Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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String/brane theory, right? I personally think that's the entire physical layer and not any individual part of it.
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Touhou General Discussion Thread 2: 17.5 Edition.
- Thread starter Junkoposter
- Start date
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Oh also I'm 99% sure this gives plothax resistance to all youkai because in Gensokyo they became 'unbound' by the thoughts and imagination of outside world humans.
ÆONS
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Infinitely how? If its just infinite—ie. countably infinite—then it wouldn't be 5 or 6-D/Low 1-C just a far higher level of 4-D/Low 2-C. They'd still be exceptionally powerful in their tier, just not higher-dimensional. If it's uncountably infinite then it would be true.
In the case of the third part, Tier 1 (Low 1-C: 5-D) would probably be valid IMO.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Idk, the tiering page just says 'higher level of infinity', so Idk why having, well, a level of infinity above L2-C wouldn't be L1-C.
plus I'm pretty sure we already managed to convince at least one staff on 5D DW so 6D outside world is still on the table
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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All the high tiers. Doremy dream scaling is a bitch. And because she's weak as shit by high tier standards, most characters massively upscale from her, so they'll be well above baseline 1-C.
ÆONS
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I don't 100% understand either but I think that a higher-dimensional character would be such that they view even an infinite lower-dimensional character as insignificant to their being. Like comparing a finite 3-D character to an infinite 2-D character. Since the latter has no mass or volume even being infinitely large in terms of 2 dimensions—so, say, X: Infinity, Y: Infinity, and Z: 0—they wouldn't even exist from the perspective of a 3-D being.
So a being (or, in this case, a location) that is simply infinitely larger than a 4-D construct wouldn't really be 5-D or higher-dimensional since there's still no evidence of them yielding any value in a 5-D sense unless they are uncountably infinitely larger (which would yield a value in a five-dimensional sense although they'd still be kind of small). I hope I am correct about this, feel free to critique my understanding.
I do think that Low 1-C (5-D, possibly 6-D depending on interpretation) may be valid.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Ehhhhh, I still don't get what exactly qualifies for that difference besides R > F difference. Like, there's no way in hell that every tier 1 verse has R > F difference; There's gotta be at least a few examples where an infinite size difference is valid on its own, right?
I do kinda get your point though; I just wanna go for it even it'll likely be rejected, because if it does we can still argue for 5D. But there's still that 1% that 7D goes through.
Still, even if the first two layers of transcendence don't go through, I fail to see how Low 1-C could possibly be argued against. 3 statements of infinite size difference, and 7 clear cut examples of R > F difference.
Obviously I'm not gonna jump straight into tier 1, since I think it's better if we push closer to it over time by going for 2-C/2-B first. Low 2-C to anything tier 1 is a jump less people are gonna be on board with.
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ÆONS
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Ehhhhhhhhhh...
It doesn't convince me.
What you are mentioning is just infinite expansion, but that doesn't relates directly with infinite transcendence. Both are pretty much different concepts.
It's infinitely larger than Gensokyo, ok, but it's just that, expansion. It's also even worst because each world is the same brane world between each other, so making one more transcendent than other doesn't make any sense.
The Dream World is another stuff regarding other type of argument for cosmology, so I will not talk about that.
But the Outside World transcending all of this doesn't make any sense too. Saying that "it views all Touhou canon as fiction" and everything related to that it's mostly a metacommentary rather than an actual statement of transcendence. And it's not for the sake of downballing, but because contextually speaking and logically that generates so much contradictions. If we assume that then we are ignoring a lot of stuff that shows the opposite such as 1) Gensokyo being part of the Outside World that was separated to create another brane world. This not only shows how Gensokyo = Outside World, but also, it's illogical that suddenly Yukari would make the world a plane below the original one and will require more proofs and arguments. 2) The existence of the Great Hakurei Barrier and Sumireko going to destroy it. The existence of the barrier clearly shows how both realities are quite in the same plane instead of one transcending each other, and Sumireko shouldn't really require to gain more power to break it if she saw it as fiction (since she is from the Outside World), nor she would be affected by that. 3) If we are going to assume that, then it's not only Gensokyo and Otherworlds, but everything, literally, everything in the series would be just fiction for the Outside World, even the Lunar Capital and the Gods themselves, which again, contradicts basically everything, such as for example, the gods creating all. And ironically, this would mean that no one is going to scale to that, because everyone will be just a plane character in comparison and none of the abilities showed really affected the Outside World. So the real god tier would be... well... random people there that no one even know at all ._.XD. That, alongside I don't really believe the reality fiction comparison proves anything at all, are why I think the arguments aren't solid at all.
It doesn't convince me.
What you are mentioning is just infinite expansion, but that doesn't relates directly with infinite transcendence. Both are pretty much different concepts.
It's infinitely larger than Gensokyo, ok, but it's just that, expansion. It's also even worst because each world is the same brane world between each other, so making one more transcendent than other doesn't make any sense.
The Dream World is another stuff regarding other type of argument for cosmology, so I will not talk about that.
But the Outside World transcending all of this doesn't make any sense too. Saying that "it views all Touhou canon as fiction" and everything related to that it's mostly a metacommentary rather than an actual statement of transcendence. And it's not for the sake of downballing, but because contextually speaking and logically that generates so much contradictions. If we assume that then we are ignoring a lot of stuff that shows the opposite such as 1) Gensokyo being part of the Outside World that was separated to create another brane world. This not only shows how Gensokyo = Outside World, but also, it's illogical that suddenly Yukari would make the world a plane below the original one and will require more proofs and arguments. 2) The existence of the Great Hakurei Barrier and Sumireko going to destroy it. The existence of the barrier clearly shows how both realities are quite in the same plane instead of one transcending each other, and Sumireko shouldn't really require to gain more power to break it if she saw it as fiction (since she is from the Outside World), nor she would be affected by that. 3) If we are going to assume that, then it's not only Gensokyo and Otherworlds, but everything, literally, everything in the series would be just fiction for the Outside World, even the Lunar Capital and the Gods themselves, which again, contradicts basically everything, such as for example, the gods creating all. And ironically, this would mean that no one is going to scale to that, because everyone will be just a plane character in comparison and none of the abilities showed really affected the Outside World. So the real god tier would be... well... random people there that no one even know at all ._.XD. That, alongside I don't really believe the reality fiction comparison proves anything at all, are why I think the arguments aren't solid at all.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Yeah ig, though they aren't the same brane, Otherworlds are all different brane worlds.
It's hard to argue it as meta-commentary when this is literally just true in-verse. The R > F difference is all but confirmed by Renko and Maribel, whose research not only shows that Gensokyo and its denizens are 'invisible' to the outside world, but infinitely small as well (and no, this can't just be referring to the outside world having an infinite extent, because it's also stated to be far smaller than Amitabha, whose size is finite). Also, Yukari making a realm that is fictional or lower dimensional is far from questionable when PMiSS makes it very clear that that is well within her capabilities. Also, the idea that Gensokyo was just spatially separated from the outside world raises its own problems, like how Gensokyo can be a 4D brane world when it was just a 3D section of space 'separated' from the outside world (and not even separated spatially or temporally, since the 'space' that Gensokyo once occupied still exists in the outside world).
Also, I wouldn't even argue that Yukari was responsible for Gensokyo becoming fictional, as it was fading from the collective belief of humanity well before the barrier was established; The barrier was made in response to Gensokyo already becoming 'fiction' on its own.
That's not really how any of this works. If the barrier were just a matter of physical separation, then yeah, I could see your point, but it is quite literally the conceptual barrier between fantasy and reality. Also, Sumireko being from the outside world doesn't mean she inherently has infinite power above Gensokyo; She occupies a higher-dimensional space, yes, but that doesn't mean she has higher-dimensional AP as well.
No, because the gods created everything before Gensokyo and everything related became fictional, and these characters still retain their AP; They just live in a lower-dimensional space now. A person's AP doesn't change depending on what dimension they occupy; A Low 2-C character still has Low 2-C AP even if they immerse themselves into a lower dimension. Also lmao about no abilities affecting the outside world, WaHH shows that it exists in dreams and Doremy's whole thing is ******* with dreams. Also, y'know, Yukari's 'undermine all of reality' stuff and the primordial gods creating everything at the beginning of reality.
And again, just because a character lives in a higher dimension doesn't mean their AP scales automatically. I mean, when an outside world denizen gets sent to Gensokyo, they're actively in danger from wild youkai.
You have to keep in mind that the fantasy aspects of Touhou are still technically 'real'; They just no longer exist in the outside world (for the most part). Nothing about them or their powers fundamentally change.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Honestly the stuff about regular humans being 'above' Gensokyo and primordial gods being 'weaker' post-Gensokyo separation can be shot down by this section in the tiering FAQ.
ÆONS
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I still don't know much about 10-D Touhou btw. Can you give me a sort of explanation about it?
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Being infinitely superior doesn't mean tier 1 shit, you need uncountable infinity to be tier 1, where if you do infinite^infinite you won't reach the higher world no matter what because they're transcendence.
Girl said let me just spoil everything we gonna do, calm down brah. Also, keep yo tone down.
Girl said let me just spoil everything we gonna do, calm down brah. Also, keep yo tone down.
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It doesn't exist, because 10D Touhou would require the verse officially stating the verse does contain 10D structure which it doesn't. For now.
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I know y'all have trust issue with me because I troll so much Lmao.
ÆONS
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Three messages in a row oh my. Also maybe don't troll so much and give me some ideas about 10-D Touhou?
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ÆONS
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Thanks.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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String theory provides at minimum an additional 6 space-time dimensions, which are too small to ever be tier 1 here, BUT when paired with brane theory, said extra dimensions become extra large and thus tier 1. Touhou confirms brane theory pretty consistently, and the far future confirms the existence of the theory of everything, one of the main components of which is string theory. So that's where 10D comes from.
I don't care? This isn't the ******* MCU, I doubt people are gonna care about spoilers. Like, what's the worst that can happen?
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I didn't ask for u to care. Getting debunked.
ÆONS
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Can you like... not?
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Okay and
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Damn I guess all the Touhou downplayers are gonna be flooding in here any second now and start telling me what a ******* dumbass I am, how could I have not seen this coming?
Really though, all that's happening is that people find it questionable. And I'm explaining why I think it still works. Which if I'm being honest, is a good thing? Makes sure that the concept is solid, and gets people on my side before the revision itself (and if it turns out I'm wrong, then that saves me the trouble of having to redo my tier 1 CRT from scratch :v)
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Cease or getting reported
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I am that downplayer, what you gonna do now bro?
I do agree with tier 1 Touhou, but just being stated infinite difference isn't gonna cut it, and I think someone has explain it here? You can go ask some tier 1 expert like DT or Agnaa.
Ok and
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Eh, it's fine if it doesn't work out, the outside world is undeniably at least low 1-C in my eyes and that's all that matters for now. I guarantee there's some massive shit I overlooked that makes 1-C valid though, I mean the things I just mentioned above were things I discovered just today.
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I do believe the outside world argument can work out...I hope. Nah, I don't think there's anything you overlooked that is translated.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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My man
You have no idea just how ******* much untranslated 2hu content there really is.
The transcripts for the Touhou Station streams would be several hundred pages at minimum.
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That's why I said the translated one, genius.
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From the record, and from the statements I remember, the thing of being "invisible" isn't referring to being literal fiction, but instead, is an allegory to the quantum mechanics and Schrodinger's Cat theory. Unless you are talking about another statement I don't know (which I would like you post here), there's nothing talking about metanarrative nor fiction equivalency, but instead, quantum mechanics.
She can affect the fiction boundary, yes, but that's not the same as making a whole other realm being 2D in comparison to the real one. That's like an association fallacy, plus, as I said, the "fiction" in-verse isn't referring about being literally lower than the reality, but it's just a separated concept from the real world. I'm not saying that Gensokyo and the Outside World are spatio-temporally unified. What I'm saying is that both are in the same plane of existence. To make it more clear, they are in the same multiverse, and all the Otherworlds are too. So saying that somehow the Outside World transcends everything just because of some assumptions of reality/fiction doesn't makes sense at all.
Ok... and how does that somehow affects anything at all? And that's another association fallacy, because she wasn't fading because of being lower-dimensional or anything about that, but instead, because as a Youkai, she is born from the belief of people and from the aspect/phenomena she embodies, once more, nothing related to any meta-fiction statement and such. In fact, the mere existence of Youkai in the Outside World before and now makes even more clear how they all are in the same plane.
I already explained this. They aren't physically in the same place, but instead they are in the same level of reality, as basically everything in the series shows. Being a conceptual barrier doesn't supports anything, as basically every separation between worlds in the series are basically that. And I can get the argument for Sumireko, but claiming that a character like her would gain somehow more dimensionality than literally the god tier of the verse... yeah, doesn't convince me.
My issue is that how and why basically the creators of everything and the ones who predates existence and are beyond dualities would be lower-dimensional, towards something they have created...? Don't you see the huge problems this makes? Really? And I know there are characters that can affect these planes... and that's basically what proves my point, because they can do so since they are all in the same level after all.
I know, but the thing is that you should prove that somehow all Youkai has Higher-Dimensional Manipulation or something like that, which is impossible since nothing ever showed that. And remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Well ironically you have indirectly said I'm right, because they are fiction, yes, for the Outside World. But in fact, they are still real, just existing in another world. And no that doesn't translate to that world being lower-dimensional in comparison to the "real" one. Saying so like... completely contradicts the whole lore regarding the creation of Gensokyo.
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Just like in the series, Hecatia is spitting facts 
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Just to clarify: I agree with tier 1 Touhou, but the arguments regarding the Outside World doesn't seems to me convincing enough to be used.
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True true.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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No, the statement itself doesn't make any mention of quantum mechanics or string theory, plus there's still the 'infinitely small' statement and stuff about Gensokyo being a quantum world (ie; infinitesimal). At bare minimum there's an infinite size difference between Gensokyo and the outside world that can't be handwaved away with the infinite expansion stuff, and all the R > F stuff supports that.
She can't create one from scratch, but she can immerse pre-existing things into fiction. Yes, they are in the same multiverse, but that doesn't make R > F difference impossible; I mean, brane worlds can vary in dimensionality yet still be a part of a singular, larger multiverse.
I should probably clarify that the outside world doesn't transcend literally everything; Just the settings and events of Touhou as they appear in canon content (minus itself ofc). It's still a part of a much larger 10-D multiverse that exists in the 'real' world, as it was proven to exist in Renko and Maribel's time.
No, the disappearance of youkai doesn't mean they were lower dimensional, they're still 3D entities just like humans. Like, you don't seem to understand that the dimensionality of a cosmology is totally disjointed from the dimensionality of the people who live in that cosmology; Youkai were 3D in the outside world, and they're still 3D in Gensokyo. My point is that the physical space of Gensokyo is lower-dimensional (albeit still 4D, letting it support the existence of 3D beings). Anything to do with HDE or LDE means nothing here.
Sumireko wouldn't get HDE. She lives in a 7D space, so what? I live in a 4D space and that means I get jack shit. I mean, Gensokyo is 4D, so you wanna give everyone there HDE too? The characters themselves need to have proof of higher-dimensionality in order for your point to make sense, but the 'space' they occupy means nothing in that regard. And if the standards on HDE are so loose that just existing in a 4D or higher location gives you HDE, then that's ******* stupid and I should make a thread about it.
They are not lower-dimensional. They have the same dimensions as everyone else
Sounding like a broken record at this point but... Every living thing in Touhou, unless otherwise specified, is 3D. Humans are 3D and youkai are 3D and both can interact with each other just find regardless of whether they're in a 4D plane or 7D plane or infinite-D plane.
That's how dimensional differences work. All layers are technically 'real', the higher layers just perceive them as fiction or otherwise infinitesimal. Nothing is literally fictional when it comes to layers like this.
Honestly a lot of your arguments are based on the idea that I'm making this upgrade based on characters just being able to exist in the outside world, which isn't the case. Where people do or don't live in the broader cosmology has nothing to do with my scaling, nobody's getting HDE, and everybody is still 3D; They just have 1-C or higher AP.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'm interested to hear your interpretation then.
Seems like literally everyone who believes in tier 1 Touhou has their own very different ideas on what that tier 1 actually looks like, which is kinda interesting.
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First off all, that statement is literally is on the uhh what should I call it, the prologue? Which reeks hyperbole. Secondly being infinitely superior doesn't mean R>F, thirdly. The "Gensokyo is fiction" is...in a way true, but not in a sense that it's an R>F, you can ask DT or sum on this stuff. What you called an R>F is...not an R>F, since what they're trying to say is that old/mythical things such as yokai aren't capable of existing anymore in the outside world due to the inhabitants of the outside world capable of seeing the truth with SCIENCE. It's not LITERALLY fiction, not an R>F difference, no no not in the slightest, they're forgotten to the point that they're "fiction" a.k.a not real a.k.a not believable a.k.a I don't believe in stupid myth, and not in the R>F sense where there's an uncountable infinity difference.
Different context.
If Renko or Maribel, state that Gensokyo is infinitely small, then that person gotta have HDE, I don't think you get these kinda stuff Mokou.
Creating a time space doesn't equal HDE. Wrong equivalency.
@Guardian_Doge what did you do to Mokou.
What you said...is in a way true and in a way not. But, if it's not literally fictional, then it's not a R>F difference lol, if it's not literally fiction than a stickman I draw can harm me lmao.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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The "prologue" isn't just hype text, it's literally quoting an in-universe piece of research on the topic from Renko and Maribel; "So read the opening of the pair's self-published magazine". I know infinite size difference isn't what makes for R > F difference, which is where, y'know, the actual statements of R > F difference come into play. Also it's hard to believe the "not literally fiction" stuff when SCoOW is like. really ******* blatant about it being literal fiction to the outside world? It's literally just games and manga to them? Did you just skip over the entire origin of this argument?
What?
No, they don't. Where the hell are you getting this from? The comparison is between Gensokyo and the outside world; Not the individuals living in these worlds. It is the locations, and not the people, that are the basis of the upgrades.
This was in response to Hecatia's point about how it was supposedly stupid that a creator of something could have lower dimensionality than something they created. My point was to demonstrate how that point doesn't make any sense. I know creating space-time doesn't equal HDE.
Nothing, the infinite-D stuff was just about how it doesn't matter what dimensional-space a person exists in, they're still 3D unless otherwise stated.
Because, and I cannot stress this enough, the individual citizens of the outside world and Gensokyo are still on the same 'level' of existence. It is the broader cosmological structure of their respective worlds that differs here. The outside world is 5/7D. Gensokyo is 4D. This means jack shit to anybody living in these worlds.
Also the 'literal fiction' stuff is true, but it is also not. Gensokyo is literally fictional from the perspective of the outside world, yes, but in a broader, cosmological context, it is very much real. This is like. the entire point of the Hifuu stories; Proving that this 'fictional' world does in fact exist, yet is still infinitely below the 'real' world.
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I did not insult in anyway possible, I don't even use the word **** or shit on my post lol. Now give me time to read those.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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That's... not what makes something insulting? I don't care if you say ****.
