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Well, Ironhide was still up (kinda) after Starscream’s missile hit him. Meanwhile Blackout’s shot dropped Ironhide despite him trying to shield himself, and Ironhide wasn’t seen after that until Starscream entered the fight.
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Transformers General Discussion
- Thread starter Caleb3429
- Start date
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That is class 25, way lower than class M
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"But OP never overpowered them in strength, he even got grappled and tossed around by Megatron"
Untrue, he even kicks away Megatron like its nothing while greatly overpowering Starscream. Also, in the first film Optimus could barely move Megatron with his guns, compare this to the second movie.
"Ya mean the 20 second fight that after Ratchet tanked the missiles and Ironhide got quite ****** by it Starscream fled?"
Notice how they're both knocked down on the ground while Starscream is totally unharmed. You're greatly exaggerating things, or they're individually inferior to him at least.
"Also, my bad, the feat I was saying was Sideswipe tanking a shot from Sentinel's gun"
I can't find that feat.
Edit: The profile says he did, but Idk what they're basing it on.
Edit 2: It's this scene, but it looks like a glancing blow at best. Bumblebee also does the same here, while Ratchet tanks a sword blow to the chest.
"He is only referencing the ones that don't condradict. S7 and Rising Storm don't condradict anything on their own. The reason why S7 and Rising Storm references retconned material is because those weren't retconned back then. On their own, mere references to retconned material shouldn't make, say, Rising Storm non-canon just because of those references considering that RS is directly referenced in the BB Prequel timeline, the Movie Prequel or Ghosts of Yesterday aren't, thus the latter two are retconned. New information superceedes old. Do you get where I am coming from?"
They contain references to material that contradicts the BB prequel, hence they are inherently contradictory. Being retconned does not change that given that event A still existed in that timeline to create event B, and event B existed to create event C.
"Blackout is unmoved by an omnidirectional pulse blast fired in front of his feet. The same pulse blast can send tanks flying and destroy cargo planes. What strength level is required for this? Since it is an omnidirectional blast, I imagine some of the force is lessened than a blast fired in one direction (cargo plane destroying blasts and presumably the ones that sends tanks flying)."
Definitely Class K or M.
"Bumblebee yanks a boat."
I can't find the exact boat, but the ship is only a few dozen metres long. It's worth noting that even the heaviest ship on the planet doesn't reach 700,000 tonnes, so it's not above their normal ratings.
Untrue, he even kicks away Megatron like its nothing while greatly overpowering Starscream. Also, in the first film Optimus could barely move Megatron with his guns, compare this to the second movie.
"Ya mean the 20 second fight that after Ratchet tanked the missiles and Ironhide got quite ****** by it Starscream fled?"
Notice how they're both knocked down on the ground while Starscream is totally unharmed. You're greatly exaggerating things, or they're individually inferior to him at least.
"Also, my bad, the feat I was saying was Sideswipe tanking a shot from Sentinel's gun"
I can't find that feat.
Edit: The profile says he did, but Idk what they're basing it on.
Edit 2: It's this scene, but it looks like a glancing blow at best. Bumblebee also does the same here, while Ratchet tanks a sword blow to the chest.
"He is only referencing the ones that don't condradict. S7 and Rising Storm don't condradict anything on their own. The reason why S7 and Rising Storm references retconned material is because those weren't retconned back then. On their own, mere references to retconned material shouldn't make, say, Rising Storm non-canon just because of those references considering that RS is directly referenced in the BB Prequel timeline, the Movie Prequel or Ghosts of Yesterday aren't, thus the latter two are retconned. New information superceedes old. Do you get where I am coming from?"
They contain references to material that contradicts the BB prequel, hence they are inherently contradictory. Being retconned does not change that given that event A still existed in that timeline to create event B, and event B existed to create event C.
"Blackout is unmoved by an omnidirectional pulse blast fired in front of his feet. The same pulse blast can send tanks flying and destroy cargo planes. What strength level is required for this? Since it is an omnidirectional blast, I imagine some of the force is lessened than a blast fired in one direction (cargo plane destroying blasts and presumably the ones that sends tanks flying)."
Definitely Class K or M.
"Bumblebee yanks a boat."
I can't find the exact boat, but the ship is only a few dozen metres long. It's worth noting that even the heaviest ship on the planet doesn't reach 700,000 tonnes, so it's not above their normal ratings.
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It hits Sideswipe in the shoulder, but Bee doesn’t get hit at all.
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Fair enough for OP overpowering them I guess.
But for their fight, in the beggining Ratchet is shot by his Machine gun but it doesn't seem to affect to Ratchet
Ratchet later hits Starscream (which was the only damage he took) and it seems to affect him (Its quite hard to see cause of the angle and shake cam, but hey, it is a Tranformer movie)
Ratchet was than hit by Starscream's missile, but still kept the supressing fire, and it jus made him roll back a little, (it may just be me, but both him and Ironhide just seem to roll back like that in the first movie, especially Ironhide for some reason)
It just doesn't seem that Starscream is that much superior if he fled after being hit once
Ye, Ratchet was hit by the sword, but I don't know, he doesn't appear in the second part of the battle, and it isn't that much of a outlier if Ratchet is said to be able to give Megatron a good fight before being overpowered
It doesn't really seem that it was a glancing blow, Sideswipe took the shot clean, and Bee was never hit
But for their fight, in the beggining Ratchet is shot by his Machine gun but it doesn't seem to affect to Ratchet
Ratchet later hits Starscream (which was the only damage he took) and it seems to affect him (Its quite hard to see cause of the angle and shake cam, but hey, it is a Tranformer movie)
Ratchet was than hit by Starscream's missile, but still kept the supressing fire, and it jus made him roll back a little, (it may just be me, but both him and Ironhide just seem to roll back like that in the first movie, especially Ironhide for some reason)
It just doesn't seem that Starscream is that much superior if he fled after being hit once
Ye, Ratchet was hit by the sword, but I don't know, he doesn't appear in the second part of the battle, and it isn't that much of a outlier if Ratchet is said to be able to give Megatron a good fight before being overpowered
It doesn't really seem that it was a glancing blow, Sideswipe took the shot clean, and Bee was never hit
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@ByAsura
"They contain references to material that contradicts the BB prequel, hence they are inherently contradictory. Being retconned does not change that given that event A still existed in that timeline to create event B, and event B existed to create event C."
That implies that the referenced versions of the discarded stories have to happen the exact same way as the discarded version when they are referenced in a different miniseries. That would just mean altered version of those events happened (altered to an unknown extent) due to retcons.
Just because a character that was originally introduced in a discarded story was used in S7 or Rising Storm doesn't mean S7 and RS has to be non-canon. That would just mean two timelines have the same characters with somewhat altered histories due to retcons.
Sector 7 mini attempting to explain AllSpark having two different excavation dates from a discarded story doesn't mean anything on its own either. The original idea was that the two stories were connected, now it's different. This is what I have been trying to say. Since those stories are now retconned, the references don't mean anything.
If BB Movie Prequel didn't exist, I would agree with your logic, but the BB comic implies that some of the stories are still canon to its timeline.
"They contain references to material that contradicts the BB prequel, hence they are inherently contradictory. Being retconned does not change that given that event A still existed in that timeline to create event B, and event B existed to create event C."
That implies that the referenced versions of the discarded stories have to happen the exact same way as the discarded version when they are referenced in a different miniseries. That would just mean altered version of those events happened (altered to an unknown extent) due to retcons.
Just because a character that was originally introduced in a discarded story was used in S7 or Rising Storm doesn't mean S7 and RS has to be non-canon. That would just mean two timelines have the same characters with somewhat altered histories due to retcons.
Sector 7 mini attempting to explain AllSpark having two different excavation dates from a discarded story doesn't mean anything on its own either. The original idea was that the two stories were connected, now it's different. This is what I have been trying to say. Since those stories are now retconned, the references don't mean anything.
If BB Movie Prequel didn't exist, I would agree with your logic, but the BB comic implies that some of the stories are still canon to its timeline.
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It affects Starscream for half a second. I think Ratchet doesn't show immediate signs of distress because he's on the ground.
They don't roll back, the two collapse after Starscream passes over. IronHide even has an injury in his chest.
I wouldn't say Starscream is as strong as I was making him out to be, but the two were definitely outclassed.
Ratchet comes back after the sword blow, but where he goes after the cut to Megatron is unknown. I'm not saying it's an outlier, I'm just saying it doesn't make Sideswipe that powerful.
He took it in the door/wing section, so it seems like a glancing blow. I thought it was a movie mistake where SP shot Bee, but the explosion happened first.
Edit: The explosion was from the rocket firing.
"That implies that the referenced versions of the discarded stories have to happen the exact same way as the discarded version when they are referenced in a different miniseries. That would just mean altered version of those events happened (altered to an unknown extent). Just because a character that was originally introduced in a discarded story was used in S7 or Rising Storm doesn't mean S7 and RS has to be non-canon. That would just mean two timelines have the same characters with somewhat altered histories due to retcons. Sector 7 mini attempting to explain AllSpark having two different excavation dates from a discarded story doesn't mean anything on its own either. The original idea was that the two stories were connected, now it's different. This is what I have been trying to say. If BB Movie Prequel didn't exist, I would agree with your logic, but the BB comic implies that some of the stories are still canon to its timeline."
And the cannon that connects also connects with the movie prequel and contradictory media regardless of what you claim or the stuff they've apparently discarded. You're the one making up this new timeline. Anyway, it doesn't matter since you've agreed they should be kept separate.
They don't roll back, the two collapse after Starscream passes over. IronHide even has an injury in his chest.
I wouldn't say Starscream is as strong as I was making him out to be, but the two were definitely outclassed.
Ratchet comes back after the sword blow, but where he goes after the cut to Megatron is unknown. I'm not saying it's an outlier, I'm just saying it doesn't make Sideswipe that powerful.
He took it in the door/wing section, so it seems like a glancing blow. I thought it was a movie mistake where SP shot Bee, but the explosion happened first.
Edit: The explosion was from the rocket firing.
"That implies that the referenced versions of the discarded stories have to happen the exact same way as the discarded version when they are referenced in a different miniseries. That would just mean altered version of those events happened (altered to an unknown extent). Just because a character that was originally introduced in a discarded story was used in S7 or Rising Storm doesn't mean S7 and RS has to be non-canon. That would just mean two timelines have the same characters with somewhat altered histories due to retcons. Sector 7 mini attempting to explain AllSpark having two different excavation dates from a discarded story doesn't mean anything on its own either. The original idea was that the two stories were connected, now it's different. This is what I have been trying to say. If BB Movie Prequel didn't exist, I would agree with your logic, but the BB comic implies that some of the stories are still canon to its timeline."
And the cannon that connects also connects with the movie prequel and contradictory media regardless of what you claim or the stuff they've apparently discarded. You're the one making up this new timeline. Anyway, it doesn't matter since you've agreed they should be kept separate.
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Which of the feats in the blog should be calced or are worthy of being calced?
The top feats to me atm is blackout obliterating cargo planes, lockdown destroying part of a building, lockdown blowing up a house and driller destroying the ground and the skyscraper
The top feats to me atm is blackout obliterating cargo planes, lockdown destroying part of a building, lockdown blowing up a house and driller destroying the ground and the skyscraper
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@ByAsura
New information superceedes old information. In the revised timeline, BB Movie Prequel connects to RS and S7. But since the 2007 Movie Prequel are condradicted (by the BB Movie Prequel no-less), it is retconned away. Those references to condradicted books in S7 and RS became meaningless.
Again, why else did the writer include those references then if the connections are made up? Why else did he make certain characters grandsons of characters from S7 etc.?
New information superceedes old information. In the revised timeline, BB Movie Prequel connects to RS and S7. But since the 2007 Movie Prequel are condradicted (by the BB Movie Prequel no-less), it is retconned away. Those references to condradicted books in S7 and RS became meaningless.
Again, why else did the writer include those references then if the connections are made up? Why else did he make certain characters grandsons of characters from S7 etc.?
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I mean, could it be that Starscream's missile are > his Machine Gun, but again, Ratchet did enough damage to knock back Starscream a little, not enough to disrupt his balance, but I don't think it should be overlooked
It was a sidenote, should have noted that, I just found it funny how Ironhide was barrel rolling earlier in the clip like there was no tomorrow lol
Here is the thing, Ironhide definetly was no match for him, but Ratchet could somewhat tank his Missiles and Machine Gun
Yeah, he came, but I was saying that he didn't came to face Sentinel in the second part, only Sideswipe and Bee were there
I don't know how a shot could be a glancing blow since he took the shot in the shoulder, not in the wing/thing
It was a sidenote, should have noted that, I just found it funny how Ironhide was barrel rolling earlier in the clip like there was no tomorrow lol
Here is the thing, Ironhide definetly was no match for him, but Ratchet could somewhat tank his Missiles and Machine Gun
Yeah, he came, but I was saying that he didn't came to face Sentinel in the second part, only Sideswipe and Bee were there
I don't know how a shot could be a glancing blow since he took the shot in the shoulder, not in the wing/thing
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Because at the time of production of the comic, bumblebee was still a prequel to the bayverse. The comic was an attempt to bridge tlk and bbb but since bbb is now a reboot, on half of the bridge is gone, rendering the comic as it's own thing. And not only that, even if it were still canon, the nuke thing would be an outlier and the nuke was the only impressive feat in the entire comic
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@Primestar The movie prequel wasn't retconned, though, it still connects to these stories and they even attempt to connect with it.
I said your new timeline is made up, not the connections and references that actually contradict what you say if you look beyond the surface level.
Anyway, I'm done with this point, as I said before.
@Emirp Here's feats that need to be calced, IMO. I believe the Lockdown feat would just amount to Building level.
- Blackout destroys 3 Boeing C-17 Globemaster III with a single shockwave
- The Decepticon's landing tears apart Skyscrapers and aircraft carriers
- Megatron rips a submarine in two
- Demolishor crashes into a bridge
@Drite I would say his missiles are superior to the machine gun.
Ratchet is somewhat comparable, but not equal.
You can see the wing is directly behind the explosion. So it was in that section.
I said your new timeline is made up, not the connections and references that actually contradict what you say if you look beyond the surface level.
Anyway, I'm done with this point, as I said before.
@Emirp Here's feats that need to be calced, IMO. I believe the Lockdown feat would just amount to Building level.
- Blackout destroys 3 Boeing C-17 Globemaster III with a single shockwave
- The Decepticon's landing tears apart Skyscrapers and aircraft carriers
- Megatron rips a submarine in two
- Demolishor crashes into a bridge
@Drite I would say his missiles are superior to the machine gun.
Ratchet is somewhat comparable, but not equal.
You can see the wing is directly behind the explosion. So it was in that section.
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The others look fine, but the hill looks only to be 9-A to 8-C.
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Neat
Ye, but I think that then it comes to how they combat, I feel like Ratchet may be a better fighter out of the 2 since he actually fights instead of fleeing, but that is debatable I guess
I am rewatching it frame by frame and it looks like he still got hit in the shoulder, but even than, would a hit in the wing make he flew that distance?
but anyway, the point was that both Ratchet and Ironhide was enough to make Starscream flee the combat. Starscream already fled when it was him vs those 2 when Blackout was still in the battlefield, so he would likely flee against 7 autobots, Ratchet is confirmed to be a tough fight against Megatron, I think that even if you want to disqualify Sideswipe tanking the Sentinel shot, Megatron would be too outnumbered to fight someone who can give him a good fight + 6 other autobots giving supressing fire
Ye, but I think that then it comes to how they combat, I feel like Ratchet may be a better fighter out of the 2 since he actually fights instead of fleeing, but that is debatable I guess
I am rewatching it frame by frame and it looks like he still got hit in the shoulder, but even than, would a hit in the wing make he flew that distance?
but anyway, the point was that both Ratchet and Ironhide was enough to make Starscream flee the combat. Starscream already fled when it was him vs those 2 when Blackout was still in the battlefield, so he would likely flee against 7 autobots, Ratchet is confirmed to be a tough fight against Megatron, I think that even if you want to disqualify Sideswipe tanking the Sentinel shot, Megatron would be too outnumbered to fight someone who can give him a good fight + 6 other autobots giving supressing fire
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Wait, where was it stated the ratchet was tough fight against Megatron?
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@Emirp sumitpo
Yeah, but it doesn't condradict the TLK timeline is my point, so it would likely be secondary canon.
@ByAsura
I think that the minis can stand on their own is my point. They aren't dependent on other stories besides vague references, and since the BB movie prequel references those minis (that doesn't condradict the TLK timeline on their own), I think it is safe to say they share a continuity.
But okay if you are done. It ultimately doesn't change anything as you said as I agreed to with a new key.
Yeah, but it doesn't condradict the TLK timeline is my point, so it would likely be secondary canon.
@ByAsura
I think that the minis can stand on their own is my point. They aren't dependent on other stories besides vague references, and since the BB movie prequel references those minis (that doesn't condradict the TLK timeline on their own), I think it is safe to say they share a continuity.
But okay if you are done. It ultimately doesn't change anything as you said as I agreed to with a new key.
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We decided to ditch the movie quides did we not? If we are, then I guess we could use the weights, but still iffy on that
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Canon or not, the nuke is still an outlier if we were to connect it.
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Not with RS connection, but whatever. As I said before, I agree with a new key anyway.
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Rising storm contradicts the film as it's stated itself to be prequel, but here's the thing, the dotm game was also marketed and promoted as a prequel, and lots of things in that game didn't happen in the comics. Shockwave was only awaken until the end of the game, while in the comic, shockwave had been awake prior. And several other elements. Rising storm just is not part of the film continuity anymore
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DOTM game actually condradicts the film tho:
But as I said, I am only saying that these would go into secondary canon keys. All I am arguing is that they aren't necessarily non-canon, just secondary canon.
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What is your definition of secondary canon? I can't tell if you're argue the idw comics are in the same universe as the films
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Canon until condradicted. The way I see it, BB prequel connects to RS and S7, so at least all three are canon until condradicted.
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Pretty sure it was confirmed that the Bumblebee movie is a reboot, so it doesn’t connect to Bayverse at all.
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It's stated that now rising storm is in a seperate universe then the films. Not only that, but Tunguska and the nuke are still outliers because it doesn't line up with the feats that are consistent in the movie. The bbb prequel comic is just irrelevant, rising storm is now not a part of the movie canon. I hate to say it, but you're reaching at this point by saying that bbb doesn't contradict tlk or rising storm therefore both are connected when it's confirmed that rising storm is no longer connected to the movies. BBB is virtually non canon to either by mentioning both.
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I am rewatching it frame by frame and it looks like he still got hit in the shoulder, but even than, would a hit in the wing make he flew that distance?
To me, it looks like he moved into an angle and got hit. I guess we can agree to disagree.
but anyway, the point was that both Ratchet and Ironhide was enough to make Starscream flee the combat. Starscream already fled when it was him vs those 2 when Blackout was still in the battlefield, so he would likely flee against 7 autobots, Ratchet is confirmed to be a tough fight against Megatron, I think that even if you want to disqualify Sideswipe tanking the Sentinel shot, Megatron would be too outnumbered to fight someone who can give him a good fight + 6 other autobots giving supressing fire
And I'm saying Starscream didn't really flee. He just left, which makes sense given how terrified they were of him. Megatron himself effortlessly took on the entire Autobot force on Earth in the first film, so he and Starscream should have easily overpowered them, even while weakened.
To me, it looks like he moved into an angle and got hit. I guess we can agree to disagree.
but anyway, the point was that both Ratchet and Ironhide was enough to make Starscream flee the combat. Starscream already fled when it was him vs those 2 when Blackout was still in the battlefield, so he would likely flee against 7 autobots, Ratchet is confirmed to be a tough fight against Megatron, I think that even if you want to disqualify Sideswipe tanking the Sentinel shot, Megatron would be too outnumbered to fight someone who can give him a good fight + 6 other autobots giving supressing fire
And I'm saying Starscream didn't really flee. He just left, which makes sense given how terrified they were of him. Megatron himself effortlessly took on the entire Autobot force on Earth in the first film, so he and Starscream should have easily overpowered them, even while weakened.
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I've already posted a quote from Jim Sorenson that said that he didn't give a straight answer on the comics' canonicity and that streams aren't necessarily universes.
Secondly, even if the streams = universes, that stream encompasses the original IDW Bayverse timeline. BB Movie Prequel is clearly altered from that, and the BB Movie Prequel doesn't have a stream designation of its own. So, it's entirely possible that BBB Prequel and RS are canon with the stream argument.
I can admit that sometimes I might be reaching or have bias, but I have already addresses most of your points before, but you didn't adress them, or otherwise misread them.
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I know the Jim Sorenson thing, he said that streams sometimes split. That's the thing with rising storm and the movies, they split. They were once canon to each other, and now they're not. Similar to how this mini idw sunstreaker comic split from the main comic. I said this before
The bbb prequel comic is simply it's won continuity.
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No, he said that the comics weren't necessarily canon to the movies.
What he meant is that the Bayverse stream is canon to the comics, but not necessarily the other way around. He left it open ended.
He also mentioned how the 86 movie was canon to both the cartoon and the comics, he means that the streams are events.
@ByAsura
Jim Sorenson says it isn't 100% tho.
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The fact is, Ironhide and Ratchet were practically defeated while Starscream took way less damage and still had most of his weaponry. There's probably another reason.
Anyway, I think I'm finished with this too, because it doesn't really matter that much.
Anyway, I think I'm finished with this too, because it doesn't really matter that much.
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That's the thing, unless it's 100 percent canon to the movies, which they're not, they should be considered seperate. There's too much conflicting evidence to say they're all in one continuity.
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