Transduality Should be Nonduality

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bruh... in previous thread we even waiting for 1 year (part 3 it will 2-3 if include part 1 and 2), this is a very controvensional ability, we cannot just see 1 or 2 staff opinion and then apply it, even we have a disagree from one of most knowladgeable staff in this wiki

Don't be dishonest. Transduality was only a small fraction of that thread; It was mostly concerned with the tiering system. Compared to that, this thread is tiny.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What exactly do you mean by "actively applied to"?

You can refer to my post where I explained it
Also "outside of X and Y" is different from "neither X or Y" since you are claiming outside is also non-duality
let me give an example, You are from Universe A which operates under a different cause and effect from B, of course while in universe A, cause and effects of B have no power over you, but the moment you move to universe B, you get subjected to Universe B causality.
That is not a 1:1 example but it helps build up my next example
The duality of burn and not-burn.
burn in the sense that you get burnt and not burn in the sense that you are not burnt
As an example, I am currently outside this logical duality but If you apply fire to me I get burnt and if you apply the "not-fire" to me I become immune to fire.

So to speak outside duality makes no sense tiering wise.

 

[Georredannea15]

You can refer to my post where I explained it
Also "outside of X and Y" is different from "neither X or Y" since you are claiming outside is also non-duality
let me give an example, You are from Universe A which operates under a different cause and effect from B, of course while in universe A, cause and effects of B have no power over you, but the moment you move to universe B, you get subjected to Universe B causality.
That is not a 1:1 example but it helps build up my next example
The duality of burn and not-burn.
burn in the sense that you get burnt and not burn in the sense that you are not burnt
As an example, I am currently outside this logical duality but If you apply fire to me I get burnt and if you apply the "not-fire" to me I become immune to fire.

So to speak outside duality makes no sense tiering wise.

Yeah, I have mentioned this before, albeit with different examples. I definitely agree with this.

 

[Fixxed]

Don't be dishonest. Transduality was only a small fraction of that thread; It was mostly concerned with the tiering system. Compared to that, this thread is tiny.

Bruh.... if it just "a small" then it would just end in part 1 or 2 like CM, in fact it become the last thing that getting revision

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can't really respond to this right now, but it's egregiously wrong and a clear misunderstanding of how these abilities work. I will attempt to explain it later if my piece of shit isp feels like working anytime soon

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me of the staff conclusions here so far please? A connected tally would also be useful.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can somebody remind me of the staff conclusions here so far please?

We are currently awaiting DT's evaluation of the matter, as he strongly opposes it. However, he is currently occupied with the "Smurf" thread, where he is responding to my intricate draft.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I can remind him if you wish though.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Okay. I can remind him if you wish though.

This holds significant importance to me and to wiki, therefore, I do request it. However, I would appreciate it if the opposing side could condense all their posts into a single summary post.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me of the staff conclusions here so far please? A connected tally would also be useful.

We are currently awaiting DT's evaluation of the matter, as he strongly opposes it. However, he is currently occupied with the "Smurf" thread, where he is responding to my intricate draft.

Okay. I can remind him if you wish though.

This holds significant importance to me and to wiki, therefore, I do request it. However, I would appreciate it if the opposing side could condense all their posts into a single summary post.

@DontTalkDT

Your input would be very appreciated here.

 

[Sisyphusx]

@DontTalkDT

Your input would be very appreciated here.

Bump!

 

[Reiner04]

tldr of the argument is; outside duality does not mean you cannot get affected by it if it is actively applied to you

It's not mere outside, pein. It's outside or not but we do know it's non-[system of duality], it's like saying EE will work on someone who is neither non-existent or existent. He's not what hax is about, it's not range that is issue but lackness of what hax applies to. Mind hax doesn't applies to non-mind, soul hax doesn't apply to non-soul, biological manp doesn't apply to non-bio.

 

[Georredannea15]

It's not mere outside, pein. It's outside or not but we do know it's non-[system of duality], it's like saying EE will work on someone who is neither non-existent or existent. He's not what hax is about, it's not range that is issue but lackness of what hax applies to. Mind hax doesn't applies to non-mind, soul hax doesn't apply to non-soul, biological manp doesn't apply to non-bio.

But you can give a soul to someone who is lack of soul and make them susceptible to soul manipulation. Or concept, or mind... This is possible in fiction, and there are examples of this.

 

[Larssx]

But you can give a soul to someone who is lack of soul and make them susceptible to soul manipulation. Or concept, or mind... This is possible in fiction, and there are examples of this.

Bro, There is ayt tomorrow. What are you doing here?
I got permission from Qawsedf234
Anyway, I agree with Geor on this.
It is true that since a character has no soul, character cannot be affected by soul attacks
But your opponent can add a new soul to you
Obviously I have not read the previous messages but the difference is simple
Since "transduality" represents transcendence, such situations do not apply to it
But only what you call "nonduality" is the lack of it.
Doesn't mean someone can't come to you and add this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean idk why this is up for discussion, thread's been accepted for a while now. DT hasn't replied in weeks, so I assume it's fine to apply this.

 

[Georredannea15]

I mean idk why this is up for discussion, thread's been accepted for a while now. DT hasn't replied in weeks, so I assume it's fine to apply this.

I don't know why we count the acceptance of only a few staff as an agreement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't know why we count the acceptance of only a few staff as an agreement.

 

[Georredannea15]

?

 

[Reiner04]

Smh guys stop derailing you all have said your peace, leave it at that.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I don't know why we count the acceptance of only a few staff as an agreement.

Dt's opinion is sort of treated like god

 

[Flashlight237]

The OP seems to make sense here. Transduality is basically a word we've just coined as a synonym for "non-duality," in which case it basically ignores normal conventions of duality. It would only make sense to rename it to the original word ("Non-duality").

 

[Georredannea15]

The OP seems to make sense here. Transduality is basically a word we've just coined as a synonym for "non-duality," in which case it basically ignores normal conventions of duality. It would only make sense to rename it to the original word ("Non-duality").

The problem is that non-duality is only a subset of Transduality and nowhere near Transduality. A non-duality character can still be damaged by concept transfer, but this is not possible in Transduality.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The OP seems to make sense here. Transduality is basically a word we've just coined as a synonym for "non-duality," in which case it basically ignores normal conventions of duality. It would only make sense to rename it to the original word ("Non-duality").

Trans-dual has already existed as a concept before the wiki, but I do agree with the seperation

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The problem is that non-duality is only a subset of Transduality and nowhere near Transduality. A non-duality character can still be damaged by concept transfer, but this is not possible in Transduality.

It is absolutely possible in transduality, you just need to do so using concepts that are of a higher degree than that entity.

 

[Georredannea15]

It is absolutely possible in transduality, you just need to do so using concepts that are of a higher degree than that entity.

No, should a character who receives Transduality from, say, Type 2 concepts and dualities take damage from Type 1 conceptual manipulation? While such logic is open to debate, that's not what the standards currently say.

Also, what I'm talking about is concept transfer.

For example, if you transcends the concepts of life and death, the concepts of life and death cannot effect you in any way,

If you lack the concepts of death and life, you can become vulnerable again to the concept of death or life through a transference of concepts, because just because you are a non-duality being does not mean that you will not be affected by this duality or that this duality will not be transferred to you. Because you are not transcendent in any way from this dual system, you just lack of this duality system.

Because a non-duality not mean transcends the this duality system.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, should a character who receives Transduality from, say, Type 2 concepts and dualities take damage from Type 1 conceptual manipulation? While such logic is open to debate, that's not what the standards currently say.

Also, what I'm talking about is concept transfer.

For example, if you transcends the concepts of life and death, the concepts of life and death cannot effect you in any way,

If you lack the concepts of death and life, you can become vulnerable again to the concept of death or life through a transference of concepts, because just because you are a non-duality being does not mean that you will not be affected by this duality or that this duality will not be transferred to you. Because you are not transcendent in any way from this dual system, you just lack of this duality system.

Because a non-duality not mean transcends the this duality system.

That is a massive NLF. We can't assume that someone who transcends duality will be assumed to transcend it on every conceivable level; Their resistances would extend infinitely into tier 0 if we treated it like that, because there will always be a higher layer that such a character doesn't transcend and can still be affected by.

 

[Fixxed]

It is absolutely possible in transduality, you just need to do so using concepts that are of a higher degree than that entity.

*Higher degree than the transduality's nature of that entity

If it can still be effected by normal higher degree ability that mostly just came from bypass resistence, so the immunity from duality is for what

 

[Larssx]

That is a massive NLF. We can't assume that someone who transcends duality will be assumed to transcend it on every conceivable level; Their resistances would extend infinitely into tier 0 if we treated it like that, because there will always be a higher layer that such a character doesn't transcend and can still be affected by.

Geor was talking about hax layers.
What you say is true for higher dimensional conceptual attacks, TD 2 will not save you from them
But as an example, if you are 4D and have TD2 also your opponent has a conceptual manipulation with high layers in 4D, this does not affect you.

 

[Georredannea15]

That is a massive NLF. We can't assume that someone who transcends duality will be assumed to transcend it on every conceivable level; Their resistances would extend infinitely into tier 0 if we treated it like that, because there will always be a higher layer that such a character doesn't transcend and can still be affected by.

Please read what I say more carefully. What I am talking about does not work in all dimensions and planes, it only applies to concepts on the same plane of existence, not to concepts in higher dimensional planes.

And I don't understand why when you say "all concepts" you think of concepts in all dimensional planes. These are topics that have already been discussed since ancient times, but there are still those who do not understand.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Geor was talking about hax layers.
What you say is true for higher dimensional conceptual attacks, TD 2 will not save you from them
But as an example, if you are 4D and have TD2 also your opponent has a conceptual manipulation with high layers in 4D, this does not affect you.

Yeah, okay, and hax layers don't come into play against nondual entities either. So my point stands, where transcendence isn't as powerful as it's made out to be

 

[Larssx]

Yeah, okay, and hax layers don't come into play against nondual entities either. So my point stands, where transcendence isn't as powerful as it's made out to be

Transduality is powerful.
Read my message above
Even if you are in a state of nonduality, someone can come to you and put a concept inside you
You are just "Nonduality" but in a situation where you are Transduality, somebody cannot come and put a concept inside you because you are transcendence to these concepts.
What you're doing is really weakening Transduality.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Transduality is powerful.
Read my message above
Even if you are in a state of nonduality, someone can come to you and put a concept inside you
You are just "Nonduality" but in a situation where you are Transduality, somebody cannot come and put a concept inside you because you are transcendence to these concepts.
What you're doing is really weakening Transduality.

You are transcendent of those concepts up to a certain level, jesus christ. If you transcend things on a low 1-C level, you will not be immune to a 1-A guy forcing a concept onto you, because claiming otherwise is a huge NLF.

I'm not engaging with this anymore, yall seriously wanna give infinite tier 0 layers of resistance to anybody who "transcends" life and death and it's the most disgusting wank I've ever seen. Letting VS debates be overrun with notions of "transcendence" was the biggest mistake in the history of this community.

 

[Georredannea15]

You are transcendent of those concepts up to a certain level, jesus christ. If you transcend things on a low 1-C level, you will not be immune to a 1-A guy forcing a concept onto you, because claiming otherwise is a huge NLF.

I'm not engaging with this anymore, yall seriously wanna give infinite tier 0 layers of resistance to anybody who "transcends" life and death and it's the most disgusting wank I've ever seen. Letting VS debates be overrun with notions of "transcendence" was the biggest mistake in the history of this community.

You're still misinterpreting, uhhh... Nobody mentioned "all dualities" in all dimensional planes, you are the one who brought it up.

 

[Larssx]

up to a certain level, jesus christ. If you transcend things on a low 1-C level, you will not be immune to a 1-A guy forcing a concept onto you, because claiming otherwise is a huge NLF.

I'm not engaging with this anymore, yall seriously wanna give infinite tier 0 layers of resistance to anybody who "transcends" life and death and it's the most disgusting wank I've ever seen. Letting VS debates be overrun with notions of "transcendence" was the biggest mistake in the history of this community.

I'm not talking about higher dimensional concepts, damn it, how many times are you gonna get this wrong?
I'm talking about concepts that gain layers in equal dimensionality
It's not too hard to understand
If you are 4D and have TD 2 will be transcendence of all 4 dimensional concepts that means will not matter whether they are layered or not.
"I'm talking about layers in equal dimensionality"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, I understand that layers in the same dimension do not matter for transduality. However, do you understand that the same is also true of nonduality?

You keep making the claim that duality can be bestowed upon a nondual entity, which is true. However, you're adamantly refusing to acknowledge that the same is also true of transduality once you include higher dimensions, which is why I brought them up in the first place.

Literally the only discernable difference between nonduality and transduality is that nonduality can be bestowed duality from any dimensionality, while transdual entities can only be bestowed duality from equal or higher dimensionalities. In fact, since higher-dimensional hax can't affect beings who lack something at all, regardless if potency, while the same isn't true of someone who transcends something, even that caveat isn't enough to make nonduality less impressive than transduality.

 

[Larssx]

However, you're adamantly refusing to acknowledge that the same is also true of transduality once you include higher dimensions,

I never refused.
My point is that even if you 4D and have TD 2, your opponent cannot put a 4D concepts inside you
But if you only 4D and have "Nonduality," your opponent can still put a 4D concepts inside you
I'm really tired of repeating what I wrote
It's not difficult to understand, don't you want to understand?

 

[Georredannea15]

Yes, I understand that layers in the same dimension do not matter for transduality. However, do you understand that the same is also true of nonduality?

You keep making the claim that duality can be bestowed upon a nondual entity, which is true. However, you're adamantly refusing to acknowledge that the same is also true of transduality once you include higher dimensions, which is why I brought them up in the first place.

But the problem is that we are talking about the same dimensional plane for both. If a character with Non-duality is transferred to a concept on an equal plane, it becomes damaged, but this is not the case for Transduality.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I never refused.
My point is that even if you 4D and have TD 2, your opponent cannot put a 4D concepts inside you
But if you only 4D and have "Nonduality," your opponent can still put a 4D concepts inside you
I'm really tired of repeating what I wrote
It's not difficult to understand, don't you want to understand?

A 4D transdual character would only transcend things up to a 3D level, because if they transcended 4D, they'd be 5D. So yeah, while there is a slight difference in how transduality and nonduality would interact with being "bestowed" duality, point remains that it can happen to both, and the difference is small enough and rare enough to not even be worth discussing. 99.9% of the time, they function identically.

 

[Larssx]

A 4D transdual character would only transcend things up to a 3D level, because if they transcended 4D, they'd be 5D. So yeah, while there is a slight difference in how transduality and nonduality would interact with being "bestowed" duality, point remains that it can happen to both, and the difference is small enough and rare enough to not even be worth discussing. 99.9% of the time, they function identically.

First of all thats not a qualitative transcendence in the way you think.
Thats by nature transcending 4D concepts, that doesn't make you 5D
If, as you say, Transduality had only transcended 3D state, 4D concepts would have damaged transduality again.
And Transduality would be really, really weak.
Also the difference between Non Duality and Transduality is really not small.
In a war, they'll be able to put the concept inside you.
This will really affect most character battles.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're just... making a lot of claims without substantiation here.

As far as I see it, and as has been agreed to in this thread, transduality would grant you immunity to everything at or below your dimensionality, including being bound to duality. However, smurf hax can still affect you just fine.

Nonduality would be immunity to everything, because you cannot affect something which does not exist. Just as tier 0 soulhax can't affect a soulless being, no tier of hax can affect a nondual being without established feats of doing so. However, nonduality has no resistance to being bound to duality, and while that's an extremely niche disadvantage, it's the only thing transduality has over nonduality.