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This is primarily a response to this thread, which was locked so I could not add to it
https://vsbattles.com/threads/transformers-multiversal-revision.111174/
The reason I'm making this is because Transformers was argued down to tier 2A based on an inability to prove it had multiple multiverses, however this is an issue of a lack of information. There are quotes and comic panels not cited in this thread that make it clear the TF Multiverse is much larger than it appears, and while I am new to VSB's tiering system, should justify a higher placement for characters like Primus and Unicron.
Size of the Multiverse
It is argued at several points in the linked thread that the Transformers multiverse is not infinite (though this was eventually agreed upon), and that universal streams are not more than one multiverse. However this is untrue, and has been the case since the original Marvel comics transformers run. Our earliest example of separate multiverses comes from Unicron's own mouth, at a time when the cartoon and comics were completely severed from each other.
Timelines are full-fledged universes in transformers with their own stream designations, so the Marvel continuity alone was already a multiverse in the 80s. We see this play out again on-panel in the IDW comics, when Perceptor states "an infinity of universes" were born from his tampering with the paradox locks.
There is no reason to think Perceptor is incorrect in his assessment, Transformers already understood the fundamentals of time travel in the IDW continuity, the paradoxes were what they couldn't prevent. Finally, Ask Vector Prime explicitly states this applies to all universes that aren't "deterministic". Given that there are infinite universes, and we've only seen one deterministic universe in all of TF fiction, the number of them likely doesn't matter.
Vector Prime's quotes are as follows.
Note the bold. Each universe has an infinity of modalities they can exist in. Now initially, these sound like mere possibilities, not real universes, but Vector Prime makes it abundantly clear right after that each of these modalities can be catalogued as their own Universal stream, only that he doesn't feel the need to do so, but Rhinox would. He states again that Universes are branch points for further universes to spawn from.
The TFCC Comics also reiterate Marvel's idea that each action creates a new universe.
With this in mind we have a clear picture of how the multiverse works: each universe, of which there are an infinite amount, spawns infinite new universes of its own, and those continue the chain indefinitely. This is vastly above a Multiversal+ designation
Now, one point of contention from the linked thread related to how reliable of a narrator Vector Prime was because he once claimed the multiverse was finite. This ignores that he, and other sources, refer to it as infinite and boundless far more often. Across the board, Transformers portrays its multiverse as infinite, so I would chalk the finite statement, which is only a single statement, as an inconsistency of the writer more than anything else.
Vector Prime's finite statement
VS his other statements on the size of the multiverse
He has more statements of the multiverse being without limit, and these correlate to other characters and narrators that corroborate the claim, many of which are already cited on the wiki.
A minor side note, it was also argued that Unicron getting the Star Saber scaling was debatable, but I do not find this to be the case because
The Star Saber already failed to kill Unicron. Even the Star Saber/Terminus Blade combo did not kill Unicron, though it has weakened him considerably. There is no reason not to scale Unicron and Primus to it.
Additionally, there is even evidence that Unicron and Primus can affect Transformers' omniverse, whose size is unknown (beyond containing infinities past the multiverse's own). This was argued to be "less than multiverse level to affect the multiverse" but that is untrue due to several statements we have.
First we need to keep in mind this panel
Remember the words "Stable Axis of Reality", as they appear elsewhere
The Vok support this as well, calling Unicron's agents a virus on the omniverse.
This covers the true size of the multiverse, but another thing that has been ignored in the linked and other threads are Transformers' higher dimensions.
Higher Dimensions
We know from Vector Prime that the transformers cosmos is governed by 17 dimensions.
Vector Prime is a higher dimensional being himself, so he should have first hand experience.
The issue is that there was no evidence these dimensions were qualitatively superior to each other. However the Alternity stories reveal that they are.
We have direct reference here that the Planicrons 2D dimension was lower and limited compared to the 3D world, but more importantly we have a reference and confirmation of Brane Cosmology being used in Transformers here, as the Planicrons evolution turned them into a braneworld. The Branes have been sufficient justification for other fictions so I don't see why Transformers would be some unique exception, especially when the franchise has an entire concept devoted to nonlinear beings outside of time and space.
Hopefully all this made sense. Again, I'm new and not terribly familiar with your tiering system yet, but based on what I've presented 2A definitely seems too low for Transformers.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/transformers-multiversal-revision.111174/
The reason I'm making this is because Transformers was argued down to tier 2A based on an inability to prove it had multiple multiverses, however this is an issue of a lack of information. There are quotes and comic panels not cited in this thread that make it clear the TF Multiverse is much larger than it appears, and while I am new to VSB's tiering system, should justify a higher placement for characters like Primus and Unicron.
Size of the Multiverse
It is argued at several points in the linked thread that the Transformers multiverse is not infinite (though this was eventually agreed upon), and that universal streams are not more than one multiverse. However this is untrue, and has been the case since the original Marvel comics transformers run. Our earliest example of separate multiverses comes from Unicron's own mouth, at a time when the cartoon and comics were completely severed from each other.
Timelines are full-fledged universes in transformers with their own stream designations, so the Marvel continuity alone was already a multiverse in the 80s. We see this play out again on-panel in the IDW comics, when Perceptor states "an infinity of universes" were born from his tampering with the paradox locks.
There is no reason to think Perceptor is incorrect in his assessment, Transformers already understood the fundamentals of time travel in the IDW continuity, the paradoxes were what they couldn't prevent. Finally, Ask Vector Prime explicitly states this applies to all universes that aren't "deterministic". Given that there are infinite universes, and we've only seen one deterministic universe in all of TF fiction, the number of them likely doesn't matter.
Vector Prime's quotes are as follows.
Note the bold. Each universe has an infinity of modalities they can exist in. Now initially, these sound like mere possibilities, not real universes, but Vector Prime makes it abundantly clear right after that each of these modalities can be catalogued as their own Universal stream, only that he doesn't feel the need to do so, but Rhinox would. He states again that Universes are branch points for further universes to spawn from.
The TFCC Comics also reiterate Marvel's idea that each action creates a new universe.
With this in mind we have a clear picture of how the multiverse works: each universe, of which there are an infinite amount, spawns infinite new universes of its own, and those continue the chain indefinitely. This is vastly above a Multiversal+ designation
Now, one point of contention from the linked thread related to how reliable of a narrator Vector Prime was because he once claimed the multiverse was finite. This ignores that he, and other sources, refer to it as infinite and boundless far more often. Across the board, Transformers portrays its multiverse as infinite, so I would chalk the finite statement, which is only a single statement, as an inconsistency of the writer more than anything else.
Vector Prime's finite statement
VS his other statements on the size of the multiverse
He has more statements of the multiverse being without limit, and these correlate to other characters and narrators that corroborate the claim, many of which are already cited on the wiki.
A minor side note, it was also argued that Unicron getting the Star Saber scaling was debatable, but I do not find this to be the case because
The Star Saber already failed to kill Unicron. Even the Star Saber/Terminus Blade combo did not kill Unicron, though it has weakened him considerably. There is no reason not to scale Unicron and Primus to it.
Additionally, there is even evidence that Unicron and Primus can affect Transformers' omniverse, whose size is unknown (beyond containing infinities past the multiverse's own). This was argued to be "less than multiverse level to affect the multiverse" but that is untrue due to several statements we have.
First we need to keep in mind this panel
The death of a universe's Primus is so detrimental to the multiverse that it causes numerous universes to fuse together in order to fix it, and can pull in realities outside the transformers' multiverse.
Cybertron is referred to as the stable axis the entire universe spins upon. It's disingenuous to say that this is merely some kind of planetary feat. Primus is omnipresent, and his reach seems to extend beyond the multiverse.
Once again referred to as the stable axis of reality, the same terminology Ramjet used. This is far too consistent to be a coincidence.
The Vok support this as well, calling Unicron's agents a virus on the omniverse.
This covers the true size of the multiverse, but another thing that has been ignored in the linked and other threads are Transformers' higher dimensions.
Higher Dimensions
We know from Vector Prime that the transformers cosmos is governed by 17 dimensions.
ROTF alludes to their being more than 17, but Vector Prime is far more reliable than an Allspark possessed Sam, so I am going with the lower number.
Vector Prime is a higher dimensional being himself, so he should have first hand experience.
The issue is that there was no evidence these dimensions were qualitatively superior to each other. However the Alternity stories reveal that they are.
We have direct reference here that the Planicrons 2D dimension was lower and limited compared to the 3D world, but more importantly we have a reference and confirmation of Brane Cosmology being used in Transformers here, as the Planicrons evolution turned them into a braneworld. The Branes have been sufficient justification for other fictions so I don't see why Transformers would be some unique exception, especially when the franchise has an entire concept devoted to nonlinear beings outside of time and space.
Hopefully all this made sense. Again, I'm new and not terribly familiar with your tiering system yet, but based on what I've presented 2A definitely seems too low for Transformers.
