Transformers Multiversal Revision

[Emirp sumitpo]

Currently, the justification for Unicron, Primus and Vector Prime's strongest avatar being 2-A is that the True Star Saber is able to destroy an entire universe stream, which is composed of an infinite amount of realities. The justification states:

Unicron: Stronger avatars are much stronger than versions of The Fallen who scale to a version of Prima with the Star Saber, which could destroy one multiverse

Vector Prime: Should be somewhat comparable to Prima, who with the Star Saber could erase an infinite multiverse

This is untrue however, as the statement that supposedly backs it up here.

Not just to one universe, but the entire multiversal stack would collapse in on itself. Existence would simply cease to exist.

This statement seems to imply that True Star Saber could very much destroy the entirety of the multiverse, and as we know, the Transformers multiverse is comprised of an uncountable amount of infinite realities and universal streams, which themselves are composed of infinite universes. Thus, this should make the True Star Saber Low 1-C

Conclusions:

Unicron's new justification: Varies from Planet level (Consistently shown to be as big, if not bigger, than planets like Earth) to Low Complex Multiverse level (Some of his strongest avatars have devoured their Multiverse/Cluster, which are consistently shown to have infinite universes. Stronger avatars are much stronger than his strongest heralds, such as Ramjet or versions of The Fallen. The thirteen have never truly succeeded in defeating him, and Unicron should be superior to the power of the True Star Saber which could destroy the entire multiverse, which is composed of an uncountable amount of realities and universal streams, which themselves are composed of infinite universes) | At least Low Complex Multiverse level (Should be vastly superior to his strongest avatars. Has been stated to be capable of devouring the multiverse numerous times, and has even done it in the past)

True Star Saber's new Justification: Low Complex Multiverse level (Was stated to be able to destroy the entire Transformers Multiverse, which is composed of an uncountable amount of realities and universal streams, which themselves are composed of infinite universes. When combined with the Terminus Blade, it was able to strengthen the barriers between universes, rendering interdimensional travel nigh-impossible, and nullifying multiversal singularities)

For the Vector Prime however, I'm unsure whether the thirteen truly scale to the True Star Saber, as The Fallen wanting to steal it for himself and the fact the thirteen had to split it apart because they saw it as too strong implies the True Star Saber to be stronger than the Thirteen. Even Nexus Prime, who is considered on of the most powerful members of the Thirteen, considers it too be unbelievably powerful. However, considering Vector Prime has to fight Unicron on a daily basis (As that's his job), his strongest avatars should probably also be Low 1-C

Vector Prime's new justification: Varies. From Planet level for his weakest avatars (Although significantly lesser in power, the Thirteen were tasked with holding back weaker versions of Unicron, who are usually planetary in size and power) to Low Complex Multiverse level (Despite being much weaker, he should be able to fight against Unicron's strongest avatars, and are able to handle threats such as the Hytherion, and fight against many constant threats that threaten the multiverse) | At least Low Complex Multiverse level (Inhabits a similar level of existence to the likes of True Unicron. Should be superior to any avatar. Although far inferior, the Thirteen were originally designed by Primus to aid him in battle against Unicron, who can consume all of the uncountably infinite multiverse)

The One should be At least Low 1-C via upscaling from Unicron and Primus, of course

Agree: Amelia_Lonelyheart, Crabwhale, LordTracer, Starbrand_Fan, Shadyboi0

Neutral: Antvasima

Against: Primestar3

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Seems odd that we word Star Sabers justification like that; when me and Ever were planning on revising the verse in like, 2016, we knew the context of the statement. Anyway, seems fine.

 

[Crabwhale]

Yeah this seems alright.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with this.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

I also agree with this

 

[Thelastmlg]

So i'm confuses, those realities and universal streams sound like 2-A multiverses, and we pretty much stopped using multiple infinite multiverses as AP for anything.

Is that only for a finite number? Infinite 2-A multiverses imply higher dimensionality?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not really, it's talking about an uncountable infinite amount of universes, which is already Low 1-C.

Uncountable infinity is Low 1-C.

Basically, the transformers multi verse is composed of an uncountable infinite amount of universe streams, which are 2-A multiverses

 

[Antvasima]

This may be fine, but I am not certain if uncountable x infinity = uncountable infinity.

@Ugarik @DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to offer input regarding this?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

According to the previous thread about multiversal transformers, one of the staff stated that uncountable infinity is Low 1-C

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not too knowledgeable on Transformers, but more staff input would be appreciated yes.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
Technically, the "uncountable realities" thing is about the Omniverse as a whole, not the TF Multiverse. It follows the Marvel definition of the Omniverse. Unicron and Primus etc don't affect the Omniverse.

Also, when was it said that Unicron devoured entire cluster? IIRC, it was said in TransTech that Unicron devoured a considerable amount of the Multiverse (not cluster), but even if the TF Multiverse is infinite, TransTech haven't discovered all of the Multiverse at all (they have discovered a finite number). They discovered around 15 million realities last time it was stated AFAIK.

So, Unicron devoured a finite number of universes from what I know (and what TransTech knows), not infinite.

Also, if universes have inconsistent time between each other, can we know the timeframe of Unicron devouring the Multiverse?

 

[Primestar3]

Also, it's kinda ironic that Vector Prime says Omniverse has unquantifiable realities, then proceeds to give a quantifiable number in the quadrillions lmao.

 

[Primestar3]

TF Multiverse having infinite universes is kinda iffy anyway tbh from what I know.

 

[Primestar3]

If we are being honest, Vector Prime said the TF Multiverse had million of realities.

Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook - Transformers Wiki

tfwiki.net

Vector Prime:
"That is an excellent question. Outside of the Multiverse that you and I know is the Omniverse, comprised of other Multiverses. Though there are millions of realities within the Cybertronian Multiverse, there are uncountable realities, numbering in the tens of quadrillion."

The top number as far as we know was revealed in the Drsmwave Armada comic, where Autobots scanned at least 75,890,007 realities (it is probably higher than that tho).

Viron cluster doesn't seem to be infinite either:
" Q: Dear Vector Prime

Aside from Beta Maxx and Caliburn, what other Micromasters exist in the Viron cluster?
.
.
A: Dear Micromaster Maestro,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are millions upon millions of Viron streams. Any Micromaster, Cyberdroid, or Mini-Con that you've ever heard of probably has some kind of Micromaster analog somewhere in one of the many, many Viron streams."

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It seems like Primestar makes good points. What do the rest of you think? Should we close this thread?

 

[Crabwhale]

TF Multiverse having infinite universes is kinda iffy anyway tbh from what I know.

No? Universal clusters have been pretty consistently claimed to have infinite universes, even with some of them being "bigger" or "smaller".

And it's not like this feat is inconsistent, upon second reviewing. Nexus Prime was able to affect the entirety of the multiverse with the power of the Star Saber and the Terminus Blade, permanently strengthening dimensional boundaries and making manifestations of multiversal singularities no longer a thing.

 

[Primestar3]

No? Universal clusters have been pretty consistently claimed to have infinite universes, even with some of them being "bigger" or "smaller".

And it's not like this feat is inconsistent, upon second reviewing. Nexus Prime was able to affect the entirety of the multiverse with the power of the Star Saber and the Terminus Blade, permanently strengthening dimensional boundaries and making manifestations of multiversal singularities no longer a thing.

Where was it consisntelty said to be infinite? Multiverse lore is mostly created by FunPub, and I have provised tons of evidence that TF Multiverse is stated to not even be 1 billion.

Vector Prime clearly says the multiverse has only millions of universes, let alone clusters

And were Unicron and Primus ever said to be above the Terminus blade and the Star Saber? They were affected by them heavily, so they may not even scale to their multiversal power.

And again, where are these consistent infinite Multiverse statements even then?

What's worse, Vector Prime said that there might be universes that will never be affected by Shroud (this is how they explained further dimensional travel stories in the future) , so it may not even have affected the whole Multiverse (Besides the Shroud thing the Star Saber was ststed to be able to drstroy the entire Multiverse, so that's fine I guess).

If you can show me consistent proof then that's fine.

 

[Primestar3]

@Crabwhale
Again, what Vector Prime refers to as uncountifiable is the Omniverse (seperate from the "Cybertronian Multiverse"), and even then, in the same sentence, he says that Omniverse has tens of quadrillions of universes, a very much finite number. So, the unquantifiable statement from him isn't even legit then.

 

[Crabwhale]

That's...not a universal stream though.

 

[Primestar3]

That's...not a universal stream though.

What are you talking about.

 

[Primestar3]

That's...not a universal stream though.

Universal strems are not universal clusters.

Universal streams tend to be used to mean universes, and sometimes a set of events that are sometimes shared between multiple universes (according to the writer), but mostly it's used to mean universes. He gave the 86 movie happening in both the comics and cartoons as an example.

Universal clusters are groups of universal streams. Vector Prime himself gave a very much finite number for Viron for a size example.

All of this is contained within the TF Multiverse, which he stated contained not even a billion universes.

 

[Crabwhale]

First of all you're ignoring this image which outright states the existence of infinite alternate universes, based on differing choices.

Secondly, while excuse my use of incorrect terminology, it's very clear that the TransTechs and Vector Prime are not giving a definite number for the number of universes out there in each cluster, or the greater multiverse as a whole. These are DISCOVERED universes, not the totality of existence. Taking this as meaning this is all there is blatantly ignoring context.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Vector prime mention the quadrillions thing is meant for it to look impressive. Also, it's not like vector prime has traveled to literally every universe, as his night omniscience comes from him travelling to many universes. Vector prime also theorized that Unicron has eaten more universes than he is aware of. Unicron has only eaten 22 percent of known universes, that doesn't imply the multi verse isn't infinite

 

[Primestar3]

First of all you're ignoring this image which outright states the existence of infinite alternate universes, based on differing choices.

Secondly, while excuse my use of incorrect terminology, it's very clear that the TransTechs and Vector Prime are not giving a definite number for the number of universes out there in each cluster, or the greater multiverse as a whole. These are DISCOVERED universes, not the totality of existence. Taking this as meaning this is all there is blatantly ignoring context.

Considering the idea of Unicron devouring the entire Multiverse comes from TransTech and Vector Prime, why would you take their word to mean that Unicron devours infinite universes when they don't even know the exact number of Multiverse?

Absolutely nothing in any of their quotes suggest that they think the TF multiverse is possibly infinite.

And you said consistent quotes, one quote is hardly consistent (which clearly had nothing to do with the established Forest Lee/FunPub multiverse lore). There are stories that imply that the IDW Star Trek, Zombies vs Robots, TMNT are part of the Transformers multiverse (IDW Infestation story arc), even though AVP would tell you that they are in the greater megaverse/omniverse. There are condradictions between multiverse lores in different parts of the brand.

 

[Crabwhale]

Considering the idea of Unicron devouring the entire Multiverse comes from TransTech and Vector Prime, why would you take their word to mean that Unicron devours infinite universes when they don't even know the exact number of Multiverse? And if we go by FunPub, splinter timelines/choice based universes are rare.

Unexplored =/= unaware. Just because every single universe of every single universal cluster has not been mapped doesn't disprove the existence of an infinite amount of them. Unless you can find a quote that specifically says something along the lines of "this is the number of universes, WITHOUT exception", excluding the infinite theory just because of the existence of a concrete number is not very valid.

Tl;dr just because those are all they know for certain, doesn't mean that's all there is. And this is supported by the greater Transformers multiverse. We've gotten plenty of what if stories that prove choices matter in the creation of new universes. Therefore logically, infinite choices, infinite possibilities, infinite universes.

 

[Primestar3]

Vector prime mention the quadrillions thing is meant for it to look impressive. Also, it's not like vector prime has traveled to literally every universe, as his night omniscience comes from him travelling to many universes. Vector prime also theorized that Unicron has eaten more universes than he is aware of. Unicron has only eaten 22 percent of known universes, that doesn't imply the multi verse isn't infinite

If Vector Prime can use hyperbole (or umderrate in this case?) the number of universes to make them sound impressive, then how can you trust his word that they are literally uncountable (when he could have used hyperbole)?

And if he doesn't every universe ever, then how can we trust his word that the Omniverse is uncountable?

Also, Unicron and Primus aren't Omniversal. Vector Prime clearly states that the Cybertronian Multiverse is seperate from the Omniverse. Unicron and Promus aren't Omniversal.

The omniverse used in this case is based on the Marvel Multiverse anyway btw.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

They wouldn't know the multi verse is infinite because they're not even aware of the full size of it. But the narrator even claims that the universe is infinite.

Not only that, but ramjet, unucron's arguable strongest Herald, says the multi verse is infinite in size, twice. And it's likely he knows more about the multiverse than vector prime does after getting tortured by the elder gods and becoming woke and stuff

 

[Primestar3]

Unexplored =/= unaware. Just because every single universe of every single universal cluster has not been mapped doesn't disprove the existence of an infinite amount of them. Unless you can find a quote that specifically says something along the lines of "this is the number of universes, WITHOUT exception", excluding the infinite theory just because of the existence of a concrete number is not very valid.

Tl;dr just because those are all they know for certain, doesn't mean that's all there is. And this is supported by the greater Transformers multiverse. We've gotten plenty of what if stories that prove choices matter in the creation of new universes. Therefore logically, infinite choices, infinite possibilities, infinite universes.

It's unfortunate then, that they never stated that the multiverse is infinite. If it is indeed infinite, they are VERY CLEARLY unaware, considering not ONCE have they implied that the multiverse is infinite. If the multiverse is infinite, we can't trust their words to come to the conclusion that Unicron can destroy an infinite multiverse.

Actually, splinter timelines are implied to not occur constantly by Vector Prime.

Vector Prime:
"Branched timelines tend to occur primarily when there are multiple probable outcomes to a given scenario."

TransTech says that the core-thread of the multiverse had just tangented again. Implying it is not a constant process in Withered Hope.

 

[Primestar3]

They wouldn't know the multi verse is infinite because they're not even aware of the full size of it. But the narrator even claims that the universe is infinite.

Not only that, but ramjet, unucron's arguable strongest Herald, says the multi verse is infinite in size, twice. And it's likely he knows more about the multiverse than vector prime does after getting tortured by the elder gods and becoming woke and stuff

Even if Ramjet is right, does he actuag say that Unicron can destroy the entire multiverse on his own? I don't remember such a thing being said by him.

In that story, the singularity had to destroy Cybertron in every single reality by REPLICATING itself in each reality. So, such a feat is AT BEST universal if we say that Cybertron being the axis of a universe means that destroying it is a universal feat. Though if could merely be planetary too. In AVP, it was said that Megazarak destroying Cybertron damaged space time around their stream. I think the bomb Megazarak used was merely planetary, I doubt it would be universal.

So, unless Ramjet said that Unicron can destroy the infinite multiverse on his own, we can't sah Unicron can do such a thing.

Vector Prime and TransTech obviously don't know the size.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
On second thought, he does kinda imply that without his physical body, he can do it in his true form.

Although him destroyimg the previous multiverse doesn't mean anything since we don't know the size of it (and Vector Prime said that the multiverse expands, so we can't just say that it is the same size as the TF multiverse.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
But wait, this still means that none of his avatars can destroy an infinite multiverse. Ramjet even says that Unicron can't destroy infinity without being everywhere at once. Only his true form seemingly can.

And remember that Vector Prime or TransTech never claimed that the multiverse was infinite sized, so we can't really use their statements to conclude that any of his avatars can destroy the infinite multiverse. Especially when Ramjet straight up says that Unicron's physical form can't.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

AOE is not the same as AP. Unicron cannot travel to everywhere ta once. Him being 2-A is on the basis on him being stronger than the True Star Saber as well as being stronger than the Hytherion, plus the fact he is constantly mentioned as the greatest threat to the multiverse. At the absolute very least, that would make his avatars Low 2-C to 2-A.

I could see a Likely 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C from this. But the multiverse being 2-B when there are statements that prove the multiverse is infinite is a no.

I wanna wait for input from others to see what their arguments would be.

 

[Primestar3]

Vector Prime doesn't scale to true form Unicron AFAIK, so that should go too.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

He does tho? He is much weaker, yes, but he is designed to fight agaisnt him to some extent. Him not scaling at all would defeat the entire purpose of his character.

I think there also statements about the True Unicron being beyond the multiverse and stuff, but I'm gonna have to search for that.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
If his avatar is infinite multiversal in power, shouldn't he still be able to reach those other realities and destroy them? AOE/AP argument shouldn't apply when it comes to statements of what a character can destroy at max.

Where is it stated that the True Star Saber is below Unicron? As I said, Unicron can't oneshot the multiverse, so he shouldn't be above it.

When was it stated that Hytherion can destroy the whole multiverse? AFAIK, it's more like he feeds on damaged realities. It's not trying to destroy the multiverse.

Again, the physical Unicron is said to be the ultimate threat to the multiverse by people that never even enterained the notion that the multiverse is infinite once. It's really just that simple.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
And you are simultaneously arguing that Unicron's AOE is only universal and yet also using statements of the avatar being a danger to the entire multiverse. That is condradictory.

 

[Primestar3]

@Emirp sumitpo
Also, one more thing, Unicron or Primus being above the Star Saber is kinda suspect when the combination of Star Saber and the Terminus Blade essentially splintered/overpowered them.

So, we can't say Unicron or Primus are necesaarily above their own artifacts, especially when we haven't had such a statement (AFAIK).

 

[LordTracer]

Isn’t the Star Saber the artifact of Prima, not Primus...

And at least based on what I can find on TFWiki, the Terminus Blade isn’t Unicron’s artifact either, it was created by Solus Prime as a weapon for the Thirteen.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Where is it stated that the True Star Saber is below Unicron? As I said, Unicron can't oneshot the multiverse, so he shouldn't be above it.

When was it stated that Hytherion can destroy the whole multiverse? AFAIK, it's more like he feeds on damaged realities. It's not trying to destroy the multiverse.

Like I said above, if the thirteen could manufacture weapons that are stronger than Unicron or Primus, they wouldn't even be a danger in the first place, and Unicron would've been easily defeated.

I never stated that, the Hytherion can destroy the entire Multiverse, they're only a danger to an entire universe stream, which contains infinite universes according to their profile, when as a collective. Inidividually, they're Low 2-C via eating damaged timelines, They're 2-A as a collective. Unicron should be above the Hytherion as he is repeatedly stated to be the greatest threat to the Multiverse andf the fact Vector Prime can pretty much take care of threats like the Hytherion but Vector Prime is stated to be dwarved by Unicron.

It took the combined might of those 2 weapons to splinter Primus and Unicron, and Nexus Prime had to travel to a specific place to accomplish such a feat, that does not make it Primus and Unicron as both weapons can't do the feat casually.

What is your proposal, may I ask?

Also it'd be helpful if @Amelia_Lonelyheart were to provide some input considering they and the everlasting were the ones to create the profile.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also, why were the 17 dimensions statements discarded? Was it because of a lack of context? I'm not the most familiar with stuff in 1-C and higher, and am only aware of the basics of it.