• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Transduality Should be Nonduality

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
You're just... making a lot of claims without substantiation here.

As far as I see it, and as has been agreed to in this thread, transduality would grant you immunity to everything at or below your dimensionality, including being bound to duality. However, smurf hax can still affect you just fine.

Nonduality would be immunity to everything, because you cannot affect something which does not exist. Just as tier 0 soulhax can't affect a soulless being, no tier of hax can affect a nondual being without established feats of doing so. However, nonduality has no resistance to being bound to duality, and while that's an extremely niche disadvantage, it's the only thing transduality has over nonduality.
Click to expand...
No, no, no. You're the ones who did this. If you have understood what we have said as being immune to "dualities on all dimensional planes", that is your problem, not ours. Or you are twisting the words to justify yourself.
 
Anyways, I will make a sandbox for a nonduality page using the standards I have showcased above. After that, I'll make a new thread because this one has been heavily derailed (and I'll make it actually staff only this time).
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Now where in my last post did I say that? All I did was fully lay out my own position on the matter.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what "everything" you said earlier means. There are 2 reasons for this.

1- You think or misunderstand very wrongly (I think the first thing I said)

2- Or you are trying to justify yourself by distorting our words.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Anyways, I will make a sandbox for a nonduality page using the standards I have showcased above. After that, I'll make a new thread because this one has been heavily derailed (and I'll make it actually staff only this time).
Click to expand...
Good luck, I'll take permission from staffs. Because it's only serves to weaken Transduality and make it easier to gain.
 
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Are you striving to attain a state of existence that transcends dualities, encompassing a nondual essence that neither exhibits' superiority nor seeks to establish any accomplishments or limitations within the realm of dimensionality?

How do you envision bringing about an influence or impact upon this state of being?
 
Georredannea15 said:
Good luck, I'll take permission from staffs. Because it's only serves to weaken Transduality and make it easier to gain.
Click to expand...
And? What if I do have some secret vendetta against transduality, and I'm only doing this because I'm a mustache twirling ne'er-do-well who schemes to make wank on VSBW slightly easier? Would that be so wrong?

Anyways, off to make the page, bye.
 
vsbattles.com

Transduality --> Nonduality Application [STAFF ONLY]

A continuation of my previous thread. As accepted, the transduality page will be renamed to Nonduality, and include both characters who lack dual traits (nonduality) and those who transcend duality (transduality). I have slightly edited the page, as well as included a detailed description on the...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

A simple bit of clean up was all it needed, actually.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
And? What if I do have some secret vendetta against transduality, and I'm only doing this because I'm a mustache twirling ne'er-do-well who schemes to make wank on VSBW slightly easier? Would that be so wrong?
Click to expand...
Yes, that would be wrong and drag the wiki backwards. Too many characters would have been wanked and it would be a refresh that greatly weakened Transduality.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
vsbattles.com

Transduality --> Nonduality Application [STAFF ONLY]

A continuation of my previous thread. As accepted, the transduality page will be renamed to Nonduality, and include both characters who lack dual traits (nonduality) and those who transcend duality (transduality). I have slightly edited the page, as well as included a detailed description on the...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

A simple bit of clean up was all it needed, actually.
Click to expand...
I guess I'll post my inputs tomorrow. But I will say that I disagree with a lot of things in the sandbox.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Why do you disagree? She did not change a single thing in the sandbox except the title, you are arguing for nothing.
Click to expand...
I'm sure page says non-duality, but I'll take another look. Because this sandbox ignores the "transcendence" that is most necessary for this hax and argues that even just being outside of the daulity system can qualify. I don't fully agree with that.

Anyway... I'll explain the details and analogies with examples tomorrow.(And I guess I gave an example from BDE before)
 
are yall actually ******* stupid

The entirety of this thread was based around removing transcendence as a requirement, which was accepted. Like, you had 4 pages to prove your point to staff, and you only now wanna start shit? Get real. You made a choice to not debate this, now live with the consequences.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
are yall actually ******* stupid
Click to expand...
If you talk like that again, I'll break your heart. I am not your family or friend, mind your words, first of all I am not a child. Don't make me say harsh words. I don't want to spoil my manners.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The entirety of this thread was based around removing transcendence as a requirement, which was accepted. Like, you had 4 pages to prove your point to staff, and you only now wanna start shit? Get real. You made a choice to not debate this, now live with the consequences.
Click to expand...
Since when are revisions accepted and finalized by only a few staff members? And we're talking about an important topic across the wiki, so we should get the opinions of many staff members. Wait for DT and other staffs for this. Nobody enjoys waiting, but you have to.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
are yall actually ******* stupid

The entirety of this thread was based around removing transcendence as a requirement, which was accepted. Like, you had 4 pages to prove your point to staff, and you only now wanna start shit? Get real. You made a choice to not debate this, now live with the consequences.
Click to expand...
Tone down the hostility
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
DT is one staff member, while multiple staff agreed with the change. You may not like it, but that's how the site works.
Click to expand...
Only a few staff. There are still people and staff who disagree. You will need more to change that.

I also said that I will write my inputs in the new revision you opened. Why should I have an obligation to prove or write "right now"?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
DT is one staff member,
Click to expand...
Ultimately speaking they're right
  • Ant is unsure if it should be added
  • DT disagrees with it
  • DDM stated that they'll wait on other mod responses to get a better idea and never respond
  • Firestorm was fine with my suggestion
At the moment it's at best 2:2:1 which isn't enough for a site wide revision on its own (before being asked, other mods did comment but even including their votes it's unsure enough to warrant more mod discussion).
 
You can't just exclude other people's agreement, what the hell? Also, and DID agree after I elaborated somewhat, so it's more accurately 4-1-1.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
You can't just exclude other people's agreement, what the hell?
Click to expand...
This is a Wiki policy revision. To my knowledge only content moderators and up can weigh in on it. In which case all the people I mentioned are the only ones who gave their input and qualify for it.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, and DID agree
Click to expand...
Ant isn't against it, but to my knowledge it was more due to it not requiring any changes to profiles more so than the policy itself.

For DDM I didn't see a second comment from them.
 
Alright, then can you call some more staff here? I've quoted the OP below, and my proposed revision to the page is here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I dislike the way we treat transduality now. Evidently, I'm not the only one, since nobody, not even the staff, seem to abide by the rules we have set in place for the power. This is because of the requirement that any prospective user should have "qualitative superiority" over the dualities they are unbound from, and merely being absent of duality doesn't qualify. This is ******* insane for several reasons, so here we go.

We Made Transduality Up

Look up the word 'transduality' and what will you find? Various VS debating pages and that's it. It is not a real term that exists, and the fact that only battleboarders know what the hell it means is a red flag. Of course, duality (and by extension, nonduality) is a very real thing that has been documented across history; Countless religions, most notably eastern religions such as Taoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism, make use of nondualism in their belief systems. The Yin-Yang, arguably the most important symbol related to duality, is in fact a representation of everything acting as a part of a nondual whole. The Taiji, which we currently use as the defining symbol on the transduality page, is a similar symbol, one representing the oneness before duality and giving birth to the Yin-Yang. The problem? Despite literal centuries of dualism being discussed in theology and philosophy, none of this shit comes even close to qualitative superiority. This means the real world basis for the power itself uses nonduality and not transduality, something that we even directly acknowledge on the page itself by choosing to use Taiji as the symbol.

Transduality Rejects the Most Archetypal Users of the Power

Imagine if someone changed the time stop qualifications so characters like Dio Brando would no longer qualify. That'd be absurd, right? Because Dio's time stop is, of course, a thing he is very well known for, to the point where he is THE character many people associate with stopping time. So why do we allow the same for transduality? We can look at every example given on the transduality page, and see just how silly this is. To be clear, I'm not denying or attempting to debunk any character on this list, merely showing how overly strict transduality's standards are.

-Kamen Rider Gaim: Said to have 'transcended' life and death, which contextually refers to escaping the cycle of life/death or destruction/creation. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Rimuru Tempest: Said to have become a 'transcendent god' over Veldanava, who is a being predating the duality of light and darkness, or yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Lucifer Morningstar: Exists outside of God's plans, which include the duality of life and death. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Sun Wukong via Buddhism Physiology: Transcendent Monks are free from attachment to all universes, containing countless phenomena governed by the yin and yang. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Dragon Talisman characters: Exists outside the Empyrean Dao, which created duality, and therefore exist outside duality itself. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Khorne: The Aethyric Void is a place where all concepts, normally separate in higher realms, break down and combine into a single, universal abstract. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Oblivion: Unbound by the laws of everything that is and isn't, and is stated to be similar to the taoist concept of wuji. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.
-Swirl of the Root: Exists beyond and encompasses all duality, including the taiji, a nondual state of oneness. Does not qualify for qualitative superiority.

From this, we can see that every single character listed on the transduality page - characters who are supposed to have the most clear cut, well known, and well explained examples of transduality on the wiki - does not even qualify for transduality. Now, some of these characters are said to 'transcend' duality, but we explicitly do not allow qualitative superiority to be given on the basis of transcendence without context, so not even that qualifies. Some of you may recall the changes made to type 5 acausality, where the standards became so overly strict that no character on the wiki qualified. What we see now is the exact same, and just like type 5 acausality, it's a sign that something needs to change.

Requiring Qualitative Superiority Makes No Sense

Qualitative superiority is, as we consider it, a state wherein everything beneath you is seen as uncountably infinitely small. This can be achieved merely through infinite differences in spatial dimensions, or by seeing lower planes as something akin to fiction. As of now, we also consider qualitative superiority over duality as a requirement for transduality, disallowing the mere absence of duality, a standard which, as shown above, is ridiculous. However, there are two other reasons why qualitative superiority should not be the benchmark for nonduality.

Logically, non-duality can and should do everything that transduality does. If someone transcends life and death, they'd of course be in a state of deathless immortality, neither alive nor dead, and therefore immune to the manipulation of life and death. But the exact same goes for non-duality. If you exist absent of life and death, then you'd still have deathless immortality, you'd still be neither alive nor dead, and you'd still be immune to life or death manipulation. The same goes for any other duality there is, so why do we insist on requiring transcendence?

But worse than all that, we don't even consider what it actually means to be qualitatively superior in this context. It's fairly easy to apply QS to a physical structure like a universe, but concepts are a different ball game entirely; Can you really be 'infinitely larger than' life and death? What does it mean to be uncountably infinitely greater than existence and non-existence? Or, to give a more specific example, does it make any sense at all for a character to transcend the duality of reality and fiction by viewing it as fiction? As a consequence of this QS requirement, anybody with low 1-C tiering or 5D HDE would just, have transduality by default because they are technically transcending the dualities present in lower dimensions. Zero thought was put into how and why 'qualitative superiority' would even work in this context; Ostensibly, it was only added in order to make transduality harder to get and therefore more "special", or the inclusion of QS could ironically make transduality something that every tier 1 character gets.

TL;DR: Transduality's standards are nonsensical, overly strict, and quite literally everybody on this site ignores them anyways. Transduality should be changed to non-duality.
Click to expand...
 
He's not gonna reply at this point. Cant you call literally any other staff member here? At the very least, I remember Ultima and Agnaa having opinions on this topic.
 
PrinceofPein said:
I have seen no argument of why existing outside something means immune to it if it is actively applied on you
Click to expand...
Actually, I stated this, or rather, it was about why being outside a duality system would make you immune to that system and entitle you to non-duality. Which I think is wrong because to be outside a duality system ≠ to be lack of a duality system(non-duality)
Just as a character outside of space-time and devoid/lack of space-time is not affected by space-time, but someone outside of space-time cannot qualify for BDE and can be affected by a later power.

And the question I asked is this; Why is independence and being outside the system a non-duality? It's like arguing that a character who is independent and outside of space-time, lack/devoid of space-time, but this is wrong.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
PrinceofPein said:
A draft of the page should be made and also, I have seen no argument of why existing outside something means immune to it if it is actively applied on you
Click to expand...
With all respect, if this is true, then we also somehow need to revise the definition of “immunity”. Since indeed, if you lack something, you are immune to it.
 
Do any of you have permission to be commenting here right now?

Anyways, I've already posted a draft above. It includes relatively minor changes, mostly focused on explaining the difference between nonduality and transduality.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Alright, then can you call some more staff here? I've quoted the OP below, and my proposed revision to the page is here.
Click to expand...
 
Georredannea15 said:
Actually, I stated this, or rather, it was about why being outside a duality system would make you immune to that system and entitle you to non-duality. Which I think is wrong because to be outside a duality system ≠ to be lack of a duality system(non-duality)
Click to expand...
That's exactly what it means, being outside of that system means tht system never applied to you.example: someone lacking the concept of time cant be hit with a time based attack/hax
 
Marshadow29 said:
That's exactly what it means, being outside of that system means tht system never applied to you.example: someone lacking the concept of time cant be hit with a time based attack/hax
Click to expand...
But that's not what I was talking about. Being outside a duality system does not mean that you lack of that duality system in terms of existence, and we have the same standards for BDE.

In addition, a person who lacks the concept of death or time can be subjected to concept transfer by any power and this lack can be removed, and in this case, the character is now in a position to be harmed by those concepts. There are many examples of this in fiction, both spiritually and conceptually.

This is one of the uses of the conceptual manipin I described, so a character with non-duality does not directly gain immunity to that concepts.

In short, with a concept transfer, you make characters who are "non-duality" now affected by those concepts.(Unless they transcends them, they are affected by this concept transfer)
 
Georredannea15 said:
This is one of the uses of the conceptual manipin I described, so a character with non-duality does not directly gain immunity to that concepts.

In short, with a concept transfer, you make characters who are "non-duality" now affected by those concepts.(Unless they transcends them, they are affected by this concept transfer)
Click to expand...
That was my original idea of ND vs TD
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Verrel966
Ask about Qualitatively Superior on Transduality
Replies
9
Views
2K
Astral_Trinity439
Astral_Trinity439
Fixxed
  • Locked
Higher D by Transcending Infinite/all level of Power and Existential
Replies
7
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Georredannea15
A little change or fix for the Nonduality page??
2
Replies
75
Views
9K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Kulf_Boba
Doubts about Level 1-A
Replies
13
Views
904
Kulf_Boba
Kulf_Boba
Fixxed
  • Locked
Revision about Duality
Replies
2
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top