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Touhou: Into the Multiverse

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No worries we just have to show evidence to the staff that this buff is legit- and Onsokuno already has the evidence and justifications all in the opening post so we just need to wait for some more staff
 
KingPin0422 said:
Exactly one staff member has provided input. Even if multiple experts support the upgrade, we can't apply it with just one thread moderator basically saying "sure, why not."

Anyway, with the quotes given the sources I asked for, I do lean more strongly towards favoring an upgrade. Regarding Einel's concerns about assuming that string theory + brane cosmology automatically equals 10-D by default: as I showed in my previous post, string theories require a minimum of six extra dimensions to make sense. Brane cosmology, while closely related to the subject of string theory, clearly does not have such a limitation, given that brane models with only one large extra dimension exist. I can understand the point of "well, fiction's principles frequently ignore how things would actually work in the real world," but I'm of the opinion that we should always require evidence of that being the case, and that just because some elements of real-life physics are ignored, that doesn't mean we can just dismiss all of it.
Click to expand...
@Antvasima
 
The string theory is not as explicit as I'd like, it never actually mentions but it is heavily implied, so I guess I'm fine with it.

However I saw no reason to why the dream world would scale above the 10D stuff. Just because a spiritual world is different doesn't mean that it posses some kind of ontological transcendence over the physical/material world or something.
 
Ogbunabali said:
However I saw no reason to why the dream world would scale above the 10D stuff. Just because a spiritual world is different doesn't mean that it posses some kind of ontological transcendence over the physical/material world or something.
Click to expand...
Not only it is different, it has shown that it can contain the 10D Brane as a finite portion of it, the Dream World has been stated to be on a higher layer of reality, and a "world" beyond. The higher layer can confine the lower layer world as a subset of itself.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Not only it is different, it has shown that it can contain the 10D Brane as a finite portion of it, the Dream World has been stated to be on a higher layer of reality, and a "world" beyond. The higher layer can confine the lower layer world as a subset of itself.
Click to expand...
Scans of this?
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
"How could it be a finite part of it? Doremy could be creating the dreams and erased it the same time in Violet Detector! The Dream World can contain the Netherworld, but it doesn't mean it's only a finite part of it since Doremy can possibly be recreating and destroying the dreams."

I'm not surprised if someone does ask this, btw.

The answer to your question is that the Dream World contain the location of the dream that are dreamed by the dream dwellers (Ex: Yuyuko's Netherworld, Suwako's Shrine, Sagume's Lunar Capital, etc.), and the location stays there even if the dream dwellers are gone (defeated), as shown on the video above, around 2:55 where Kanako teams up with Yuyuko, we see that Yuyuko is decimated while the Netherworld still exist, Kanako, to my knowledge has never been to the Netherworld and thus shouldn't be able to dream the Netherworld. The Netherworld should also be destroyed along with Yuyuko when she got decimated (defeated), this signify that the Netherworld is an actual location in the Dream World. This further supported by people meeting Sumireko on their dreams even though they don't normally met her becacuse Sumireko is lost on the Dream World. Marisa here is of course trying to say that Sumireko shouldn't appear in dreams where the person that's dreaming it doesn't even know her.


There's also this statement in Doremy's omake.txt, stating that dreams are connected at the deepest level, you can visit places you never seen, signifying that the location in the Dream Worlds are actual location that's located somewhere on the Dream World.

wSw8GO4.png


Now, let's continue.

The Netherworld is an Otherworld, which means that it's a Brane World, that's embedded on...a world that exist beyond the universe (The Mental Plane), and the Netherworld is only a finite portion of the Dream World. Since everything has a Dream version of them, the Netherworld (surprisingly) has a Dream version of the world, therefore the Dream World contain enough space to have the Dream Netherworld. And the Dream World was shown to still be quite spacious even when containing that.
Click to expand...
It's quite long, but it's on the Dream World part, the Otherworld is on the physical layer of reality.
 
Ogbunabali said:
I'd like scans of the things stated here. And I don't see how it follows just because it has a single world in it, it is somehow above all the 10D structure.
Click to expand...
The 10D structure is the Otherworld, the Physical Layer scales because Otherworld exist on the Physical Layer. Also what scan?
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
The 10D structure is the Otherworld, the Physical Layer scales because Otherworld exist on the Physical Layer. Also what scan?
Click to expand...
For everything stated. There is only one scan in the quote you provided and it doesn't have much to do with anything.

Also in the quote you posted it just says that the Netherworld, which is just a single world in the Otherworld, is inside the dream world, not the whole Otherworld. So you'd have to provide scans for that as well.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Also in the quote you posted it just says that the Netherworld, which is just a single world in the Otherworld, is inside the dream world, not the whole Otherworld. So you'd have to provide scans for that as well.
Click to expand...
Uh, the Netherworld is an Otherworld, cause it's a literally a world other than us.
Ogbunabali said:
For everything stated. There is only one scan in the quote you provided and it doesn't have much to do with anything.
Click to expand...
There's also a video on it...it's on the Dream World section.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Scans?
Click to expand...
The "Otherworlds (ikai)" are anything "outside (igai)" the Moon and the Earth."
Click to expand...

Otherworld are anything outside the Moon and the Earth, which is what the Netherworld is.

Ogbunabali said:
The video is just a game battle from what I saw. If there is something relevant in it, then just post those individual parts.
Click to expand...
OnsokunoSonic said:
So, we know that the Dream World contain an infinite sized structure, called the Netherworld as a finite part of it. The Netherworld is stated to be larger by Akyuu and the Ministry of Right and Wrong than the infinite sized hell.
Click to expand...

You can also check the video, around 2:55, It's quite hard for me to post scans because I'm currently outside.
 
Shmooply said:
I am here to save the daaaay~
unknown.png

From this interview with ZUN:

Click to expand...
Alright. This shows an Otherworld is a single universe, going by the scan. I still fail to see how it follows that the dream world is above the whole 10D multiverse.

OnsokunoSonic said:
Otherworld are anything outside the Moon and the Earth, which is what the Netherworld is.
Click to expand...
Also I'd need scan that shows that Netherworld = Otherworld as well.

OnsokunoSonic said:
You can also check the video, around 2:55, It's quite hard for me to post scans because I'm currently outside.
Click to expand...
I didn't see anything in 2:55, just more of the boss battle. You can provide scans of the video when you're free.

It containing the Netherworld is fine and all. But, again, I'd need a scan of what the Netherworld is.
 
Just a quick clarification: the OP uses the Hunting Horrors as an example of a character who gets a high tier simply for being native to a higher world, but as some people behind the Cthulhu Mythos revision project found out, they actually have a lot of counterevidence against being High 1-A and lack any other notable feats, so they will become Unknown when the next CM revision thread drops.

I also have some issues with some of the scaling laid out in the OP, but I'll go over that later; I just wanted to get that out of the way first.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Alright. This shows an Otherworld is a single universe, going by the scan. I still fail to see how it follows that the dream world is above the whole 10D multiverse.


Also I'd need scan that shows that Netherworld = Otherworld as well.


I didn't see anything in 2:55, just more of the boss battle. You can provide scans of the video when you're free.

It containing the Netherworld is fine and all. But, again, I'd need a scan of what the Netherworld is.
Click to expand...
Here is a scan from Strange creators of outer world specifically the second case file of the gensokyo geography section. This is in reference to the netherworld sorry if it's super long. Not giving my input as of yet just here to clarify some stuff.
ひたすら長い階段を上っていくステージ。冥界にあるお屋敷・白玉楼へと続く階段での戦いです。庭師の妖夢が、この場所についていろいろ教えてくれます。霊夢との会話では、
霊夢「まさかと思ったけどここって……」
妖夢「昔は生きていた者が住む処よ」
また対魔理沙との会話で妖夢は以下のように語っています。
妖夢「間がここ白玉楼に来ることはそれ自体が死のはずなのよ」
ということで、Stage5の階段はすでに白玉楼の敷地内であり、また冥界ということですね。Stage4で越えてきた結界の向こう側が冥界となっているわけですが、では結界の向こう側は「どこ」なのか。幻想郷なのか、幻想郷ではないのか。

ここで冥界について、というよりも異界について補足したいと思います。

「紅魔郷」から検討を進めているのでまだ2作品目ではありますが、Windows版の東方Projectとして初めて「異界」に来ました。ここで言う異界とは、普段われわれ人間が暮らしている世界とはなんらかの形で隔絶された場所を指します。遠い宇宙や深海、秘境などのように物理的に行くのが困難な場所ということではなく、観念的、概念的、呪術的になんらかの行き来に対する障害がある場所ということですね。もちろん幻想郷も異界の一つです。その他の異界は幻想郷と接点があるものの、幻想郷に含まれている、内部にある異界というわけではないので、「冥界が幻想郷の中にある」というのは間違いです。東方Projectの作品中では、異界同士は行き来が頻繁もしくは簡単な印象があります。あくまで外の世界と比べるとではありますが。

そして、ここまでをまとめた地図を図6とします。		A stage where we single-mindedly head up a long set of stairs. A fight on the continuous staircase that leads to a residence in the Netherworld — Hakugyokurou. The gardener Youmu tells a lot about this place. In her conversation with Reimu:
Reimu "Don't tell me this place..."
Youmu "This is the place where the used-to-be-living reside."
In her conversation with Marisa, Youmu also says the following:
Youmu "For a human to have come all the way to Hakugyokurou, death is the only possible explanation."
So, the stairs of Stage 5 are already within Hakugyokurou grounds, in other words, in the Netherworld. We crossed the border to enter the Netherworld in Stage 4, but "where" is this side of the border? Is it Gensokyo or not?

Here let me elaborate a bit regarding the Netherworld, or rather regarding separate realms.

It's only been 2 games since EoSD, but this is the first "separate realm" we go to in the Windows era of the Touhou Project. A separate realm here is a world that is isolated, in any form, from the world we normal humans live in. It does not refer to places that are physically hard to reach, like deep space, the deep sea, or uncharted lands; but places where ideological, conceptual, or magical obstacles prevent entry and exit. Naturally, Gensokyo itself is also a separate realm. Other realms are also connected to Gensokyo, but that does not mean that Gensokyo is a part of them, or that they are a part of Gensokyo, therefore "the Netherworld is a part of Gensokyo" is a false statement. In Touhou Project works, there is the impression that people of different realms come and go frequently, perhaps even easily. At least compared to the Outside World.

With this, our map so far would look like that in figure 6.
 
Mobi2 said:
Here is a scan from Strange creators of outer world specifically the second case file of the gensokyo geography section. This is in reference to the netherworld sorry if it's super long. Not giving my input as of yet just here to clarify some stuff.
ひたすら長い階段を上っていくステージ。冥界にあるお屋敷・白玉楼へと続く階段での戦いです。庭師の妖夢が、この場所についていろいろ教えてくれます。霊夢との会話では、
霊夢「まさかと思ったけどここって……」
妖夢「昔は生きていた者が住む処よ」
また対魔理沙との会話で妖夢は以下のように語っています。
妖夢「間がここ白玉楼に来ることはそれ自体が死のはずなのよ」
ということで、Stage5の階段はすでに白玉楼の敷地内であり、また冥界ということですね。Stage4で越えてきた結界の向こう側が冥界となっているわけですが、では結界の向こう側は「どこ」なのか。幻想郷なのか、幻想郷ではないのか。

ここで冥界について、というよりも異界について補足したいと思います。

「紅魔郷」から検討を進めているのでまだ2作品目ではありますが、Windows版の東方Projectとして初めて「異界」に来ました。ここで言う異界とは、普段われわれ人間が暮らしている世界とはなんらかの形で隔絶された場所を指します。遠い宇宙や深海、秘境などのように物理的に行くのが困難な場所ということではなく、観念的、概念的、呪術的になんらかの行き来に対する障害がある場所ということですね。もちろん幻想郷も異界の一つです。その他の異界は幻想郷と接点があるものの、幻想郷に含まれている、内部にある異界というわけではないので、「冥界が幻想郷の中にある」というのは間違いです。東方Projectの作品中では、異界同士は行き来が頻繁もしくは簡単な印象があります。あくまで外の世界と比べるとではありますが。

そして、ここまでをまとめた地図を図6とします。		A stage where we single-mindedly head up a long set of stairs. A fight on the continuous staircase that leads to a residence in the Netherworld — Hakugyokurou. The gardener Youmu tells a lot about this place. In her conversation with Reimu:
Reimu "Don't tell me this place..."
Youmu "This is the place where the used-to-be-living reside."
In her conversation with Marisa, Youmu also says the following:
Youmu "For a human to have come all the way to Hakugyokurou, death is the only possible explanation."
So, the stairs of Stage 5 are already within Hakugyokurou grounds, in other words, in the Netherworld. We crossed the border to enter the Netherworld in Stage 4, but "where" is this side of the border? Is it Gensokyo or not?

Here let me elaborate a bit regarding the Netherworld, or rather regarding separate realms.

It's only been 2 games since EoSD, but this is the first "separate realm" we go to in the Windows era of the Touhou Project. A separate realm here is a world that is isolated, in any form, from the world we normal humans live in. It does not refer to places that are physically hard to reach, like deep space, the deep sea, or uncharted lands; but places where ideological, conceptual, or magical obstacles prevent entry and exit. Naturally, Gensokyo itself is also a separate realm. Other realms are also connected to Gensokyo, but that does not mean that Gensokyo is a part of them, or that they are a part of Gensokyo, therefore "the Netherworld is a part of Gensokyo" is a false statement. In Touhou Project works, there is the impression that people of different realms come and go frequently, perhaps even easily. At least compared to the Outside World.

With this, our map so far would look like that in figure 6.
Click to expand...
Mobi2 said:
Click to expand...

Thank you.

So going by this the Netherworld is treated functionally as different universe. In which case I'd be fine with either tier 2 or Low 1-C dream world. But our standards for which one it should be are kind of a mess right now so you should ask Ultima for this specifically. However, I'd personally be fine with Low 1-C in this case.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Thank you.

So going by this the Netherworld is treated functionally as different universe. In which case I'd be fine with either tier 2 or Low 1-C dream world. But our standards for which one it should be are kind of a mess right now so you should ask Ultima for this specifically. However, I'd personally be fine with Low 1-C in this case.
Click to expand...
Thanks. But the thing is, the Otherworld/Netherworld is the Brane World we talked about in the OP. So the Otherworld's nature should be H1-C.
 
It doesn't matter if Touhou's world doesn't show "ontological superiority" or "qualitative superiority" or infinitely ascending.

Onsokuno already stated in the OP that Brane Theory and String Theory are already legit H1-C ratings anyways.

The point of this thread is that basically Touhou mentions String and Brane theory- thus its H1-C. This whole "qualitatively superiority" talk is kind of derailing I must admit, since the Wiki's standards say that String and Brane theory is enough to qualify for H1-C.

Again, its similar to TTGL's cosmology. I cannot stress that enough.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Thanks. But the thing is, the Otherworld is the Brane World we talked about in the OP. So the Otherworld's nature should be H1-C.
Click to expand...
Well, no.

According to the scans provided, an Otherworld is an n-brane (at face value a 3-brane, meaning 3 dimensional). While the whole bulk (the membrane in which the branes {universes} are located), i.e. the whole multiversal structure, in its totality would be High 1-C.

A single brane, and subsequently another world/brane that exists outside of it, would be treated as a Low 2-C structure, unless of course there's additional context for us to reasonably assume they're somehow higher/lower.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
It doesn't matter if Touhou's world doesn't show "ontological superiority" or "qualitative superiority" or infinitely ascending.

Onsokuno already stated in the OP that Brane Theory and String Theory are already legit H1-C ratings anyways.

The point of this thread is that basically Touhou mentions String and Brane theory- thus its H1-C. This whole "qualitatively superiority" talk is kind of derailing I must admit, since the Wiki's standards say that String and Brane theory is enough to qualify for H1-C.

Again, its similar to TTGL's cosmology. I cannot stress that enough.
Click to expand...
We're not discussing whether the multiverse is High 1-C or not, but whether the dream world scales above it.
 
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