Transformers General Discussion

[Primestar3]

All I am going to say is that the BB Movie Prequel disagrees with you.

The fact that the S7 mini was initially written to fit the invalidated stories doesn't mean the mini itself is non-canon as it doesn't condradict the movies to my knowledge. The fact that the BB Movie Prequel references it implies that it is a part of the timeline established by the BB Prequel. It would be canon to both timelines in this case:

*The original Bayverse extended timeline that includes things like the novels etc.
*The timeline established by the BB Prequel.

So, yes, it was meant to fit the novels and the 2007 prequel, but the writer also used it for the BB Prequel, so it fits both.

 

[Primestar3]

@ByAsura
Forgot to tag you.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'm pretty sure the bbb movie prequel comic has now been rendered non canon to anything by this point, even if it doesn't contradict anything or not.

Other than the nuke, the comic doesn't have many notable feats, and the fact that blitz wing was using a shield against the nuke. Plus, if we were to say it's still 100 percent canon, the nuke thing is a definite outlier feat if blitz wing ranked it and the bbb prequel comic is in the same continuity as the movies, making it irrelevant

 

[Primestar3]

I'm pretty sure the bbb movie prequel comic has now been rendered non canon to anything by this point, even if it doesn't contradict anything or not.

Other than the nuke, the comic doesn't have many notable feats, and the fact that blitz wing was using a shield against the nuke. Plus, if we were to say it's still 100 percent canon, the nuke thing is a definite outlier feat if blitz wing ranked it and the bbb prequel comic is in the same continuity as the movies, making it irrelevant

They seem to have moved on from Bayverse. If that is true, there is no reason for this comic to be non-canon when it isn't condradicted.

It also makes references to Rising Storm by using a character from there (Astrotrain), implying that the comic where Shockwave survived the Tunguska event is canon to the BB Movie Prequel.

So, that would be two nuclear feats.

And the movies themselves don't really have many anti feats to invalidate them anyway.

Most of Blitzwing wasn't covered.

I mean look at Blitzwing and then Dead End (the red bot) he uses as a shield. Blitzwing is much bigger. And consider that the nuke seem to drop right next to him if not on top of him:
Scan

 

[Primestar3]

Astrotrain is Shockwave's assistant in both comics.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

They seem to have moved on from Bayverse. If that is true, there is no reason for this comic to be non-canon when it isn't condradicted.

It also makes references to Rising Storm by using a character from there (Astrotrain), implying that the comic where Shockwave survived the Tunguska event is canon to the BB Movie Prequel.

So, that would be two nuclear feats.

And the movies themselves don't really have many anti feats to invalidate them anyway.

Most of Blitzwing wasn't covered.

I mean look at Blitzwing and then Dead End (the red bot) he uses as a shield. Blitzwing is much bigger. And consider that the nuke seem to drop right next to him if not on top of him:
Scan

Those are still outliers. The characters in the movie mostly show tier 8 feats. The Tunguska never made into the film, making it irrelevant, it's like saying we should have Prowl be comparable to barricade because he initially was gonna have the spot as the police car. Many characters, and even top tiers such as Optimus and Megatron have been damaged by far weaker weapons, weapons that aren't even remotely close to town level.

 

[LordTracer]

@Drite77 Okay, fair points about the Bee v. Brawl situation, but Bee (and Barricade) should still be pretty high in the scaling due to their TLK feats, unless we separate them into Movie 1 and TLK keys (an idea that I disagree with).

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I guess likely higher could work?

 

[Primestar3]

Those are still outliers. The characters in the movie mostly show tier 8 feats. The Tunguska never made into the film, making it irrelevant, it's like saying we should have Prowl be comparable to barricade because he initially was gonna have the spot as the police car. Many characters, and even top tiers such as Optimus and Megatron have been damaged by far weaker weapons, weapons that aren't even remotely close to town level.

I don't understand what you mean. Shockwave feat happened in the timeline established by the BB Movie Prequel, thus making it not an outlier within that timeline.

Transformers being damaged by human weapons was already explained in the first movie, where it was said that TFs were weak to high heat of the sabot rounds (their metal reacts to high heat).

As I said earlier, a seperate can be made, but that doesn't mean the comics are non-canon as they are secondary canon, and they haven't been condradicted by the higher canon.

 

[Drite77]

But it really feels like Bee and Barricade just got way stronger. Bee went to someone who could not stand an attack of Starscream to being able to face off against Optimus

 

[ByAsura]

All I am going to say is that the BB Movie Prequel disagrees with you.

The fact that the S7 mini was initially written to fit the invalidated stories doesn't mean the mini itself is non-canon as it doesn't condradict the movies to my knowledge. The fact that the BB Movie Prequel references it implies that it is a part of the timeline established by the BB Prequel. It would be canon to both timelines in this case:

*The original Bayverse extended timeline that includes things like the novels etc.
*The timeline established by the BB Prequel.

So, yes, it was meant to fit the novels and the 2007 prequel, but the writer also used it for the BB Prequel, so it fits both.

They still contain just as many references to the invalidated material, as does BB itself, meaning the movie prequel events had to happen. But whatever, the best feat in the BB comic is Blitzwing tanking a castle-destroying warhead by using a Decepticon's body as a shield, which isn't even that far above the film feats.

But it really feels like Bee and Barricade just got way stronger. Bee went to someone who could not stand an attack of Starscream to being able to face off against Optimus

Given how a Optimus fights Megatron, and the Autobots cause him and Starscream to flee in the next film, I'd say all of them got upgrades.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't understand what you mean. Shockwave feat happened in the timeline established by the BB Movie Prequel, thus making it not an outlier within that timeline.

Transformers being damaged by human weapons was already explained in the first movie, where it was said that TFs were weak to high heat of the sabot rounds (their metal reacts to high heat).

As I said earlier, a seperate can be made, but that doesn't mean the comics are non-canon as they are secondary canon, and they haven't been condradicted by the higher canon.

Did you not read what I said? It never made it into the film, it was only in the script, it was never in the final product.

That makes it even worse. If they were weak to heat weapons than they should not withstand a nuke.

I never said they weren't secondary canon, and I even brought up a secondary key many times before. But the nuke thing really doesn't scale to anyone as no character has performed feats on that level prior, and all comics have very debatable Canon City to the movies and even the comics have been retconned.

 

[LordTracer]

But it really feels like Bee and Barricade just got way stronger. Bee went to someone who could not stand an attack of Starscream to being able to face off against Optimus

I mean... yeah, but I don’t think it’s actually stated that they got stronger. But if a majority agrees with splitting them into two keys, I’ll concede that.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I think a likely higher key would work.

 

[ByAsura]

@Emirp Would Ratchet surviving a massive bombardment from the military be noteworthy?

 

[Drite77]

Given how a Optimus fights Megatron, and the Autobots cause him and Starscream to flee in the next film, I'd say all of them got upgrades.

I mean, it was a 2 vs 9-10, even them would get overwhelmed, no?

@LordTracer
I mean, it is moslty like that on alot of fictions. One piece characters has alot of tiers for alot of dofferent arcs, but they are never stated to get stronger, besides the timeskip

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

@ByAsura I think so, but I'm not sure weapons they were using.

 

[Primestar3]

They still contain just as many references to the invalidated material, as does BB itself, meaning the movie prequel events had to happen. But whatever, the best feat in the BB comic is Blitzwing tanking a castle-destroying warhead by using a Decepticon's body as a shield, which isn't even that far above the film feats.

Given how a Optimus fights Megatron, and the Autobots cause him and Starscream to flee in the next film, I'd say all of them got upgrades.

Of course they ar going to contain references to those, those were canon back in the day, but it's a revised timeline now.

Did you not read what I said? It never made it into the film, it was only in the script, it was never in the final product.

That makes it even worse. If they were weak to heat weapons than they should not withstand a nuke.

I never said they weren't secondary canon. But the nuke thing really doesn't scale to anyone as no character has performed feats on that level prior, and all comics have very debatable Canon City to the movies and even the comics have been retconned.

Shockwave thing isn't only from the production bio tho. I have already mentioned many times that the BB Prequel makes reference to Rising Storm, which is where the Tunguska plot is used. As I said before, a secondary key can be made for the Bayverse profiles, but I wouldn't seperate the keys as "canon" and "IDW", but rather "movies" and "IDW", as they are secondary canon.

Regarding high heat, I think it is inconsistency as Scorponok was able to take maverick missiles which to my knowledge burn hotter than sabots do, and the reentry at mach 45 (which would produce heat higher than sabots). Sabot round plot point is is nonsensical when it comes to technicalities, but that was the context to why humans could harm them, that it was somehow their weakness.

 

[ByAsura]

@Drite It was 2 vs 5, and Starscream had previously one-shot Ratchet, IronHide and Bumblebee with a couple missiles, while Megatron is far stronger. They were damaged, but they still had their weapons, just one of which heavily damaged Grindor.

@Primestar Rising Storm references Sector 7 and the movie prequel. You're creating a new timeline of comics that simply doesn't exist.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean, it is moslty like that on alot of fictions. One piece characters has alot of tiers for alot of dofferent arcs, but they are never stated to get stronger, besides the timeskip

Yeah, that’s fair, a lot of verses do that.

 

[Drite77]

@ByAsura

Ratchet tanked the missile if I recall, and Sideswipe tanked a shot from Sentinel Prime on the 3rd movie. It was Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Ironhide, Ratchet, Jolt, Skids and Mudflap.

Maybe not the rest, but Sideswipe and Ratchet seem to be able to tank enough hits, plus they were already beaten by Prime, Starscream was even with his arm missing

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't see Sideswipe (my mistake) and Bumblebee wasn't taking an active role in combat.

Again, even if they were heavily damaged, Starscream still had his weapons, which were capable of damaging Grindor. Megatron himself was mostly intact. The fact that Prime could deal with and outright overpower all 3 also goes to show that there were some strength boosts.

 

[Drite77]

I mean, Grindor isn't really that much of a big thing besides being big

Megatron wasn't intact, Optimus gave some damage with his sword and melee attacks quite a bit, and Starscream got bullied on that battle. But ye, Optimus may have gotten stronger, but I feel that it was skillwise

Again, Sideswipe seems to be pretty strong, so is Ratchet.

 

[Primestar3]

@Drite It was 2 vs 5, and Starscream had previously one-shot Ratchet, IronHide and Bumblebee with a couple missiles, while Megatron is far stronger. They were damaged, but they still had their weapons, just one of which heavily damaged Grindor.

@Primestar Rising Storm references Sector 7 and the movie prequel. You're creating a new timeline of comics that simply doesn't exist.

All the Bayverse comics were meant to fit each other, including Rising Storm. I am well aware of that.

That does not mean that John Barber didn't try to save some of the timeline details after the TLK retcon, that is my whole point. That the BB Movie Prequel references the comics that still fit the TLK timeline on their own, it is a revised timeline. Tell me why else did the BB prequel writer put those references to those other books in there then?

But this debate is going in circles, so I'll stop, this is my last reply to this particular topic (IDW comics canonicity debate).

 

[ByAsura]

@Drite He can harm Optimus and was chosen to fight him over some other random Decepticon on Earth, so he's fairly powerful.

Note the word chose, "mostly intact". I know he was damaged, but still had weapons and enough power to kill Optimus Prime. Starscream getting bullied in that fight proves my point, if anything.

If Sideswipe was movie 1 Ratchet-level, then they would have been severely outclassed.

@Primestar By this logic, you can just pick and choose canon. Because he's referencing all of the comics, including the movie prequel, so you're not really proving anything with this point. All I'm saying is that the comics are too inconsistent within themselves and with the movies to be compatible. They should be separated, and that's that.

 

[Drite77]

Ye, he is fairly powerfull, but like, not on Prime's level. Beside, he prob was near since he captured Sam

Why does it prove the point?

Ratchet in the movie guides is said to be one of the only bots who could put up a fight against Megatron, how would they be screwed if they had 2 of that level? From the feat on the 3rd movie, Sideswipe seems to be superior to him

 

[ByAsura]

Neither is Starscream, but he's still fairly powerful.

Because Optimus was outclassing Starscream and Megatron. At that point, it's not just skill.

Even with IronHide, Ratchet was outmatched by Starscream. Putting up a fight doesn't mean the two are relative in power. What feat?

 

[Primestar3]

@Primestar By this logic, you can just pick and choose canon. Because he's referencing all of the comics, including the movie prequel, so you're not really proving anything with this point. All I'm saying is that the comics are too inconsistent within themselves and with the movies to be compatible. They should be separated, and that's that.

I said I wasn't going to reply but still.

He is only referencing the ones that don't condradict. S7 and Rising Storm don't condradict anything on their own. The reason why S7 and Rising Storm references retconned material is because those weren't retconned back then. On their own, mere references to retconned material shouldn't make, say, Rising Storm non-canon just because of those references considering that RS is directly referenced in the BB Prequel timeline, the Movie Prequel or Ghosts of Yesterday aren't, thus the latter two are retconned. New information superceedes old. Do you get where I am coming from?

The comics and movies can be seperated to different keys, I already said that many times as the comics and books are secondary canon, but that doesn't automatically make them non-canon is my point.

 

[Drite77]

Ye

But OP never overpowered them in strength, he even got grappled and tossed around by Megatron

Ya mean the 20 second fight that after Ratchet tanked the missiles and Ironhide got quite ****** by it Starscream fled?

 

[Drite77]

That fight made it look that Starscream is not powerfull enough to take the 2 or is too cowars, since he fled quite quickly

 

[LordTracer]

You just made me think of something. Ironhide could withstand Starscream’s missiles (although they sent him flying) but Blackout’s blasts basically one-shot him.

 

[Drite77]

Blackout' missiles one shot who?

 

[Primestar3]

@ByAsura
How strong do you think these strength feats are?

Bumblebee yanks a boat.


Blackout is unmoved by an omnidirectional pulse blast fired in front of his feet. The same pulse blast can send tanks flying and destroy cargo planes. What strength level is required for this? Since it is an omnidirectional blast, I imagine some of the force is lessened than a blast fired in one direction (cargo plane destroying blasts and presumably the ones that sends tanks flying).

 

[Drite77]

Also, my bad, the feat I was saying was Sideswipe tanking a shot from Sentinel's gun

 

[LordTracer]

Blackout' missiles one shot who?

Blackout’s energy blast thing basically one-shot Ironhide.

 

[Drite77]

Blackout’s energy blast thing basically one-shot Ironhide.

When? I don't recall the 2 ever facing off in the movie

 

[LordTracer]

It was during the Mission City battle.

 

[Drite77]

Well, that didn't even hitted Ironhide, but even if it basocally one shotted, so did Starscream Missile when he was facing Ironhide and Ratchet. It seems that both are around the same level

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

@ByAsura
How strong do you think these strength feats are?

Bumblebee yanks a boat.


Blackout is unmoved by an omnidirectional pulse blast fired in front of his feet. The same pulse blast can send tanks flying and destroy cargo planes. What strength level is required for this? Since it is an omnidirectional blast, I imagine some of the force is lessened than a blast fired in one direction (cargo plane destroying blasts and presumably the ones that sends tanks flying).

The bumblebee feat is a lifting one and not a strength one, and I think it's lower than class M.

The blackout should be calced.

 

[Primestar3]

The bumblebee feat is a lifting one and not a strength one, and I think it's lower than class M.

The blackout should be calced.

By strength, I mean lifting.