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Touhou Thread Part 4: Youkai are Unbreakable

Saikou_The_Lewd_King

The King of all Things Lewd
VS Battles
Retired
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Yes, more Touhou. This one is about Regenerationn.

So, first of all: What are Gods and Youkai? In Touhou, both are similar as in they are the manifestation of something. Something unexplained? People thinks it's a youkai who did it. So a youkai is created from such belief. A large group of Humans have faith in something? A God is created.

Thus, Youkai and Gods aren't actual physical beings, more like physical manifestation of somehting. This is further proven by the fact that most gods actually doesn't possess a body, and instead manifest themselves through summoning or otherwise. Some Gods DO have a physical body so interect without summoning, but in the end they are exactly the same as normal gods.

Thus, most gods actually "regenerates" their actual body from nothing (If they have one that is) although they still need their Disembodied conciousness to exists.

Thus all gods that aren't part human (Like Sanae) would most likely gets Low-Godly Regenerationn.

Now for Youkai.

Well first of all, seems like even weak youkai gets a feat in Touhou 14 and Ownards: They all come into the battefield by regenerating from a cloud of darkness . So Low-High Regenerationn for every Youkai.

However, there is the fact that Gods = Youkai more or less in biology. It's been stated that they are very similar, being born from humans emotions, with Gods being from Faith and Youkai from fear. Not only that but it has also been stated that they can't really be killed by Physical means, requiring Spiritual attacks to be truly killed. Thus, it seems likely to me that they possess Low-Godly Regenerationn too.

But of course, they all got weaknesses, since humans have been able to defeat Youkai for generations before the Spell Card rules. So, in order of usefulness of Regenerationn..

Youkai: To me, it would makes sense to have 2 Regenerationn stats for them: Physical and Spiritual. Most Youkai would have Low-Godly physical Regenerationn. However, Youkai are indeed weak to some Spiritual Attacks with meaning to them. It means most Anti-Demon stuff and their weaknesses would deal actual scars and damage to them. Only some youkai have impressive Regenerationn in this domain, like Remilia, who should have her current regen for her Spiritual Regen. I don't think any other youkai have noteworthy Spiritual regen to them. Also lack of fear and humans food can kill them.

Gods: Unlike Youkai they have no weaknesses to Spiritual damage, as no technique or attacks were ever made to harm them. After, who would want to harm their god? Seems like their only weaknesses would be lack of Faith. It wouldn't kill them, just BFR them hard or weaken them. Although having even a single person having faith in them would be enough to bring them back, just really weakly.

Fairies: No change here. Unlike gods or youkai they don't run on faith or fear, but nature. Hence they lack their weaknesses. They can only be permenantly destroyed by them turning into youkai eventually due to their power (It never happened however) or destroy the nature they embody (Which is extremely hard).

Hourai Immortals: Unlike those above, they don't depend on anything. Only their souls keep them alive, and it's like extremely hard to reach. So no change here either.

Also, lack of Faith or Fear won't instantly kill them. It seems more like they would grow hungry/weaker over time and eveutally die, but not applicable in a direct fight.

Also, little change, bu Sanae using the gods isn't "Prep-time". She can uses them Mid-Fight pretty easily, at their full power too.

So in the end:

All youkai (Except Magicians or Half-Youkai): Low-Godly Physical Regen, Unknown to Low-High Spiritual Regen.

All gods (Except Half-human gods): Low Godly Regen.

So yeah. Stuff. I guess.
 
Isn't the cloud be a way for them to introduce themselve though? They don't actually come and form from the cloud of darkness, because they still wearing clothes that are still damagable, and thus physical. (Suika is a special exception to this, of course) (It could have been explained that these clothing regenerate with them, but some of them is depicted to be naked all the time, and need actual cloth to cover them)

Still, i agree with the regenerative stuff.


Edit: That's also mean Touhou girl really are attentive to their's clothing, even the most dirty ones.
 
Hmm... worth considering, I guess. First I actually want to link the relevant canon materials on the topic though, to have a look at exactly what is stated how.

That said gods have a weakness. What is purification to a youkai is impurity to a god, I would believe. Likely attacks of impurity can harm them quite a bit. Also consider that in gensokyo no one can run out of faith, because it is the fantasy side of things.

The other thing is that it should be specified that such Regenerationn would in any case only be for attacks without meaning. The thing is meaning doesn't have to mean a specific weakness to a youkai or something, per definition all spellcards are attacks that carry meaning for example.

To quote from the draft of the spellcard rules:

-"Give a name and a meaning to the elegance of each duel."

-"Do not use meaningless attacks."

-"Meaning is equivalent to power."

So it would seem that meaning here is something more general than just purification attacks or similar. Maybe just absolutely anything supernatural qualifies?

Edit: Or it could be that for any meaningful battle (that is fought for a cause / out of a good reason) their durability is actually normal...

(I would also not give much on the cloud of darkness part)
 
^"Meaning" here is when you spiritually imbued a part of yourself, so that that attack have a bit of "you" in it. Usually , it mean bloodlust.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot that the Youkai in there is different from the traditional Youkai, in that they began to become independent from the human altogether.
 
If meaning is defined like that it might as well is not notable, as it would mean that you only have to seriously try to kill them in order to do damage like usual. That is just the case as per standard assumptions.

But In such discussion its really the best if the ones arguing would just link / quote where exactly the informations come from so that everyone can make his own picture of things.
 
Most of the infos comes form Akyuu http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Youkai

Since PMiSS is a book destined to humans in Gensokyo (Where magic seems really common) I really doubt anything supernatural applies.

ÕªûµÇ¬ÚÇǵ▓╗ÒüºÒü»ÒÇüÞéëõ¢ôÒü½ÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÒéÆõ©ÄÒüêÒéﵡªÕÖ¿ÒüºÒü»Òü¬ÒüÅÒÇüõ¢òÒüï『Þ¼éÒéÅÒéî』Òü«ÒüéÒéﵡªÕÖ¿Òüîµ£øÒü¥ÒüùÒüäÒÇé In extermination, one does not use weapons that cause physical damage. Weapons with an "origin" are more preferable.
ÕªûµÇ¬Òü»ÒÇüÕÉìÕëìÒéäÞ¿ÇÒüäõ╝ØÒüêþ¡ëÒÇüþ▓¥þÑ×þÜäÒü¬µö╗µÆâÒü½Õ╝▒ÒüäÒÇé Youkai are weak to spiritual attacks such as names or traditions.
It seems like things that just damages the body won't do it. Even if you summoned a fire spell, it's still only physical. So I'd say anything that relates to the Soul, or Religion or has a special meaning (Such as a tradition used to banish evil) could hurt them. But just saying Supernatural stuff seems really too general (Since that would include any kind of magic ever).

Although it seems like "Meaning" isn't clear in Touhou.
 
Looks legit imo. I'd search up more of the articles to find other proof but otherwise it seems fitting. Should the lunarians get this too?
 
Andykhang said:
^Lunarian also include Sagume Kishin and Eirin Yagokoro, so that isn't so.
I mean actual lunarians like Non-Hourai Kaguya and Eirin and the Watatsukis. Gods and Rabbits and Spirit living on the moon but who aren't "actual" Lunarians would most likely get their respective regen.
 
Well, that article does strictly speaking only state that youkai have a weakness against spriritual stuff, believes etc.

It doesn't really state that they are immune to anything else, just that causing physical damage is the worse choice when compared to spiritual damage.
 
All the things mentioned seem to imply that Youkai / Gods are Non-Corporeal, with how physical damage is typically irrelevant.
 
Well I'm more talking about how they compared to Gods in how they are almost the same thing except with a different source of power. Youkai just happens to have much more weaknessess than gods. There isn't anything really contradicting this in PMiSS.
 
sooo... any other sources on the Regenerationn claims than this one?

Because this one really doesn't state immunity to physical attacks, but just reduced effectiveness when compared to spiritual attacks (or the other way around that youkai are especially weak against those)
 
Sometimes Yamatohime, you confuse us. No offense.

Though I don't necessarily think this is resistance to haxx when it's claiming that physical damage and wounds aren't effective. It might imply an inability to die from this things or a combination of that and resistance after all.
 
Again.

Non-Corporeal may be the best bet.
 
Just checking out. The term "it just can't be affected by physical forces" in non-corporeal page means physical forces will phase out from their body?
 
^That would be Yuyuko, in that case. It's more like at long at these guy's soul isn't damage, they would regenerate over time from any physical damage.
 
I really don't think it's overtime. Akyuu mentions they regen almost instantly.

Also, yeah I think they are pretty much Non-Corporeal, but pretty sure that Non-Corporeal + Physical Manifestation of your Body = Low-Godly regen, unless I'm wrong somehwere.
 
About the naming and meaning part. The best example is probably "Zashiki-warashi of Intellectual Village" where youkais are considered outright impossible to kill but can be countered via names and meanings.

As for Touhou...

If you know true name of youkai it's no stronger than human if you want to place curse on them (the difference in magical potential is still here though). But youkais except onis are usualy not that stupid. Onis on other hand extremely strong and can shrug off almost everything with thier powerlevel (they required special rituals to banish).

If you don't know the name of youkai but has some degree of knowledge of its species. It means you know their meaning and can counter them with the right ritual or magic.

If you don't know name or species... You're screwed up since you can't damage your enemy because they basicaly weak to special ritual, magic or other types of interaction. It's like an old school games where you can shoot at specific part of the boss to damage it... But if you don't know where to shoot...

That's why youkais magicians are very annoying youkais - they have no weaknesses. At the same time... They are easy to deal with... Since they don't have strong points.
 
^From what i see though, Reimu just deal with them by throwing needle, ofuda, the stick, the Yin-Yang Orb or even hands and legs at them whether they're vampire, werewolf, rokurokubi, satori or oni... she's simply just that strong (the ofuda part is probably in combi with her abilities too, since Marisa (and we) don't really get why just scribbling "Big House" in them worked, unless we know why...). In that verse, she's down-right ridiculous.


Edit: Bit off topic, sorry. About what you said, i agree with that. Though then the Youkai is pretty careless, just showing their name around (then again, guess it's because everyone just isn't serious)
 
Reimu probably has vast knowledge (at least her shrine should) but otherwise she just use her intuition to beat her enemies... Wild guessing at the best of her ability. Marisa is likely study a lot (even though she does not look like one who like to study) to compete with Reimu... And additionaly... Sheer firepower.
 
Hmm... well, I guess given the information its fine to say that gods can be reborn from their myths.

Instead of Regenerationn, I would maybe give them type 8 immortality here, though.


About the relation to youkai, I am more sceptical. They don't share the trait of being reborn by their myth, given that they are known to be quite killable (touhou wiki also writes they can die of old age, even though I couldn't find the source of that).

Youkai notably also lack the ability to change their abilities, because of myth. So while they disappear when forgotten (which, as mentioned, I believe doesn't apply in gensokyo), they are not really the incarnation of the myth about them like gods are.

Furthermore they don't seem to share the gods non-corporeal nature, given that in case of gods it comes from being the true nature of all (or certain) things. I don't believe youkai share that trait as well.
 
^It's more like because Youkai are being rejected by people though. The old age thing is a bit skeptical as well, because there are clear powerhouse that just get stronger with age ( like Ran, Yuuka, Yukari and others...). I do think they are a bit non-corporeal though, because they also come from the nature (although percieved) of thing.
 
Yeah, deities can "die"... Or more correctly - disappear if they are forgotten. It probably has two stages: if there is not enough faith - they will become non-corporeal; the second stage is likely "death" of god.

As for youkais... They share all good and bad things from their mythology as well as ressurection through myth. But unlike deities who mythologicaly are described quite detailed (complete with personality) youkais share only basic characteristics like abilities, looks and etc. So even if youkai is ressurected through myth - it's not the same youkai.

Of course... Some youkais probably can exist without human belief like ghosts and onis.
 
^Basically, the god are the named character and Youkai are various monster from mook to demon lord. Though to think about it, look like some Youkai are so famous, they ironically have traited of God with them, like some monster is given dialogue (like Suika being so famous, she's even have name and detailed depiction as the Shuten-doji. Though that just leave Yukari, the one and only Youkai that get so strong despite being pretty unknown.)
 
Shinki and Yuuka quite unfamous too...

Among the three great beasts Shuten-Doji is the weakest. At least in most works about it.
 
Shinki isn't a traditional Youkai, but rather the demon goddess. I have no idea why Yuuka is that strong... except alien.
 
Well the reasons why Youkai are so easly killable despite Type 8 Immortality is because they have a shitton of weaknesses.

And it seems like the line is very very thin between God and Youkai, as it seems like one can go from the other relatively easily, and some Gods looks almost like Youkai.
 
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