- 25,018
- 27,012
It still never ended up in the film tho. It's like saying prowl should have the same feats as barricade because he was intended to appear
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Transformers General Discussion
- Thread starter Caleb3429
- Start date
- 741
- 18
I've said this before, like 5 times lol, but BB Movie prequel was written to fit the TLK timeline, not the BB movie. BB movie changed its story before release.
BB movie condradicts it.
Bayverse doesn't, becausebits meant to fit the TLK timeline.
- 22,383
- 18,589
Given how little the movies regard the tie-in comics, they should be treated as separate and given new keys. Also, there are still huge timeline contradictions between the films and comic books, in addition to characters that seemingly don't exist.
Doesn't Bumblebee explicitly show up on Earth for the first time in the 2007 film? They have to absorb language through the internet, IIRC.
@Emirp Here's the sources for Aligned.
Doesn't Bumblebee explicitly show up on Earth for the first time in the 2007 film? They have to absorb language through the internet, IIRC.
@Emirp Here's the sources for Aligned.
- 25,018
- 27,012
Still, my point stands, it ended becoming a seperate continuity, the recent new confirms that bumblebee is indeed a soft reboot. Whether it was previously intended or whether they similarities.
The idw comics have been classified by ask vector prime as seperate from the movies
The idw comics have been classified by ask vector prime as seperate from the movies
- 741
- 18
Like what? BB movie prequel comic doesn't include all the comics as canon, but the ones that don't condradict the TLK timeline.
Comics are secondary canon. Seperate keys can be made, but IMO, they aren't necessarily a different continuity.
- 25,018
- 27,012
I've already suggested before and in the blog? Did nobody read that?
They should be seperate keys, like star Wars, yes
- 22,383
- 18,589
You missed the edit. Bumblebee very explicitly doesn't show up on Earth until 2003 in the IDW and Titan comics, as well as the novels, yet the prequel is based in the Cold War and he arrived in WWII. There's your contradiction.
Honestly, the movies can't even keep up with their own timeline, let alone the comics.
Edit: Wait, Bumblebee was on Earth in WWII according to TLK, so that actually makes even more contradictions between the earlier comics and films.
Honestly, the movies can't even keep up with their own timeline, let alone the comics.
Edit: Wait, Bumblebee was on Earth in WWII according to TLK, so that actually makes even more contradictions between the earlier comics and films.
- 741
- 18
It is a seperate continuity from the Bumblebee movie. BB Movie Prequel is a Bayverse (not Knightverse) comic that is meant to fit the TLK timeline. It just narrates what BB was doing in the 60s.
AVP is written by Jim Sorenson. This is his opinion on whether streams = universes:
https://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/116666-rook-andromeda-on-facebook/page-263#entry3186251
"I have never written universal streams as
having a 1:1 relationship with universes. Look at The Transformers: The Movie... it's in-continuity with both the Marvel series (or at least a prominent possible future of it) and the cartoon, and seems to be in the past of the Beast Wars as well. From the very beginning of the brand, it's been possible for a work to belong to more than one universe, ergo it follows that the system to track such things would also be able to function thusly. So the live action movies are canon for the comics but the comics aren't (necessarily) canon for the movies. The US Marvel comic is (mostly) canon for the UK Marvel comic, but the UK Marvel comic is (mostly) not canon for the US Marvel comics. Streams merge and then split."
So, clearly, AVP doesn't necessarily say that the comics are non-canon.
- 25,018
- 27,012
He straight up say they're in a different universe. We're they once canon? Yes. But now they're not because they've been contradicted now, meaning the stream split, and they're now non canon.
It's implied bumblebee lost his voice before he got to earth
- 741
- 18
I've already stated that the 2007 Movie Prequel is non-canon.
My point is that not all of the IDW movieverse is non-canon. Some are retconned out, but not all.
Read this miniseries' issues' wiki articles, there are tons of references to the old moviverse books.
- 741
- 18
He doesn't straight up say that at all tho. He literally says that the live-action movies are canon to the comics, but not NECESSARILY the other way around. That means he doesn't give a straight answer. All that means is that the movie comics are a different stream, but nothing says their events didn't happen in the movieverse. Also, AVP and FunPub tries not to change the main canons too much.
Bumblebee talking on Earth was there even when the BB Movie was meant to be a Bayverse prequel (before reshootings were done). That is why Bumblebee talks in the prequel mini, and there is enough wiggle room in Optimus's TLK statement, "I have not heard your voice since Cybertron fell", (Optimus only come to Earth in 2007, so he wouldn't have had a chance to hear BB's after Cybertron fell and on Earth in the 40s, 60s) to say that it doesn't condradict the comic.
Last edited:
- 741
- 18
I didn't say the movie is non-canon. I said the 2007 Movie Prequel is non-canon.
I've already told you that the some of the comic continuity has been retconned away, but a good portion of it is still intact according to BB Movie prequel comic.
What condradictions are you talking about exactly?
- 25,018
- 27,012
Ok, what exactly are you trying to argue here, I don't really see what your point is or what exactly you're getting at. What are proposals and suggestions for the profiles and we should treat everything? Pls summarise your points
Last edited:
- 741
- 18
What I mean to say is that the BB Movie Prequel is not condradicted by the timeline established by TLK. And it references the miniseries like Sector 7 and Rising Storm. For example:
Energon Is Forever - Transformers Wiki
So, it is secondary canon to the Bayverse that is not condradicted.
In Rising Storm, Shockwave survived Tunguska. Also, the Tunguska plot point didn't come from the writer of the comic itself, but rather from a production bio:
Tunguska event - Transformers Wiki
So, likely Hasbro/Paramount came up with it.
Evidence of the fact that John Barber didn't come up with it can be seen in DOTM game, which featured a frozen Shockwave in a Russian bunker, which likely implies that the comic and the game writers used the same production bio.
- 741
- 18
I mean that a second key can be made for the Bayverse profile featuring secondary canon information.
- 25,018
- 27,012
I thought we all agreed with that ages ago? What I'm saying we should purely use feats for the movies that are from the movies instead of relying on contradictory extra source materials that contradict the movies and one another. I was never against secondary keys and I even mentioned we should have it way earlier.
- 741
- 18
Ok (though I don't think the BB movie prequel and some of the comics are condradictory). I do think it should be keys instead of seperate profiles, as secondary canon is still information and stories approved by Hasbro and is meant to fit the Bayverse (the books and comics go through full Hasbro approval).
- 741
- 18
"Q: Can you tell me about the aligned continuity? Are Transformers Prime and War for Cybertron in the same universe? There seem to be differences.
A: That's a bit of an animal to define. You are correct in observing differences betwixt Uniend 812.21 Kappa and Uniend 911.05 Alpha. However, these differences tend towards the cosmetic. Macroscopic events of the Uniend Cluster have a uniform cosmology and history, removed from much of the rest of the multiverse."
According to this, the two streams have a largely uniform history. So, the feats might be interchangeable.
- 25,018
- 27,012
They have similar events and the war plays out similarly, yes. But there a lot of other things that prevent them from being the same continuity.
- 741
- 18
Maybe there can be secondary keys to them as well. I think they are semi-canon.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,382
- 9,049
So what did I miss?
- 3,958
- 3,104
A lot.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,382
- 9,049
Like?
- 3,958
- 3,104
no longer using weights from vehicles for re-entry, using guide weights and a lot more things.
- 1,508
- 626
So what's the scaling chain for the Bayverse looking like?
- 15,449
- 15,859
No idea for tiers, but the characters (in the first movie) should something be like:
Optimus = Megatron = or >= Blackout >= Starscream > Bumblebee = Barricade >= Brawl > Bonecrusher >=< Ratchet > Ironhide > Jazz
- 15,449
- 15,859
To explain my chain:
Blackout was confident in helping Megatron fight Optimus, so he should be fairly close to their level.
Starscream easily destroyed Bumblebee’s legs with his missiles, and he sent Ironhide flying with a single shot. And in RotF, he could harm Optimus and tank hits from him.
Bumblebee killed Brawl with some effort, Barricade fought evenly with Bee (although most of their fight was offscreen and he did lose), and he could tank attacks from Bee and Grimlock.
Brawl fought Jazz, Ironhide and Ratchet simultaneously, and those three are mostly comparable, although Ratchet could tank attacks that left Ironhide floored, so he should be stronger.
Bonecrusher, I have no idea tbh. He could stagger Optimus with his punches, but a single punch from Optimus mangled his face.
Blackout was confident in helping Megatron fight Optimus, so he should be fairly close to their level.
Starscream easily destroyed Bumblebee’s legs with his missiles, and he sent Ironhide flying with a single shot. And in RotF, he could harm Optimus and tank hits from him.
Bumblebee killed Brawl with some effort, Barricade fought evenly with Bee (although most of their fight was offscreen and he did lose), and he could tank attacks from Bee and Grimlock.
Brawl fought Jazz, Ironhide and Ratchet simultaneously, and those three are mostly comparable, although Ratchet could tank attacks that left Ironhide floored, so he should be stronger.
Bonecrusher, I have no idea tbh. He could stagger Optimus with his punches, but a single punch from Optimus mangled his face.
- 15,449
- 15,859
When was that statement made? He sliced Brawl’s arm off, I don’t think he knocked him out though. And Brawl did no-sell some of Ratchet’s shots iirc.
- 7,839
- 689
It was made in the movie guide, which I guess we are using it? He headshots Brawl and he is knocked out
Fair enough, but Grindor didn't really did much against Optimus, in the extended cut, he tried to cut Optimus with his saw thing, but that is it, though I guess an argument could be made by that
Fair enough, but Grindor didn't really did much against Optimus, in the extended cut, he tried to cut Optimus with his saw thing, but that is it, though I guess an argument could be made by that
- 15,449
- 15,859
Huh, interesting. I guess Ratchet > Brawl. Although idk if he should be above Bee, since he squared up with Optimus and iirc, he could briefly fight Megatron in TLK.
He damaged Prime with his saw, yeah. Although there was another part that where Optimus cuts his arm off, his arm flies into Megatron and hits him hard enough to knock his cannon arm off target.
- 22,383
- 18,589
Yes, which makes a lot of the Titian and IDW line non-canon, as they're base off information in these comics.
Characters who first appeared in the movie prequel show up in the Sector 7 comic, as well as grandfathers of some characters, issue #3 even tries to explain that the AllSpark was found in 1902, but not removed until 1913, so they can fix some of the movie prequel's continuity errors. This would also invalidate novels like Ghosts of Yesterday, which a large amount of names and characters in Bumblebee make reference to. Issue #3 also tries to fix a continuity error in the movie prequel and Ghosts of Yesterday by stating that they were lying about Megatron's move in the film.
There's already tons of differences, and as far as we know the WFC games never became the Prime series. There are macroscopic similarities, as they said, like both continuities being poisoned by Dark Energon. But, Orion Pax attained the Matrix from Primus after an attempt to save Cybertron from being poisoned, leading him to be reformatted as Optimus Prime well into the war. War For Cybertron was already called Optimus and became a Prime when Zeta died, and just takes the Matrix under similar circumstances without being reformatted.
Even if 90% of their history was intact, that could (and does, considering Optimus Prime was still Orion Pax until the end of the war) mean there's feats in the games that don't translate to the characters in Prime.
- 25,018
- 27,012
Here is current plan for the movies. Re-entry feats should be thrown out the window as inconsistent weights and the weird weight scaling thing that ByAsura mentioned. We can't use official weights due to inconsistency. So we should just be using feats, and a lot of current feats look to be in tier 8. So they be getting downgraded.
I plan to add idw profiles as seperate keys to the movies as they have some solid 7-B stuff, and we should also add keys for the DS games, but only for Megatron and starscream. The only characters that seem worthy of idw keys are Optimus, Megatron, shockwave and starscream. I don't plan to add every piece of extended universe media to the profiles as it'll just clutter everything up. Best to add stuff that actually has consistent and noteworthy feats.
Then there's create-a-bot, who I feel the only thing we can scale him to is we assume that the DS counterparts are comparable to their main counterparts.
So it should: Canon | IDW
Or in the case of Megatron and starscream: Canon | IDW | DS game 2007
I've collected and placed all notable feats in here
I plan to add idw profiles as seperate keys to the movies as they have some solid 7-B stuff, and we should also add keys for the DS games, but only for Megatron and starscream. The only characters that seem worthy of idw keys are Optimus, Megatron, shockwave and starscream. I don't plan to add every piece of extended universe media to the profiles as it'll just clutter everything up. Best to add stuff that actually has consistent and noteworthy feats.
Then there's create-a-bot, who I feel the only thing we can scale him to is we assume that the DS counterparts are comparable to their main counterparts.
So it should: Canon | IDW
Or in the case of Megatron and starscream: Canon | IDW | DS game 2007
I've collected and placed all notable feats in here
- 7,839
- 689
I am inclined to be more like this
Optimus = Megatron > Starscream >= Blackout >= Brawl >= Ratchet >= Bonecrusher > Ironhide > Bumblebee >= Barricade >= Jazz
OP and Megs I don't need to explain, but I put Starscream above Blackout via he having feats against other characters
Brawl seems to be a powerhouse since he was focused by 3 out of the 4 autobots that could partake effectively in the battle (Bumblebee was crippleded at the time)
Ratchet may be somewhat equal or not, since the headshot knocked Brawl out, since he is stated to be one of the only bots that could give Megs a fight, I would say he would be second only yo Optimus on the first movie.
Bonecrusher is above the rest cause Optimus decided to eliminate him
Ironhide is > Bumblebee cause he actually tanked Starscream's missiles
Bumblebee may be above Barricade since in the aftermath Bumblebee was not really injured, while Barricade was quite destroyed
Jazz doesn't really have any feats besides shooting Brawl
Optimus = Megatron > Starscream >= Blackout >= Brawl >= Ratchet >= Bonecrusher > Ironhide > Bumblebee >= Barricade >= Jazz
OP and Megs I don't need to explain, but I put Starscream above Blackout via he having feats against other characters
Brawl seems to be a powerhouse since he was focused by 3 out of the 4 autobots that could partake effectively in the battle (Bumblebee was crippleded at the time)
Ratchet may be somewhat equal or not, since the headshot knocked Brawl out, since he is stated to be one of the only bots that could give Megs a fight, I would say he would be second only yo Optimus on the first movie.
Bonecrusher is above the rest cause Optimus decided to eliminate him
Ironhide is > Bumblebee cause he actually tanked Starscream's missiles
Bumblebee may be above Barricade since in the aftermath Bumblebee was not really injured, while Barricade was quite destroyed
Jazz doesn't really have any feats besides shooting Brawl
- 15,449
- 15,859
I don’t really mind Starscream being above Blackout, although I think comparable would make more sense, especially if we scale Blackout to Grindor. He and Starscream did about the same amount of damage to Optimus during the forest battle.
But Bee killed Brawl, and could fight Optimus and Megs in TLK.
Bee should be slightly above, but from the little bit of the fight we saw, Barricade could still fight pretty evenly with him. And in TLK, he survived attacks from Grimlock and Bee.
- 7,839
- 689
Fair enought about Starscream and Blackout
But here is the thing, Bee is clearly inferior to Starscream in the first movie, in fact, he is way inferior. The same Missiles didn't do that much against Optimus on the second movie, and the same attack that destroyed Bee's legs didn't have any effect on Ironhide, and the later took the same attack on his chest and he was still alive, also, Bee finalized Brawl.
Brawl at that point was already knocked out by Ratchet, had his Missile Launcher destroeyd by Jazz, his arm cut by Ratchet and took some punishment from both Jazz and Ironhide, when Brawl woke up, the army started shooting him, which also did some considerable damage, only than Bee started shooting him, and he was not alone, the army was also shooting Brawl, so in a way, Bumblebee didn't soloed Brawl, he had help, and alot
But here is the thing, Bee is clearly inferior to Starscream in the first movie, in fact, he is way inferior. The same Missiles didn't do that much against Optimus on the second movie, and the same attack that destroyed Bee's legs didn't have any effect on Ironhide, and the later took the same attack on his chest and he was still alive, also, Bee finalized Brawl.
Brawl at that point was already knocked out by Ratchet, had his Missile Launcher destroeyd by Jazz, his arm cut by Ratchet and took some punishment from both Jazz and Ironhide, when Brawl woke up, the army started shooting him, which also did some considerable damage, only than Bee started shooting him, and he was not alone, the army was also shooting Brawl, so in a way, Bumblebee didn't soloed Brawl, he had help, and alot
Similar threads
- Locked
