, flight, shockwave generation, etc. Literally his shinsoo alone can do what Zoro does and more (defense, statistics amplification, various types of long ranged attacks, massive AoE), with the only exception being Zoro's limited precognition, which is strictly worse than Luffy's or Sanji's, and doesn't prevent him from being able to be hit. It's closer to extrasensory perception, which Zahard does indeed have.


This is also false to an extent. Zoro actually has more than just the things you listed. He has fire manipulation, and resistance to the elements via Busushoku Haki. And while his Kenbunshoku Haki isn't on the level of Luffy's or Sanji's it's still an advantage. Zoro does have Precog, and all the other abilities that Kenbunshoku has to offer. He just can't see into the future that they can. He still does have Precog, enhanced senses, emotion sensing, and a near 360 degree view of the battle field. Also Danmaku isn't an issue for Zoro, he was able to dodge Kuma's air canon from an extremely close range without Kenbunshoku Haki. And Shockwaves aren't an issue whenever Zoro can replicate something similar via Tatsumaki and ranged attacks. There's nothing that Zahard can do that Zoro can find a way around.


I'm also confused on why Zoro would have such a significant skill advantage when Zahard has demonstrated the ability to fight toe to toe with Baam, who has mastered dozens of martial arts styles. Not to mention that he's been fighting for hundreds of years, far longer than Zoro has even been alive. Their skills are at least equal.


This is a Golden Mean Fallacy if I've ever seen one. Firstly Zoro isn't Bam. Zoro is a swordman, not a brawler and he's been extremely skilled ever since the beginning of One Piece.is objectively a better swordsman than Zahard is via shown feats and that fact that's he's been trained by the strongest Swordsman One Piece has to offer As seen with Hachi here here and here


Thirdly, Zoro having fought people who can fly doesn't erase the fact that it's an advantage Zahard has. Zoro will still be at an inherent disadvantage as his primary means of attacking, that being in close quarters, is inherently just not as relevant, making his skills as a swordsman less relevant as well.


Firstly I never said that wasn't an advantage. I just said that Zoro has dealt with flying opponents before so it won't be too much of an issue for him. And Zoro himself can jump crazy high and used long ranged attacks that draw the opponent in. He can also negate long ranged attacks via Asura


Lastly, Zoro has not faced ranged attacks like the ones Zahard has. Able to make dozens upon dozens of bangs that can attack from various angles at the same time, making it literally impossible to block the entire body at once without some kind of forcefield. Shinsoo black hole spheres with the potential to cause massive damage, as well as provide counter to all of Zoro's ranged options. And Cosmos with its massive AoE, as well as Lecalicus, should ultimately just prove too much for Zoro, who hasn't faced a combatant with such strong long range skills on top of overwhelming physical characteristics. And one who can do this while flying. Not to mention that Zahard can manifest the bangs behind, above, and to the sides of Zoro, making his attacks more unpredictable. Observation haki helps, but in Zoro's case, it's use is still rather limited, and it far from makes him invincible. He'd have immense difficulty even reaching Zahard in the first place. As his ranged attacks simply don't compare to his.


'Lastly his attacks don't matter. Zoro can tank attacks from 13 Gigatons characters without issues. Zahard here is gonna be throwing attacks above 8 Gigatons which he can more than tank. Furthermore as I explained above ranged attacks don't matter much, as Zoro can simply counter them via Tatsumaki to redirect them or simply negate them with Asura like he did with Kaku. Also Zoro has extremely agility and aided with Kenbunshoku I doubt he wouldn't be able to get out of the way in time. Again while he's as good with Kenbunshoku Haki like Sanji is, it should still be near that level since he was taught Kenbunshoku my Mihawk. And as a side note Zoro has an insane superhuman pain tolerance and stamina advantage over Zahard. He can simply outlast Zahard despite the fact that he can tank anything Zahard can throw at him.


TL;DR The votes for Zahard shouldn't even count. The only advantage here Zahard has is speed and even then it's moot due to Zoro being able to straight up tank and one shot him. Furthermore some of the votes are misguided and false for the false reasons that Zahard has the AP advantage when he doesn't.
 
I agree with Knight FRA.

The "votes" for Zahard are based on false statements. Also, a 13 to 8 difference is not "negligable"... that's more than a 1.6x multiplier. If you fought someone physically 1.6 times stronger than you, you'd be overwhelmed assuming skill and experience are exactly the same.

Also, Zoro scales from a character who's attacks barely even scratched him.

The only reason Zoro never could defeat Pica EXTREMELY early on is: once Pica realized the difference in skill, strength, and ability, he hid in the statue and the entire Flower Hill itself. Zoro had no way to efficiently catch Pica without resorting to an attack that would send the stone AWAY from the ground, preventing Pica from escaping again.

Not to mention Zoro never used Asura, which absolutely multiplies his power.

Pica applied a 13GT feat quite casually with his power, yet this same power couldn't even scratch Zoro despite Zoro being caught mid-air, forced to block a punch from the statue. The end result was the statue being bisected and Zoro being perfectly fine, albeit a small scratch on his forehead.

The 13GT doesn't factor in Zoro's Stat amp, nor his Asura. In fact, he's normally >13GT via scaling since Pica couldn't do anything to him in a physical contest, and was ultimately outclassed in power from the start.

Zoro takes it >_>
 
CinCameron20 said:
A: "This character (my favorite) wins!"

B: "Actually, here's why he loses"

A: "OMG! STOMP THREAD! CLOSE IT!"
Click to expand...
>Checks Thread

>I clearly voted Zoro

Get back on vacation and clear up your head
 
Ohhhhh Feisty, I like!

I shall reward you by remaking All Might vs Vergo after the downgrades
 
@Knight and Cin

Well, do you know Shinwonryu? It is a technique that Zahard uses to nullify his opponent's attacks, this technique can Absorption other people's energy attacks thousands of times stronger than the Shinwonryu user, such as Twenty-Fifth Baam dissipating a Shinsoo attack from Karaka. That is if Zoro uses any attack without being based on physical blows, Shinwonryu will be able to solve all problems, since if Zoro uses Tatsumaki, Zahard can use Shinwonryu to simply dissipated these attacks.


I just mentioned it, because I think it's important to talk a little about one of Zahard's main techniques.
 
hence why this isn't a stomp, as Zahard has methods to counter Zoro's attacks. However, keep in mind a lot of Zoro's ranged attacks are shockwaves, and not energy based.
 
The thing is that no one is saying that Zahard has the AP advantage, I may have but I admitied that I was wrong. Plus Zoro did not use a casual attack when he one shotted Pica it was his most powerful move that he has shown, as of now of course but the point still stands. plus he did use Haki so to say that he did that normally is false. If you need proof then here .

I'm pretty sure Zoro's countermesures towards flying opponents are attacking with his own long range attacks or use 'some method' to get close, the later can lead him to a disavantage becuase Zahard can just simply fly to him faster then Zoro can reach him, sure it's not a major problem due to Zoro's AP and Dura but it's still something that will become a problem in the long run.

Has Zoro ever lost an arm and still been able to fight relitevly normally? Because Zahard did and he was still very capable of fighting.

I don't think this is an easy fight for Zahard, but I do think the diference in AP is enough that Zahard can defeat Zoro in a long battle, which Zahard will be able to due to his veriaty in abilites and he is smart enough to understand the strength of his opponents, he won't underestimate Zoro beyond the first couple of exchanges, and I honestly doubt Zoro will go all out at the begining.
 
JBennett, Zoro used haki on Pica's haki infused body. Both were amped. And for the attacks on the statue, it doesn't matter. The attacks cut clean through the statue at every slice, so i don't see your point. The initial attack was to get Pica off of the island, away from any stone, preventing his escape.

Zoro never had any issue slicing the statue apart without Haki. he did so up until that chapter with no issue. He simply needed to defeat Pica immediately due to the threat against Riku and Usopp.

Also, wow... i feel stupid. Zoro's range should be kilometers if a single slash can travel to the top of Pica's statue body from the waist.

Zoro won't go all out at the beginning, sure, but anyone with Kenbunshoku haki gets the ability to sense how powerful their opponent is, so they would respond accordingly. Pica was drastically inferior to Zoro, so the first half of the fight simply showed Zoro using nitoryu, smiling, and swatting all attacks to the side.

Zoro has taken attacks that have impaled him completely, and has shrugged them off. So has Sanji, who doesn't have that level of stamina in the first place. Zoro never lost an arm, but for that to stop him, it would be doubtful with what he has previously stood up from pre time-skip.
 
@Cin

Zoro's shockwaves will also be dispelled by Zahard's Shinwonryu, since Shinsoo and Air are practically the same (taking Shinsoo as something more liquid), and Zoro's shockwaves will be annulled by the Shinwonryu, since shockwaves is based on Air.
 
If It's a haki infused attack then it's not casual, it may not be his most pwerful attack or technique but it still a powerful attack, considering that Haki does boost physical strength and cutting power, if he didn't use Haki when he took out Pica then yes it is casual but he didn't so it not.

Zahard was outright indifference when his arm was destroyed, Zoro never shown anything to that degree. sure he was still able to fight but it did still effect him.
 
Pica was clad in haki, Zoro one shot him with his own haki.

And Zoro may have gotten serious, of course, but he was certainly not going all out. He still had a few reserved abilities that were his strongest.

And you're assuming Zahard has the ability to straight up take off Zoro's arm if they fought.
 
I was just simply countering the point on Zoro having more Pain tolerance then Zahard, The most I see for this is Zahard stapping Zoro after he in the back or someplace similar after he gets a good hit on Zahard becaus he will let his guard down regardless if he knew Zahard was alive or not, since Zoro isn't really interested in fighting againts weakened opponents, allowing Zahard to deal at least a critical wound.

kenbu won't help all that much because he has only shown to be able to sense pressence not predict the future. which won't help regardless because of Zahard speedadvantage. And before you complain yes it has been shown many time before in One Piece that stronger character can get damage if they let their guard down, Whitebeard getting stabbed duering the War is an example, not a good example sure but one none the less.

Grantted this is the less likly situation I see the, in but it's still something I can see regardless.
 
Now I remembered about the Stamina of the characters of Tower of God, Baam-level characters like Zahard or others, can fight and train for 1 month, that is Zahard is comparable to Baam who can fight for 1 month, so I think Stamina's advantage goes for Zahard.
 
Actually Zoro was willing to cut off his own legs whenever he was trapped in Wax. Also may I see scans of this 1 month thing? Also training for 1 month and fighting for one month are two very different things. Furthermore I don't think we actually scale stamina like that. It's like me scaling Sanji to Zoro's stamina just because they're comparable. In this case I think stamina would just be an advantage Baam has over Zahard. Also the Whitebeard example is blatant PIS that and he was old and sick. So you can't add that weakness onto other One Piece characters. Furthermore Zoro can predict the future as seen with Hody. Also Zoro doesn't hold back in fights, if he knows an opponent is strong he won't hesitate to land a killing blow. ( I.E Monet, Pica etc. ) also applying Haki doesn't mean it's not casual. Especially since the main reason Zoro even needed it was not to chip his swords, and Zoro tends to use Busushoku Haki very early on in fights.
 
Actually that's not true. Zaraki has his own Stamina and pain tolerance feats. He's the biggest tank in Bleach after all.
 
Zoro doesn't have experience advantage, zahard has hundreds of years of combat experience. when he climbed the tower there was no rankers or fodder regular, only wild beasts and the guardians of each floor (Zahard's techniques should be a good measure to how strong said beasts are). 13 Gigatons to 8 Gigatons isn't that much of a difference for a one shot especially considering the speed advantage.

Statistics amplification is unquantifiable for both

Versatility is certainly in favor of zahard, zoro can attack with swords, air blades and precognition wich he stated that isn't that good. Zoro jumping in the air wouldn't make him any good, zahard could just move out of the way and he would be helpless.

"Zoro trained with the best swordsman in the world", Zahard is superior to the best swordsman in his universe, this argument doesn't mean much.

Also, Zoro being casual doesn't mean much, unless there's a calc with bigger numbers when he is serious.
 
1: Nobody said Zoro has the experience advantage. Perhaps you should read the arguments better. And yes Zoro can indeed one shot. Zoro is capable of one shotting a 13 Gigaton character with ease. Meaning he'd be able to one shot Zahard, numbers are in my argument.


2: Asura is a 3 times amp. I don't know why it was removed.


3: Zoro never stated his Kenbunshoku Haki wasn't that good. That's headcanon. And jumping would work wonders her, especially with his long ranged attacks. You seem to be downplaying here.


4: Downplay again. I could just easily turn your argument around and say that Mihawk is the best swordsmans in his universe. And he was trained by Mihawk for a solid two years. Also refer to my scans from before.


5: It means a lot actually. Being extremely casual means no effort was done. Again this is downplay.
 
Sorry for the delay, and to begin with, in this chapter it is said that Baam trained for several weeks without stopping:

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-229/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=310

And in this chapter it is said that he had two more months of non-stop training with the God of Guardians:

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-231/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=312

And to prove the point that Baam, yes, he was training for two months and several weeks and without stopping, he was wearing the same clothes that he started the training and when he finished, and all the persongens that stay with him say they do not see Baam for a long time, and the Wiki itself states that Baam trained for a long month with the GoG:

https://towerofgod.wikia.com/wiki/Twenty-Fifth_Baam/History


And I'd forgotten to restrict Asura ... but now I'll restrict to make this match fairer.
 
I still don't see how that would scale to Zahard. Doesn't mean that his Stamina would be the same unless it's confirmed. It's the reason why we don't give Sanji the pain tolerance Zoro has. Because it's looked at by '''shown feats'''
 
Strange, we already have several cases of people climbing Stamina to superior people, as I have seen people climbing the Stamina of Jinbei and Ace to Luffy, or the characters of Bleach as the resistance of the Gotei 13 escalate to be superior to the stamina of their subordinates who can fight with a member of the lost body part and Shanks stamina scale for One Piece Top-Tiers who can fight for almost 2 weeks without him showing his own resistance...
 
@Knight

But speaking of this subject as to which of these two verses has the best swordsman ... Well, it is said in the work that the Arie Family (who are the spitters of Tower of God or Arie Hon, are said to have a style said to be able to do something with swords, and the author of Tower of God: SIU himself said that the Arie Swordsmanship has no weaknesses, ie Zahard is superior in ability to Arie Hon and Family Arie who is said by the author himself to have a style without weaknesses and quotes in the work itself that they can do anything with swords... and technically Zahard should have superior skill in swords compared to Zoro (although Zahard does not use a sword, but rather a needle ...)
 
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