Touhou regen neg and more CRT

[Speedblitzer50]

Finally, here comes a Touhou CRT so this verse doesn't stay dead on the wiki lol. I just hope my way of speaking is understood because Google Translate is horrible.

Well, the main thing about this CRT is that the entire cast of playable characters from Touhou 8 (Reimu, Yukari, Marisa, Alice, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu and Yuyuko) get regeneration negation and immortality negation, because they can kill Fujiwara no Mokou despite his mid-godly regeneration possible hight godly and his type 3 and 5 immortality

During their battle in the extra stage, Mokou is killed several times and she reappears using a spell card called resurrection, which means that she actually died but was resurrected, her spell card is not called regeneration or healing, it is called resurrection and to resurrect you must die before

This means that the rules for spell cards that make battles do not lethal were broken, and the protagonists fought Mokou seriously to the point of killing her several times (despite her regeneration and immortality) while she was only resurrected.

Another thing that supports that the spell card rules were broken was that Youmu said that she didn't hold back during the battle, which means that she seriously attacked Mokou and killed her several times (just like the other protagonists)

Additionally, immortals from the hourai elixir receive immortality type 4 and resurrection (If Mokou can be resurrected thanks to his hourai elixir, then all elixir users should do the same, such as Kaguya, Eirin and Chang'e)

So what I finally propose is:

-Regeneration negation and
immortality negation (mid-godly possible hight-godly, type 3 & 5) for the entire Touhou 8 cast mentioned above

-Mokou also receives regeneration negation and immortality negation (mid-godly possible hight-godly, type 3 & 5) as she can self-kill herself on her time-limited spell cards. (Kaguya, Eirin and Chang'e also also get this by scalling Mokou)


-Resurrection and immortality type 4 for Mokou, Kaguya, Eirin and Chang'e thanks to the hourai elixir

-Resistance to immortality negation type 4 for the hourai elixir users, since Youmu who was fighting seriously without holding back couldn't negate Mokou resurrection

-Yukari receives possible immortality negation type 4 of 2 layers, since she can make Mokou cross the boundary of life and death (Possible causing her to die forever, even tough Youmu couldn't negate his resurrection)

-New Attack potency justifications for the Touhou 8 cast of playable characters (They were able to kill Mokou multiple times in a serious fight)

-Attack potency old justification "inflicted so much pain onto Mokou to where she coldn't fight anymore despite her immortality" will be eliminated because the one I propose makes more sense, since I don't know what it has to do with having caused pain to Mokou and being immortal because even in spell cards normal battles the fighters still feel pain


AGREE: Deidalius (disagree with regen/immortality neg), Sdjlakjh

DISAGREE: Quibster (Only agrees with mid-godly regeneration neg resistance)

NEUTRAL:

 

[Deidalius]

I'll respond later

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Well lol

 

[Deidalius]

I agree that the characters were not holding back and that they were killing Mokou, but I don't think they were negating any type of immortality or regeneration since after being killed, Mokou explodes, and she just resurrects.

This seems to be more of a thing related to semantics, but Mokou's immortality is about reviving after dying, so with enough force, you could kill her without the need of bypassing her immortality, but that means Mokou will just revive from your attack so you won't be able to permanently put her down just by physically destroying her body.

I agree with the new AP justification, though. I am pretty certain that Mokou is a character that doesn't hold back while fighting, so, you know.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Well, if Mokou literally resurrects after dying then she should have type 4 immortality and resurrection

But now I say, KILLING a character who has mid-godly regeneration, and forcing him to have to resurrect would be regeneration negation

since one thing is to regenerate from being destroyed but not dying (something like Majin Buu) and another is to resurrect from having been literally killed

and Mokou was killed because she "resurrected" and not simply regenerated normally for normal body destruction

 

[Deidalius]

Well, if Mokou literally resurrects after dying then she should have type 4 immortality and resurrection

I agree

But now I say, KILLING a character who has mid-godly regeneration, and forcing him to have to resurrect would be regeneration negation

since one thing is to regenerate from being destroyed but not dying (something like Majin Buu) and another is to resurrect from having been literally killed

and Mokou was killed because she "resurrected" and not simply regenerated normally for normal body destruction

I disagree, if there was any sort of regen/immortality negation at play, Mokou wouldn't be able to revive in the first place.

Like, it seems more like, her regeneration works by resurrecting her rather than "They bypassed her regeneration, but her self resurrection revived her"

 

[Shmooply]

Will respond tommorow

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Well,I'll count that on the list of agrees, we have to wait if others come to give their opinion on this.

But another thing, Reimu already has regeneration negation mid-godly, and Youmu has immortality neg type 4 and even so, Mokou was able to continue regenerating/resurrecting, even though they attacked her without holding back, therefore I still think that Mokou should have resistance to regen neg mid-godly and immortality neg type 4

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Will respond tommorow

Better next year

 

[Deidalius]

Well,I'll count that on the list of agrees, we have to wait if others come to give their opinion on this.

But another thing, Reimu already has regeneration negation mid-godly, and Youmu has immortality neg type 4 and even so, Mokou was able to continue regenerating/resurrecting, even though they attacked her without holding back, therefore I still think that Mokou should have resistance to regen neg mid-godly and immortality neg type 4

Hmm, fair, but were they planning on permanently killing her? I don't know if they had those abilities at the time or if they were using them against Mokou, because the context of that fight was because Kaguya ordered them to beat up Mokou, and they already knew she was immortal, pretty sure, so they just killed her over and over again. But I don't remember them saying they wanted to permanently kill Mokou, I mean, the justification for Yukari being able to bypass hourai immortality is that she claimed she could give Mokou a near-death experience. If Yukari and the gang wanted to permanently kill Mokou, they would have done so with those abilities.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Alright, let me give my opinion on this

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Hmm, fair, but were they planning on permanently killing her? I don't know if they had those abilities at the time or if they were using them against Mokou, because the context of that fight was because Kaguya ordered them to beat up Mokou, and they already knew she was immortal, pretty sure, so they just killed her over and over again. But I don't remember them saying they wanted to permanently kill Mokou, I mean, the justification for Yukari being able to bypass hourai immortality is that she claimed she could give Mokou a near-death experience. If Yukari and the gang wanted to permanently kill Mokou, they would have done so with those abilities.

Youmu clearly said that she had used his full power (which would include his immortality neg type 4)

Also, as far as I know it has not been said that they contain these hax, only in the spell cards battles they would not use that hax, but here they were not
following those rules

And also, as I already said, Youmu used his full power and did not hold back.

 

[Deidalius]

Youmu clearly said that she had used his full power (which would include his immortality neg type 4)

Also, as far as I know it has not been said that they contain these hax, only in the spell cards battles they would not use that hax, but here they were not
following those rules

And also, as I already said, Youmu used his full power and did not hold back.

Ok, but if she has an ability to permanently kill Mokou, I don't think she would use it in this instance, even if she wasn't holding back. Using your power means using all of your strength and speed, it doesn't mean you're just going to try to kill the guy you're fighting with hax.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Well, I think "Possible resistance to regen/immortality neg" would be better in this case

Since I perfectly believe they could have used those hax against her, at the same time they could also not have used them

 

[Deidalius]

Fair enough. Though I still think Youmu, Reimu and Yukari could permanently kill Mokou, but they didn't want to do that.

 

[Quibster]

I'll need a bit to respond to this. Watching

 

[Quibster]

I just hope my way of speaking is understood because Google Translate is horrible.

Unrelated but I do encourage you to use DeepL (https://www.deepl.com/en/translator). Probably the highest quality translator to use that isn't Google Translate.

Anywho, responding in a couple of hours. There's a lot to break down.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Unrelated but I do encourage you to use DeepL (https://www.deepl.com/en/translator). Probably the highest quality translator to use that isn't Google Translate.

Anywho, responding in a couple of hours. There's a lot to break down.

Well I'll keep it in mind thanks lol

 

[Quibster]

During their battle in the extra stage, Mokou is killed several times and she reappears using a spell card called resurrection, which means that she actually died but was resurrected, her spell card is not called regeneration or healing, it is called resurrection and to resurrect you must die before

This means that the rules for spell cards that make battles do not lethal were broken, and the protagonists fought Mokou seriously to the point of killing her several times (despite her regeneration and immortality) while she was only resurrected.

This appears to be the main point of the argument and CRT as a whole, which I'll address first; I disagree with the CRT's OP. The interpretation of the term "resurrection" in this context seems overly literal and taken out of context. Terms like "resurrection" can be used in a more symbolic or thematic sense rather than a literal one. Mokou is themed after a Phoenix after all. But this is besides the main point.

This is easily debunked by the fact that Hourai Immortals are not bound by life and death. There is a blog on the verse page that also explains this; Mokou regenerates their body from the soul (this is sourced from the Marisa/Alice's Extra Stage scenario in Touhou 8), thus mid-godly Regen ("The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul", as defined by the site's ability page). Resurrection as an ability on-site would also not accurately encompass this any closer, let alone qualify in terms of site standards because Resurrection is treated as slower by default; and is not typically treated as combat applicable. In terms of indexing, Mid-godly regen and Type 5 Immortality makes more sense and just matches how it is explained in-game.

Mokou does not resurrect in the manner that this site defines Resurrection. From an indexing perspective, and in terms of how the site categorizes abilities, she Regenerates from her soul. The characters in Imperishable Night do not literally kill Mokou; rather, they are only destroying her physical vessel (body). The spell card "Resurrection" serves to facilitate her regeneration, but it does not literally match with this site's definition of resurrection. It's simply inaccurate as far as indexing goes in strict respect to this site.

Edit: There are numerous other points I could make, such as Mokou consistently incinerating herself to execute self-destructive attacks in the official fighting games, but I believe this covers the main and follow-up arguments made in the OP.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

This appears to be the main point of the argument and CRT as a whole, which I'll address first; I disagree with the CRT's OP. The interpretation of the term "resurrection" in this context seems overly literal and taken out of context. Terms like "resurrection" can be used in a more symbolic or thematic sense rather than a literal one. Mokou is themed after a Phoenix after all. But this is besides the main point.

This is easily debunked by the fact that Hourai Immortals are not bound by life and death. There is a blog on the verse page that also explains this; Mokou regenerates their body from the soul (this is sourced from the Marisa/Alice's Extra Stage scenario in Touhou 8), thus mid-godly Regen ("The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul", as defined by the site's ability page). Resurrection as an ability on-site would also not accurately encompass this any closer, let alone qualify in terms of site standards because Resurrection is treated as slower by default; and is not typically treated as combat applicable. In terms of indexing, Mid-godly regen and Type 5 Immortality makes more sense in terms of indexing and just matches how it is explained in-game.

Mokou does not resurrect in the manner that this site defines Resurrection. From an indexing perspective, and in terms of how the site categorizes abilities, she Regenerates from her soul. The characters in Imperishable Night do not literally kill Mokou; rather, they are only destroying her physical vessel (body). The spell card "Resurrection" serves to facilitate her regeneration, but it does not literally match with this site's definition of resurrection. It's simply inaccurate as far as indexing goes in strict respect to this site.

Edit: There are numerous other points I could make, such as Mokou consistently incinerating herself to execute self-destructive attacks in the official fighting games, but I believe this covers the main and follow-up arguments made in the OP.

Lol, it seems that at this point this CRT doesn't make sense

Although, there are still some things to rescue, the characters were attacking Mokou without holding back, so AP new justifications (which would now be, they were able of seriously fighting Mokou and destroying his body several times) are they valid? I feel like it makes more sense than the current justification of causing pain to Mokou

Also, Reimu has regeneration neg mid-godly, and she seriously attacked
Mokou and she was still able to regenerate, so Mokou "possible mid-godly regeneration neg resistance" is still valid?

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

BuMp

 

[Speedblitzer50]

B-u-m-p

 

[Sdjlakjh]

Agree but... can they beat Goku tho?

 

[Speedblitzer50]

(I guess I'll take that as an agree vote)

And yes, the most Touhou characters speedblitzes and outhaxes Goku lol

 

[Quibster]

Although, there are still some things to rescue, the characters were attacking Mokou without holding back, so AP's new justifications (which would now be, they were able of seriously fighting Mokou and destroying his body several times) are they valid? I feel like it makes more sense than the current justification of causing pain to Mokou

-New Attack potency justifications for the Touhou 8 cast of playable characters (They were able to kill Mokou multiple times in a serious fight)

-Attack potency old justification "inflicted so much pain onto Mokou to where she coldn't fight anymore despite her immortality" will be eliminated because the one I propose makes more sense, since I don't know what it has to do with having caused pain to Mokou and being immortal because even in spell cards normal battles the fighters still feel pain

The "pain" part is relevant because we learn about how, despite being Immortal, Mokou still has physical limits. In context, they all quite literally hurt Mokou to an extent that she reached her limit and became incapacitated from the pain and ran out of stamina;

During the Netherworld Team Scenario, Yuyuko points out that while Mokou may be immortal, her body still has limits. Mokou even acknowledges that she had reached her limit, saying "What the?! I'm reaching my limit, here... ", and "I can't die, but I can't keep fighting like this. My body hurts all over. " Youmu also implies that she wasn't holding back, while also suggesting that she had difficulty defeating her. This is backed by Youmu also suggesting that it was more-so because she was paired with Yuyuko that they had won together, rather than her own individual strength;

Yuyuko: "A human would obviously have limits to their strength, wouldn't they? You can try all you like, but you can't beat a phantom."

Youmu: "I don't think being phantoms had much to do with it, but it was rather that there were two of us..."

In the Magician Team Scenario, Alice pointed out that Mokou was running out of stamina, followed by Mokou confirming it; saying that they should stop fighting or she'll be unable to move from muscle pain the next day.

This is why the current AP feat is written the way it is. I don't see why it needs to be rephrased any differently.

Also, Reimu has regeneration neg mid-godly, and she seriously attacked
Mokou and she was still able to regenerate, so Mokou "possible mid-godly regeneration neg resistance" is still valid?

I can get behind a full rating. Reimu already has a Mid-godly regeneration neg feat with the Fortune Teller feat, and the feat naturally extends to other Youkai. Yet it isn't effective against on Hourai Immortals. I'd agree and be open to implementing the following additions to the Hourai Immortal pages:

For Mokou's Page: Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Repeatedly regenerated during her battle with Reimu Hakurei[1], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[2]) Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Other Hourai Immortals can regenerate from wounds inflicted by Reimu Hakurei[3], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[4])

For Kaguya, Eiren, and Chang'e: Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Other Hourai Immortals can regenerate from wounds inflicted by Reimu Hakurei[1], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[2])

-Yukari receives possible immortality negation type 4 of 2 layers, since she can make Mokou cross the boundary of life and death (Possible causing her to die forever, even tough Youmu couldn't negate his resurrection)

On this one, I'll just give actual scans instead of repeating what I said prior; Hourai Immortals are not bound by the cycle of life and death and are also freed from the cycle of reincarnation. The Hourai Elixir also removes the boundary of life and death to place the user in a state wherein they are neither alive nor dead (last scan sourced from Renko in Magical Astronomy, 2006). Because Mokou and other Hourai Immortals are completely absent from Life and Death conceptually, Yukari is unable able to make Hourai Immortals cross these boundaries. For these reasons, I disagree with this proposal.

Edit: Fixed some links

---

Also, please write me down as: "Disagree (Only agrees with mid-godly regeneration neg resistance)". My opinion may change over time, but this is where I currently stand.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Ok, I'll answer this in parts.

Edit: Damn, I was writing my answer but the page bugged and I lost everything I wrote, I hate my cell phone so much. So my response will take quite a very more while

 

[Speedblitzer50]

The "pain" part is relevant because we learn about how, despite being Immortal, Mokou still has physical limits. In context, they all quite literally hurt Mokou to an extent that she reached her limit and became incapacitated from the pain and ran out of stamina;

During the Netherworld Team Scenario, Yuyuko points out that while Mokou may be immortal, her body still has limits. Mokou even acknowledges that she had reached her limit, saying "What the?! I'm reaching my limit, here... ", and "I can't die, but I can't keep fighting like this. My body hurts all over. " Youmu also implies that she wasn't holding back, while also suggesting that she had difficulty defeating her. This is backed by Youmu also suggesting that it was more-so because she was paired with Yuyuko that they had won together, rather than her own individual strength;

Yuyuko: "A human would obviously have limits to their strength, wouldn't they? You can try all you like, but you can't beat a phantom."

Youmu: "I don't think being phantoms had much to do with it, but it was rather that there were two of us..."

In the Magician Team Scenario, Alice pointed out that Mokou was running out of stamina, followed by Mokou confirming it; saying that they should stop fighting or she'll be unable to move from muscle pain the next day.

This is why the current AP feat is written the way it is. I don't see why it needs to be rephrased any differently.

The justification is that they caused pain to Mokou, to the point that making her reach his limits and that she could not continue fighting in a serious fight

But, in normal spell card battles the characters still feel pain and fatigue, just look at Ichirin, she was injured and
sore after a battle that's not supposed to be lethal

And as is already known, battles that follow the spell card rules cannot be used for scale, and although the Mokou battle was serious, a justification like the having caused pain to her doesn't seem very good to me, I even think something like "They destroyed his body several times in a serious fight" is better

I can get behind a full rating. Reimu already has a Mid-godly regeneration neg feat with the Fortune Teller feat, and the feat naturally extends to other Youkai. Yet it isn't effective against on Hourai Immortals. I'd agree and be open to implementing the following additions to the Hourai Immortal pages:

For Mokou's Page: Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Repeatedly regenerated during her battle with Reimu Hakurei[1], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[2]) Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Other Hourai Immortals can regenerate from wounds inflicted by Reimu Hakurei[3], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[4])

For Kaguya, Eiren, and Chang'e: Resistance to Regeneration Negation (Mid-Godly; Other Hourai Immortals can regenerate from wounds inflicted by Reimu Hakurei[1], in spite of her ability to kill youkai[2])

Looks fine

On this one, I'll just give actual scans instead of repeating what I said prior; Hourai Immortals are not bound by the cycle of life and death and are also freed from the cycle of reincarnation. The Hourai Elixir also removes the boundary of life and death to place the user in a state wherein they are neither alive nor dead (last scan sourced from Renko in Magical Astronomy, 2006). Because Mokou and other Hourai Immortals are completely absent from Life and Death conceptually, Yukari is unable able to make Hourai Immortals cross these boundaries. For these reasons, I disagree with this proposal.

Yukari already has immortality and regen neg on her profile for being able to make Mokou cross these boundaries despite everything you said, I was just proposing that she have immortality neg type 4 of 2 layers lol, but if Mokou's literal "resurrection" is no longer valid then this no longer matters


and well, i will count you disagree voute

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump