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Top 10 Strongest Non-Smurfs for Every Tier Continuation

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He's the one fixing and correcting a lot of misconceptions with Destiny including the tier 1 stuff.
but yeah He's one of the supporters of Destiny i can trust
 
Sword Logic basically follows the idea of "Might makes Right" aka power defines everything

Bungie (2015/9/15), Destiny: The Taken King PlayStation 4, Activision Blizzard, Grimoire: XXVI: star by star by star
Explanation of How one improves their sword logic in a way that they become more defined and how they slowly

Bungie (2015/9/15), Destiny: The Taken King PlayStation 4, Activision Blizzard, Grimoire: XXIII: fire without fuel
read the entirety of these Grimiore for full context of the story regarding their crusade
This is the story of Oryx and his sister as they grow their worms to become mightier and mightier alongside the story where Oryx/Auryx killed his sisters to gain their powers and what they have accumulated over their millennia of killing in the material world

In Destiny killing someone proves that you're stronger than them or better than them including powers, cunning, wisdom, might, and knowledge, thus inheriting all of them and proving themselves stronger therefore rendered as True.
Oryx killed both his sisters to gain their cunning and might.
Oryx also killed his children to gain their powers
But you can read in the story his sisters came back to life that is because of the Throne World/Ascendant plane where although they are killed in the Real/Material Universe and Sword Logic treats that killing as true and thus grants the killer whatever and everything that killed has to the killer. even with the law of Sword Logic that weakens the powers taken by killing if they were revived or the killing is deemed Untrue. It doesn't apply to them as their Death remains True in the Material world and their ascension to the Ascended Plane and having their own Throne World allows them to freely create themselves again using their oversoul in their Throne World thus circumventing the no resurrection laws.
in Verse 4:5 their own hive created a war among themselves to further define them and grow stronger and at the same time cull their weak etc.
BETRAYAL. We have marooned Oryx within the Deep. This is our obligation as lords of the Hive, to make war upon each other, to eradicate weakness and make ourselves sharp.

OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. This left me trapped deep in my throne. But Oryx my brother made war upon the Ecumene and in that war he described me, for I too am war. Thus I was resurrected.

RESURRECTION. Savathûn and I conspired to strand Oryx on his expedition. But I secretly believe that I will be stronger with Oryx to war against. Thus I describe him.
Click to expand...
and we have proof that despite their resurrection Oryx retained whatever things he has inherited from killing his sisters in Verse 4:6
You are Crota, my son. Welcome.

I fought my way out of hell to make you. I fought my traitor siblings and I fought the swarming corpse of Akka and I cut my way back into my own court, the High War, which had been usurped. Once I had made war on Savathûn, and crippled her tribute so that she could never challenge me, and once I had tricked Xivu Arath, and poisoned her tribute so that she could never again try to take my tablets, and once I had arranged my own lineages so that I would be greatest among the Hive and secure on my throne — then I found a mother to make spawn.
Click to expand...
This isn't really a simple explanation since it heavily ties down to the whole Crusade Orxy did alongside his sister and his eventual victory over the Worms themselves.

But to summarize
Oryx and His siblings discovered an exploit in sword logic using the ascendant plane and throne world that circumvent Sword Logic rule with resurrection and still gained powers by resurrecting from it and they basically abused it (ProGamerMove)

edit : the first reference was wrong
 
Last edited:
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Sword Logic basically follows the idea of "Might makes Right" aka power defines everything

Bungie (2015/9/15), Destiny: The Taken King PlayStation 4, Activision Blizzard, Grimoire: XXVI: star by star by star
Explanation of How one improves their sword logic in a way that they become more defined and how they slowly

Bungie (2015/9/15), Destiny: The Taken King PlayStation 4, Activision Blizzard, Grimoire: XXIII: fire without fuel
read the entirety of these Grimiore for full context of the story regarding their crusade
This is the story of Oryx and his sister as they grow their worms to become mightier and mightier alongside the story where Oryx/Auryx killed his sisters to gain their powers and what they have accumulated over their millennia of killing in the material world

In Destiny killing someone proves that you're stronger than them or better than them including powers, cunning, wisdom, might, and knowledge, thus inheriting all of them and proving themselves stronger therefore rendered as True.
Oryx killed both his sisters to gain their cunning and might.
Oryx also killed his children to gain their powers
But you can read in the story his sisters came back to life that is because of the Throne World/Ascendant plane where although they are killed in the Real/Material Universe and Sword Logic treats that killing as true and thus grants the killer whatever and everything that killed has to the killer. even with the law of Sword Logic that weakens the powers taken by killing if they were revived or the killing is deemed Untrue. It doesn't apply to them as their Death remains True in the Material world and their ascension to the Ascended Plane and having their own Throne World allows them to freely create themselves again using their oversoul in their Throne World thus circumventing the no resurrection laws.
in Verse 4:5 their own hive created a war among themselves to further define them and grow stronger and at the same time cull their weak etc.

and we have proof that despite their resurrection Oryx retained whatever things he has inherited from killing his sisters in Verse 4:6

This isn't really a simple explanation since it heavily ties down to the whole Crusade Orxy did alongside his sister and his eventual victory over the Worms themselves.

But to summarize
Oryx and His siblings discovered an exploit in sword logic using the ascendant plane and throne world that circumvent Sword Logic rule with resurrection and still gained powers by resurrecting from it and they basically abused it (ProGamerMove)

edit : the first reference was wrong
Click to expand...
Yeah this is basically what I've been told time and time again.

But uh, how does this translate to layers? Their hax just seem to be getting unquantifiably stronger, not in the sense of hax > resistance > hax > resistance layering. This is basically the D&D thing all over again, where hax becoming stronger, even infinitely so, does not translate to additional "layers" as we treat them.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah this is basically what I've been told time and time again.

But uh, how does this translate to layers? Their hax just seem to be getting unquantifiably stronger, not in the sense of hax > resistance > hax > resistance layering. This is basically the D&D thing all over again, where hax becoming stronger, even infinitely so, does not translate to additional "layers" as we treat them.
Click to expand...
Because they grow relatively to what they kill including their hax. Ascendant hive also grows their hax and resistance in the process it literally went from causality resistance to being paracausal
To being bound by laws to bending laws by will and being unbound by it.
And even after that they are still weaker than the great worms like Akka and Xol thus these ascendant hive farmed each other by waging war against themselves and even one just outright letting the other kill to grant them their powers over and over until they got strong enough to fight the worms.
Its a loop
A kills b and gains all of B's power and resistance and B kills A and gain his power and resistance that is now stronger than B for initially killing her.

Its all under the concept of Sword Logic
So having sword logic hax also equates to having sword logic resistance as pee the "Might makes right" idealogy and power is everything. basically any hax under sword logic gets amped the more they repeat. It only applies to all hax under Sword Logic not all. And the entire game is literally about. I have longer sword logic. I have better sword logic to resist and fight you. I have sword logic this and that.

Else if one doesn't have sufficient sword logic they would just get haxed to death by parasites and powers.

You don't need a direct feat of hax resist hax resist hax resist.
You can simply establish how hax and resistance function and how one overcomes the other and one overcomes resistance of the others.

Hence i said earlier at least unknown at best countless.
Because incredible amount of time passed so assume they only grow stronger like say 20 when they were many statement about how many wars and how long they went with it is basically downplaying it.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Because they grow relatively to what they kill including their hax. Ascendant hive also grows their hax and resistance in the process it literally went from causality resistance to being paracausal
To being bound by laws to bending laws by will and being unbound by it.
And even after that they are still weaker than the great worms like Akka and Xol thus these ascendant hive farmed each other by waging war against themselves and even one just outright letting the other kill to grant them their powers over and over until they got strong enough to fight the worms.
Its a loop
A kills b and gains all of B's power and resistance and B kills A and gain his power and resistance that is now stronger than B for initially killing her.

Its all under the concept of Sword Logic
So having sword logic hax also equates to having sword logic resistance as pee the "Might makes right" idealogy and power is everything. basically any hax under sword logic gets amped the more they repeat. It only applies to all hax under Sword Logic not all. And the entire game is literally about. I have longer sword logic. I have better sword logic to resist and fight you. I have sword logic this and that.

Else if one doesn't have sufficient sword logic they would just get haxed to death by parasites and powers.

You don't need a direct feat of hax resist hax resist hax resist.
You can simply establish how hax and resistance function and how one overcomes the other and one overcomes resistance of the others.

Hence i said earlier at least unknown at best countless.
Because incredible amount of time passed so assume they only grow stronger like say 20 when they were many statement about how many wars and how long they went with it is basically downplaying it.
Click to expand...
...Yes, I already said I agreed with all of that. It's all been clearly explained.

But, the one thing I don't see an explanation for, is how Sword Logic becomes layered rather than more potent. Yes, they are increasing potency, to absurd and possibly an infinite/countless extent. But this is very different from saying that they can now overcome the resistance of someone who previously resisted their hax. It's the same reason why we don't treat "all previous abilities greatly enhanced" as an extra "layer" when it comes to profiles with multiple keys. Doesn't matter how much stronger a character gets; A more powerful ability isn't always a more layered one.

This is why I think layering tends to top out at like, 10 layers max. Everything beyond that either makes some huge leaps in logic or just misunderstands what a layer is.
 
The Reimu versus Saber thread has compelled me to go back here and ... not much has changed, honestly.

Seeing whether my beloved Waddle Dee can move up the 6-A list right now... depends on how many layers of mind manip resistance that Arthas, Gremmy and the Seven Deadly Sins characters have. I'm fairly sure that Waddle Dee's Empathic Manipulation is layered, but I'm not sure by how much. Also whether Waddle Dee gets Massively FTL+ speed while only having 6-A AP.
 
Ret_of_Guys said:
The Reimu versus Saber thread has compelled me to go back here and ... not much has changed, honestly.

Seeing whether my beloved Waddle Dee can move up the 6-A list right now... depends on how many layers of mind manip resistance that Arthas, Gremmy and the Seven Deadly Sins characters have. I'm fairly sure that Waddle Dee's Empathic Manipulation is layered, but I'm not sure by how much. Also whether Waddle Dee gets Massively FTL+ speed while only having 6-A AP.
Click to expand...
Dee mind Manips Arthas- and then- oh Frostmourne is controlling him now to keep fighting and he's 5-B now. welp.
 
Ret_of_Guys said:
Wait, Frostmoune can control him in the middle of the fight? We haven't seen how Friend Heart works against possession so uh
Click to expand...
It's closer to advanced Body Control, but I know friend hearts don't really interact with that either, so yeah.

It's way more effective to just outright kill Arthas rather than try to mindhax or empathy hax or really do anything with his mind. And even then if you don't MURDER him outright he's 5-B now and is continuing the fight
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Yes, I already said I agreed with all of that. It's all been clearly explained.

But, the one thing I don't see an explanation for, is how Sword Logic becomes layered rather than more potent. Yes, they are increasing potency, to absurd and possibly an infinite/countless extent. But this is very different from saying that they can now overcome the resistance of someone who previously resisted their hax. It's the same reason why we don't treat "all previous abilities greatly enhanced" as an extra "layer" when it comes to profiles with multiple keys. Doesn't matter how much stronger a character gets; A more powerful ability isn't always a more layered one.

This is why I think layering tends to top out at like, 10 layers max. Everything beyond that either makes some huge leaps in logic or just misunderstands what a layer is.
Click to expand...
It is mostly because how the verse function that way. You can make do with accepting it as layers or not but i find it very dishonest to the story to assume that this somehow does not equate to something greater because at that point if one is yo assume it is not layers yet in the story it means a lot due to the idealogy of how much they value strength/might and how there are rarely or no cases where in someone of weaker hax potency being able to affect the other with any hax. You could probably say assume this is a hax weakness like The Ki in DBS but unlike DBS where there are instances that these strength can be circumvented this verse doesn't and the killing or inheriting of said powers are mostly done by the killed allowing himself to be killed. Sure if you wanna be strict for vsbattling debate you can argue not but of course people who'd disagree with that notion would simply agree to disagree the only way to cut if off is to make it so that the site as a whole accept one interpretation or the other to make it so more defined. But then again such thing is almost unnecessary for indexing so its not something one care so much about if their goal is really just to index and not to argue specifics within verse.
 
Do you understand what a layer is? It is a means of measuring hax potency, but that does not mean every instance of hax potency increasing is tied to layers. In fact, that wall of text basically just admitted that this ISN'T a case of layering, so the whole countless layers shit should just go entirely. Decide where Destiny ends up without "countless layers" as a crutch and put it there.

I'll look into this more after work, and see if I need to make a CRT to actually formally apply this.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'll look into this more after work, and see if I need to make a CRT to actually formally apply this.
Click to expand...
You could i simply explained to you the logic behind the sword logic and how this mechanic is heavily tied and important to this verse and such.
Im personally not a supporter of Destiny but being in this wiki for so long you get to know verses from trustworthy people.

And yes i understand what a layer is. You not accepting whether it is not a layer isn't me not misunderstanding layer.

I stick to what i believe is reasonable not what what a group of people says what is reasonable. I only abide and follow standards on how they are shown and explained in the wiki. If they make it a hard standard then of course as much as i dislike it i would follow said standard within the site. But like i said there is no hard standard here and layers being notated is optional yet greatly advised to do so. Thus one is free to argue unless one makes a one all define for said topic
 
DaReaperMan said:
Sword logic puts you a step above the PnA of what you kill.

Oryx and his siblings and children have farmed eachother with that.

There's layers.
Click to expand...
Yet that's oddly enough the one thing I haven't been given a source for.

Always a red flag when the boldest claim has the least scans.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah this is basically what I've been told time and time again.

But uh, how does this translate to layers? Their hax just seem to be getting unquantifiably stronger, not in the sense of hax > resistance > hax > resistance layering. This is basically the D&D thing all over again, where hax becoming stronger, even infinitely so, does not translate to additional "layers" as we treat them.
Click to expand...
Wrong. They aren't becoming stronger. They are adapting further. I even showed the scans talking specifically about the adaptation. It's just, the Abyss keeps changing the game, forcing them to keep adapting to survive.
 
Yeah my mistake, I do still remember coming to the conclusion that it wasn't infinite layers though. Might've just been for the reason that there was a lack of indication of actual infinity (my memory ******* sucks).
 
I've updated the list with the requested changes.

I have some changes of my own which I wanna run past all of you before I make them.

I believe Fudo Myo-o should have the 1st placement at High 3-A, Greeza can't interact with Fudo Myo-o because his Abstract Existence while Fudo-Myo-o can interact through his NEP and AE because his attacks damage people on a fundamental, informational level. It's because of this level of damage, that Greeza can't regenerate from because he doesn't have High-Godly, and the fact that Greeza can't damage Fudo Myo-o that I believe he should have the 1st placement. I know on the profile itself it says Greeza "lacks any form of information", but it doesn't explain which type of information he lacks, he could lack all forms of biological information, but not lack fundamental information which constitutes his being. So for the time being, until someone knowledgeable of the verse can explain which type of information he lacks, I'm going to assume the least assumptive claim and say it's just biological.

I already made a vs thread on this but since the verse isn't popular at all, it's hard to find anyone who debates for it, and because of this I wanna ask this question. Should we remove Greeza from the list completely because no one can seemingly defend his position(s) on this thread?.
 
Deceived3596 said:
I've updated the list with the requested changes.

I have some changes of my own which I wanna run past all of you before I make them.

I believe Fudo Myo-o should have the 1st placement at High 3-A, Greeza can't interact with Fudo Myo-o because his Abstract Existence while Fudo-Myo-o can interact through his NEP and AE because his attacks damage people on a fundamental, informational level. It's because of this level of damage, that Greeza can't regenerate from because he doesn't have High-Godly, and the fact that Greeza can't damage Fudo Myo-o that I believe he should have the 1st placement. I know on the profile itself it says Greeza "lacks any form of information", but it doesn't explain which type of information he lacks, he could lack all forms of biological information, but not lack fundamental information which constitutes his being. So for the time being, until someone knowledgeable of the verse can explain which type of information he lacks, I'm going to assume the least assumptive claim and say it's just biological.

I already made a vs thread on this but since the verse isn't popular at all, it's hard to find anyone who debates for it, and because of this I wanna ask this question. Should we remove Greeza from the list completely because no one can seemingly defend his position(s) on this thread?.
Click to expand...
ik one dude who debates with greeza
and thats @Mr.Cutlery
but i feel like he quit
 
Deceived3596 said:
I've updated the list with the requested changes.

I have some changes of my own which I wanna run past all of you before I make them.

I believe Fudo Myo-o should have the 1st placement at High 3-A, Greeza can't interact with Fudo Myo-o because his Abstract Existence while Fudo-Myo-o can interact through his NEP and AE because his attacks damage people on a fundamental, informational level. It's because of this level of damage, that Greeza can't regenerate from because he doesn't have High-Godly, and the fact that Greeza can't damage Fudo Myo-o that I believe he should have the 1st placement. I know on the profile itself it says Greeza "lacks any form of information", but it doesn't explain which type of information he lacks, he could lack all forms of biological information, but not lack fundamental information which constitutes his being. So for the time being, until someone knowledgeable of the verse can explain which type of information he lacks, I'm going to assume the least assumptive claim and say it's just biological.

I already made a vs thread on this but since the verse isn't popular at all, it's hard to find anyone who debates for it, and because of this I wanna ask this question. Should we remove Greeza from the list completely because no one can seemingly defend his position(s) on this thread?.
Click to expand...
Greeza has fought Diablo (Web Novel) for 3A in one year ago.
It was decided that Diablo's İnformation Type 2 hax wasn't interact with Greeza.

But according to Greeza's profile , he can't be analyzed by technological devices just because he doesn't have a physical body. So Greeza should just lack İnformation Type 1. So Fdo Myo-o should be able to interact Greeza with Information Manipulation Type 2 hax.

Also there's no point keeping him on such lists if there's no one to defend him.
 
Amon for 1st spot 7-C along with Klein, he have the range to affect Beiloune and i guess the easiest wincon would be stealing his equipment
 
Who are the low 1-C characters for Nasuverse? I'd like to see if a match is possible.
 
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