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Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 7
- Thread starter ZERO7772
- Start date
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That's what I said in her index fingers, you only have two, one on each hand.
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It would probably be 5-B. It's basically just destroying the planet really.
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Can I bring up the idea of making an "Esper Power (To Aru)" and "Magic (To Aru)" page again?
IMO it seems better than listing technicalities like Law & Probability Manipulation on every page and would allow us to easily go into proper detail on the mechanics.
IMO it seems better than listing technicalities like Law & Probability Manipulation on every page and would allow us to easily go into proper detail on the mechanics.
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I agree
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@Don'tTalkDT
Sounds good to me.
Sounds good to me.
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In the magic page the common spells will also be added?
Btw, you were talking about the level 5 rank in the CRT for Maidono and i want to add my opinion.
Well, we know some of the things you need to be a level 5, one of them being "research value" which is the only one Maidono lacks, but if she had it, she would really be at the top? afaik, Aleister is the one who made the rank, based in the usefulness of each esper for his plans (the main and the 2nd plan, the original sister being the #1, #2 and #3 respectively), with Gunha being the #7 because either Aleister doesn't understand his powers (which is unlikely since Ollerus was able to understand it) or he just doesn't think they are of any use for him, and Mugino being the #4 because she could be a substitute for Mikoto if the sisters project failed (both have powers related to electrons).
Btw, you were talking about the level 5 rank in the CRT for Maidono and i want to add my opinion.
Well, we know some of the things you need to be a level 5, one of them being "research value" which is the only one Maidono lacks, but if she had it, she would really be at the top? afaik, Aleister is the one who made the rank, based in the usefulness of each esper for his plans (the main and the 2nd plan, the original sister being the #1, #2 and #3 respectively), with Gunha being the #7 because either Aleister doesn't understand his powers (which is unlikely since Ollerus was able to understand it) or he just doesn't think they are of any use for him, and Mugino being the #4 because she could be a substitute for Mikoto if the sisters project failed (both have powers related to electrons).
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no she would not be at the top
if we are talking about raw power all lvl 5 beat her apart from misaki which is not combat oriented
she can just better translate to physically as her power is telekinesis and im sure accel,gunha and kekynay still beat her in physical power too as they all have bullshit powers that don't care about rules (vectors,DM and GUTS)
mugino is higher too if she removes her survival limiters
and mikoto is like 100 times more versatile
hell in my opinion yonbou is still 10 time better than maidono as he can affect living matter and has almost multi skill with what he can do
and generally u don't care about raw power when u can ignore durability of object
if we are talking about raw power all lvl 5 beat her apart from misaki which is not combat oriented
she can just better translate to physically as her power is telekinesis and im sure accel,gunha and kekynay still beat her in physical power too as they all have bullshit powers that don't care about rules (vectors,DM and GUTS)
mugino is higher too if she removes her survival limiters
and mikoto is like 100 times more versatile
hell in my opinion yonbou is still 10 time better than maidono as he can affect living matter and has almost multi skill with what he can do
and generally u don't care about raw power when u can ignore durability of object
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I think no Even maidono have research value she didn't at the top maybe after misaka mugino But if it based on strength power maybe she is after kakine
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nah even with raw power it would probaly go
accel kekine gunha mugino and then maidono
accel gunha and kekine all bend the law of physic as they want , kekine can just create anti matter DM if he tried or some ultra explosive DM, gunha probably can guts trough anything and is probably saint lvl
mugino has a lot of raw power, problem is it's self destructive
accel kekine gunha mugino and then maidono
accel gunha and kekine all bend the law of physic as they want , kekine can just create anti matter DM if he tried or some ultra explosive DM, gunha probably can guts trough anything and is probably saint lvl
mugino has a lot of raw power, problem is it's self destructive
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It has been said that both Maidono and Mugino have higher output power than Mikoto but we just don't know Mugino's highest output compared to Maidono's.
Kakine, I think is actually hard to place on the raw power scale since his powers aren't about power and they have never been compared to power either; unlike let's say Accelerator who's power is often said to be great. So Kakine could be lower on the raw power scale than people actually think.
That said I would still put Kakine above Maidono. So going on a raw power scale only I would say it goes something like this.
Accelerator>Kakine>Gunha>Maidono=Mugino>Mikoto>Misaki
Tbh though I don't think Maidono would be in the top 2 no matter what the catergory.
Level 5s are chosen due to four reasons
1. Power
Maidono would come about 4th or 5th in this catergory depending on how much firepower Mugino truly has.
2.Versatility (which can be looked at in two ways. a) Applications of power and b) The different uses it can have for scientific value)
In both these catergories she would come dead last since she lacks versatility in both areas.
I would say it goes like this.
A) Accelerator, Kakine, Gunha, Misaki, Mikoto, Mugino and Maidono
B) Kakine, Accelerator, Misaki, Mikoto, Mugino, Gunha and Maidono.
I actually think Misaki and Mikoto might come before Accelerator in category B.
3. Reseach value
Maidono's power again doesn't do much except destroy things. It can't allow scientist to discover new laws and discoveries like Accelerator's power. It can't create things like Kakine's power. It hasn't got control over electromagnetism and electrons like Mikoto and Mugino respectfully. Mental out can do a lot include on the medical front. Maidono's only use for her powers if simply be a weapon. She might come before Gunha but that's about it.
Accelerator=Kakine>Misaki>Mikoto>Mugino>Maidono>Gunha
4. Aleister's pla Here she would be dead last again. The order would remain the same as it is since I think the order more or less goes by Aleister's plan.
Kakine, I think is actually hard to place on the raw power scale since his powers aren't about power and they have never been compared to power either; unlike let's say Accelerator who's power is often said to be great. So Kakine could be lower on the raw power scale than people actually think.
That said I would still put Kakine above Maidono. So going on a raw power scale only I would say it goes something like this.
Accelerator>Kakine>Gunha>Maidono=Mugino>Mikoto>Misaki
Tbh though I don't think Maidono would be in the top 2 no matter what the catergory.
Level 5s are chosen due to four reasons
1. Power
Maidono would come about 4th or 5th in this catergory depending on how much firepower Mugino truly has.
2.Versatility (which can be looked at in two ways. a) Applications of power and b) The different uses it can have for scientific value)
In both these catergories she would come dead last since she lacks versatility in both areas.
I would say it goes like this.
A) Accelerator, Kakine, Gunha, Misaki, Mikoto, Mugino and Maidono
B) Kakine, Accelerator, Misaki, Mikoto, Mugino, Gunha and Maidono.
I actually think Misaki and Mikoto might come before Accelerator in category B.
3. Reseach value
Maidono's power again doesn't do much except destroy things. It can't allow scientist to discover new laws and discoveries like Accelerator's power. It can't create things like Kakine's power. It hasn't got control over electromagnetism and electrons like Mikoto and Mugino respectfully. Mental out can do a lot include on the medical front. Maidono's only use for her powers if simply be a weapon. She might come before Gunha but that's about it.
Accelerator=Kakine>Misaki>Mikoto>Mugino>Maidono>Gunha
4. Aleister's pla Here she would be dead last again. The order would remain the same as it is since I think the order more or less goes by Aleister's plan.
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I think one of the reason why Maidono cant be classified as level 5 is because her lack calculating ability. We know that most level 5 (except Gunha I think) has extraordinary calculating ability.
Meltdowner for example since calculating electron needs a lot of understanding about at least Maxwell Equation, Lorentz force law, and probably even Quantum mechanics. Just compare it with Maidono ability which is just using simple calculation from Newton laws of motion.
We knows that goal of SYSTEM is to get someone who can do God calculation which is main reason why esper who cant to complex calculation cant become level 5.
Meltdowner for example since calculating electron needs a lot of understanding about at least Maxwell Equation, Lorentz force law, and probably even Quantum mechanics. Just compare it with Maidono ability which is just using simple calculation from Newton laws of motion.
We knows that goal of SYSTEM is to get someone who can do God calculation which is main reason why esper who cant to complex calculation cant become level 5.
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There's actually a piece of work that Kazuma did a while a go and it goes into details about the differences between different levels.The wall between Level 3 & 4. Keep in mind that the page is a wiki link since I couldn't find a good copy or translated copy of it.
Other then going into the different levels of the clasification something of note is what catches my attention.
"This is related to the Personal Reality that is the fundamental law behind the manifestation of esper powers. Espers create the phenomena they wish for by focusing on making the impossible possible with their own power and by understanding, calculating, and naturally expressing the phenomena as "reality". How well they can grasp these absurd phenomena in their Personal Reality is what determines an esper's evaluation. And that is what creates the barrier between Level 3 and Level 4.
Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should."
So what differenantce Levels is base on how well they can express their Powers and the calculations are all base on helps then manifest the phenomenas.
Other then going into the different levels of the clasification something of note is what catches my attention.
"This is related to the Personal Reality that is the fundamental law behind the manifestation of esper powers. Espers create the phenomena they wish for by focusing on making the impossible possible with their own power and by understanding, calculating, and naturally expressing the phenomena as "reality". How well they can grasp these absurd phenomena in their Personal Reality is what determines an esper's evaluation. And that is what creates the barrier between Level 3 and Level 4.
Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should."
So what differenantce Levels is base on how well they can express their Powers and the calculations are all base on helps then manifest the phenomenas.
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We are talking about how Maidono would be a strong but useless LV5, how Mugino being #4 does little to no sense, how Aleister's plan/system are basically unknown to us at the moment, but no one said that Aihana will be even more useless than Maidono or break the rank even more.
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No one even knows what Aihana's powers are. For that reason I never include him in the conversation since it's pretty much pointless.
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I know, i'm saying when Kamachi reveal his power, either he will be the weakest (Gunha is #7 only because no one understands him) or he will be stronger than Mugino and Misaki, which will make the rank (and SYSTEM) even more confusing.
Btw, L6S is the 4th level 5, not Maidono.
Btw, L6S is the 4th level 5, not Maidono.
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It looks like we have another level 5, the first esper. She's not an offical level 5 of course because the ranking system didn't exist back in her time but it's been mentioned by JS06 that she would have been classified as one if it did exist.
@XDragnoir
Yes they were reverted by the looks of it. If it's those changes done by the CRT you did a while back then it's best to add the thread link in the summery when you do the changes.
@XDragnoir
Yes they were reverted by the looks of it. If it's those changes done by the CRT you did a while back then it's best to add the thread link in the summery when you do the changes.
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So anyone knew how strong the first esper and what is her power
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I think you can do them with the link in summery. But did you get the changes agreed upon by Lazy and/or DT?
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Level 5 if the system existed back then, likely precognition/foresight .Reyzakurrota said:
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Maidono is a level 4 but with a power output of a level 5. I think the first esper is a level 5 or at least would have been if the system existed back in her day. It's not at all surprising that these so called "LV5s" are coming out of the woodwork.
It would not even surprise me if we find out that there are in fact more LV5s that are actual level fives but was hidden from public view. Although all of this just makes me think that we are never going to see the 6th ranked level 5 because it feels to me that Kamachi is trying to avoid it somehow.
GT1 would have been the perfect time to introduce him. Then again if they wanted someone with power then maybe not since I do have a feeling that his power might be shapeshifting, so maybe like Misaki he doesn't go for power.
It would not even surprise me if we find out that there are in fact more LV5s that are actual level fives but was hidden from public view. Although all of this just makes me think that we are never going to see the 6th ranked level 5 because it feels to me that Kamachi is trying to avoid it somehow.
GT1 would have been the perfect time to introduce him. Then again if they wanted someone with power then maybe not since I do have a feeling that his power might be shapeshifting, so maybe like Misaki he doesn't go for power.
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What does this even mean?XDragnoir said:
There not being many Level 5's walking around but Espers fitting the bill makes perfect sense with what Level 5's represent.
It's literally just a category for Aleister to prance them around for the public as well as for his plan. IT's not hard to believe there are other Espers who could be similarly on the Level but are shafted for specific reasons. It's probably harder to make a stable Level 5 who has no issues in their daily life than a super powered one like Maidono.
This doesn't attribute anything to planning, in fact it shows he did plan for it if anything. The point of it isn't 'oh being level 5 is bad', the point is that Maidono is a cripple whose power is only good for destruction, so she has no use in that flexible category of Level 5.
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At the start level 5 was a level massively above level 4, with every LV5 being the strongest at something, but now they are just... versatil? I mean, maybe i was a bit close minded in my previous comment, but if power isn't what make a level 5, and versality alone isn't enough, why Mugino or Gunha are LV5s? And why teleporters or multi-skill users aren't LV5s?
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I mentioned this before but I found this page that shows the different levels and what makes them different.
For the teleporters with the limit cases its shown them only haveing limited application, Kuroko is only able to move objects within a certain weight and can only do it with physical contact. Awaki has a higher wieght limit and don't have the contact limit but has a mental trauma that limits her potential.
Multi-skill users arent natural,even under the Esper catagory, only through useing the AIM firelds from outsiders like the Level Upper Network can Multi-skill be possible and just because you can use different skills doesn't effect the individual level of each skill.
For the teleporters with the limit cases its shown them only haveing limited application, Kuroko is only able to move objects within a certain weight and can only do it with physical contact. Awaki has a higher wieght limit and don't have the contact limit but has a mental trauma that limits her potential.
Multi-skill users arent natural,even under the Esper catagory, only through useing the AIM firelds from outsiders like the Level Upper Network can Multi-skill be possible and just because you can use different skills doesn't effect the individual level of each skill.
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Also it seems that Maidono using her index fingers as her focus for her powers was something that was created in order to optimize her powers, meaning that her level of power is due to her limiting her ability to use it in different ways like how the Level 5's are able to use their power through different methods.
I'll need to actually re-read the section to confirm though.
I'll need to actually re-read the section to confirm though.
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Ever considered the fact that alot of the Level 5's are just propoganda machine's and experiment junkies? It's largely, while they are in their own realm of tier, a superficial rating system.XDragnoir said:
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I don't see the problem with Maidono or the Beginning Child having powers comparable to Level 5s in some way like raw power. Level 5, just like all the other leves, is an arbitrary designation made up by Academy City. For each type of esper power the city decides the point where you start qualifying for the next level, like being able to teleport yourself apparently being a qualification for Level 4 for teleporters. And if you look at other Telekinesis/Psychokinesis users, Maidono's only advantage is raw power. Yes, that's an important part to versus debaters, but for Academy City they simply have a much stronger but limited version of one of their most common powers that lacks the versatility and skilled manipulation abilities of weaker telekinetics and has sacrificed some of her motor skills to achieve her level of power.
The only issue I see is how the focus put in the novel in the "purely destructive power" angle immediately brings Mugino to mind since she's also very focused in destructive power with not much versatility compared to the other Level 5s. I assume Mugino got the Level 5 designation while Maidono didn't since Mugino didn't need the kind of optimization Maidono got and because her power is likely much rarer than Telekinesis so scientists are likely much more interested on what she does with electrons than the raw telekinetic power Maidono has.
The only issue I see is how the focus put in the novel in the "purely destructive power" angle immediately brings Mugino to mind since she's also very focused in destructive power with not much versatility compared to the other Level 5s. I assume Mugino got the Level 5 designation while Maidono didn't since Mugino didn't need the kind of optimization Maidono got and because her power is likely much rarer than Telekinesis so scientists are likely much more interested on what she does with electrons than the raw telekinetic power Maidono has.
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