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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

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GT9 Short Synopsis is out.
上条らが挑むのは、学園都市を蹂躙闊歩する『復活のローゼンクロイツ』!
魔神も超絶者も超能力者も魔術師も。全てを 超える存在、CRC（クリスチャン＝ローゼンクロイツ）。その『退屈しのぎ』の恐るべき前進は、誰にも止められない。唯一、上条当麻を除いて――！
Click to expand...
js06 translation below incase you don't want to be spoiled.
https://twitter.com/js_06/status/1714739042665840766?s=46
https://twitter.com/js_06/status/1714739043773075866?s=46
 
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Piamma said:
It's entirely possible that CRC is stronger than Mgs, but Alice has never surpassed othinus
Click to expand...
Kamachi kinda wants to disagree:

"The irritating thing for them is that they can destroy everything with ease, but they can’t remake it all afterwards. They’re so reluctant to play their one and only card that they were even caught in Othinus’s destruction of the world and killed. (Because if the Transcendents had killed Othinus in that dark space, they couldn’t have remade the world like she did.) With that in mind, can you see why they’re so terrified of Alice whose innocence makes her impossible to predict? She has the destruction button right in front of her, after all." GT6 Afterword

Like, to make this even more clear, Coronzon isn't afaik a Secret Chief and she still had a Magick spell that rivaled Gungnir, the Transcendents are a group of magicians that uses a good bit of Magick and in the group they have Aradia who can one shot a MG, there's no way Alice doesn't have something around this power level given she is explicitly well beyond all of the previous characters + the quote above.
 
The problem with that statement is that we basically know that in all known cases it's via hax or other roundabout ways. Like, Aradia doesn't have that power. She can only potentially reach that power if she keeps stacking good deeds for who knows how long.
So for all we know Alice can do it not because she is remotely as strong, but because LAW can just hax Othinus dead.
 
DontTalkDT said:
The problem with that statement is that we basically know that in all known cases it's via hax or other roundabout ways. Like, Aradia doesn't have that power. She can only potentially reach that power if she keeps stacking good deeds for who knows how long.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I never claimed it was done via AP or anything like that, but in Aradia's case it's not really a hax, iirc Triple Reload made her attacks stronger, so it's more than possible that Alice's true power is, to some extent, applicable to her AP.

DontTalkDT said:
So for all we know Alice can do it not because she is remotely as strong, but because LAW can just hax Othinus dead.
Click to expand...
I really doubt that the secret power Alice only shows when she takes things in her own hands is the barely combat applicable (from what we saw so far) reality warping that isn't even a secret power anymore.
 
So... we are not going to upgrade the remaining characters to 6B? I am kinda lost on the current state of the profiles.
 
XDragnoir said:
So... we are not going to upgrade the remaining characters to 6B? I am kinda lost on the current state of the profiles.
Click to expand...
You could probably make a thread on it, say who it applies to and why (address why the backwards scaling is valid etc.) and then get that done.

Technically I would like to do the rest of the low tier revision first, buuuuut.... Between that Ultima Tiering System Revision, the Saiki thread and real life work I couldn't give it as much attention as it will probably need so I'm hesitant to start it. So I guess may as well do that first.
 
DontTalkDT said:
You could probably make a thread on it, say who it applies to and why (address why the backwards scaling is valid etc.) and then get that done.
Click to expand...
🤔 Got it

What backwards scaling tho? I thought we had already agreed on everything on the last revision but just didn't apply, that's why I am lost to begin with.
 
XDragnoir said:
🤔 Got it

What backwards scaling tho? I thought we had already agreed on everything on the last revision but just didn't apply, that's why I am lost to begin with.
Click to expand...
I think it would be good if you gave an explanation for why WW3 Gabriel (with the four elements distorted) should scale to his later pure angel version. (That what we are basing it on, right?)
That's the part I'm most on edge about and it definitely helps if the evaluating staff understands the reason for the whole scaling chain.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I think it would be good if you gave an explanation for why WW3 Gabriel (with the four elements distorted) should scale to his later pure angel version. (That what we are basing it on, right?)
That's the part I'm most on edge about and it definitely helps if the evaluating staff understands the reason for the whole scaling chain.
Click to expand...
1st, Gabriel is actually one of the profiles that was already fully updated, he is already 6B is all keys so everything has clearly already been accepted, it's just a matter of the others having it applied

2nd, if there's ACTUAL need for the reasons to be discussed again (I haven't seen any so far, given Gabriel is 6B already), I can do that later today if someone is willing to have the task of updating the profiles (updating is already a pain in the ass, sources/references are an extra pain).
 
I will ask again, why Index was upgraded to 6B, specially in her durability for fighting Mikoto? I don't want to add different topics to my CRT, but I will add this one if a have to
 
vsbattles.com

Toaru: 6B Clarification and Reupdate

To begin with, this CRT is based on things that were accepted in the last CRT for Mid/High tiers with most of the profiles already having been upgraded accordingly, so the calcs and most things things have already been discussed and accepted. Why am I creating it? Well, I am not really sure, I...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
GT9 spoiler

Chapter Transcendents not finished
The CRC as we've known it is simply a fake.
he's Johannes Valentinus Andreä

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Valentinus_Andreae)

Kamijou calls up the KnT of his own volition and uses it to overwhelm the CRC.
All dragons that have appeared so far, including the Dragon King's head, are confirmed to be part of the KnT.
He also talks to the KnT inside himself, much like ichigo talked to Hollow in Bleach.

Alice is alive, but without a neck.
Othinus guessed.
She must have a more powerful resurrection spell than Mary
That's why he should never have been satisfied with just killing Alice once.
That flimsy satisfaction led to his certain death.

Yes fake CRC (johan) definitely died in GT9.
He is the only certain death in GT9.

kingsford is also still alive.
This is also because kingsford is just a corpse that made something that was dead to begin with move.

Alice kills the CRC and laughs maniacally

Index and Othinus looking on

GT9 ends with Kingsford watching the above and starting to act to save them because they are in danger.

Anna was rescued safely.
Heaven Canceler succeeds in scientifically analyzing Anna's magical damage.
He cured that all of Anna's blood has been replaced by artificial dialysis with other blood.
The spell was a blood-based ritual to kill the target.
The spell was destroyed because all the blood was replaced.

Finally, misaka and misaki also finally experienced death.
they fought back to buy time from the CRC in the final hospital battle and died.

List of people killed in the hospital battle

misaki, misaka, aradia, Bologna Succubus
They were revived after the battle by Mary.
Mary calmly prioritized her own survival, and in the end she revived them all.

The top honors for this battle go to Good Old Mary.
Without her, Kamijou may have won the battle, but it would have had a terrible ending, with all of his companions dead.



If you'd like to know more, please ask me.
Personally, I've been most pleased with this volume of GTs.




 
1
Piamma said:
GT9 spoiler

Chapter Transcendents not finished
The CRC as we've known it is simply a fake.
he's Johannes Valentinus Andreä

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Valentinus_Andreae)

Kamijou calls up the KnT of his own volition and uses it to overwhelm the CRC.
All dragons that have appeared so far, including the Dragon King's head, are confirmed to be part of the KnT.
He also talks to the KnT inside himself, much like ichigo talked to Hollow in Bleach.

Alice is alive, but without a neck.
Othinus guessed.
She must have a more powerful resurrection spell than Mary
That's why he should never have been satisfied with just killing Alice once.
That flimsy satisfaction led to his certain death.

Yes fake CRC (johan) definitely died in GT9.
He is the only certain death in GT9.

kingsford is also still alive.
This is also because kingsford is just a corpse that made something that was dead to begin with move.

Alice kills the CRC and laughs maniacally

Index and Othinus looking on

GT9 ends with Kingsford watching the above and starting to act to save them because they are in danger.

Anna was rescued safely.
Heaven Canceler succeeds in scientifically analyzing Anna's magical damage.
He cured that all of Anna's blood has been replaced by artificial dialysis with other blood.
The spell was a blood-based ritual to kill the target.
The spell was destroyed because all the blood was replaced.

Finally, misaka and misaki also finally experienced death.
they fought back to buy time from the CRC in the final hospital battle and died.

List of people killed in the hospital battle

misaki, misaka, aradia, Bologna Succubus
They were revived after the battle by Mary.
Mary calmly prioritized her own survival, and in the end she revived them all.

The top honors for this battle go to Good Old Mary.
Without her, Kamijou may have won the battle, but it would have had a terrible ending, with all of his companions dead.



If you'd like to know more, please ask me.
Personally, I've been most pleased with this volume of GTs.




Click to expand...
Definitely this is the best of GT so far. I love how the shit going on.
 
vsbattles.com

Crowley's Nondualism.

Aleister should get Nonduality Nature 1 Aspect 1 because he is existed and surpassed the realm of 0 or 1. Because of this, he can exist in multiple locations at the same time. He also described as someone who exist in different dimension and destroyed the basic concept of counting. Multiple...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Man, unless something is still coming CRC is a pain in the ass to scale and Touma's dragon right with him. Because, like, we all know the problem with transcendent hype, so the scaling to them doesn't result in much. But then he is strongly indicated to not be harmable by Aleister and his Coronzon summon, but of course they didn't bother to actually use their magic god level techniques on him. A flaming sword spell being blocked without hax is all that would have been needed to get this pile of baseless hype some solid scaling, but nooooooo.

At least CRC has his own relativistic+ reactions feat (well, debatable, given distance. But fast), since in my understanding he needs to consciously react to block things like the particle accelerator.
 
No spoilers ahead, but be careful:

With everything that has happened up to GT9, I think it's really time for us to revise how we scale all the bs and Toaru.

CRC, Transcendents, etc, Toaru is not a straightforward type verse like a manga battle shounen and I think we probably messed up somewhere before reaching this point.

We have to FINISH the damn 6B thread and start a 5B/H1C thread for pre-GT things and later on one for GT bs, doing everything at once would probably be worse as we've seen how massive revisions usually go in this verse.
 
I was rereading the Kanzaki vs Acqua fight in OT16 and noticed this part.

A straight-line descent.
And a giant mace swinging down at her.
What unleashed from there was not a slash, nor a stab, nor a firing, nor an explosion, nor a burst, nor a severing, nor a crushing.
It was simple pressure.
The overwhelming destructive force pushing down surpassed even a small planetary collision.
Click to expand...
Am I misunderstanding or is this saying that the pressure created from Acqua's attack is superior to the pressure that would result from 2 small planets colliding?
 
GunTish said:
I was rereading the Kanzaki vs Acqua fight in OT16 and noticed this part.


Am I misunderstanding or is this saying that the pressure created from Acqua's attack is superior to the pressure that would result from 2 small planets colliding?
Click to expand...
This means that Aqua's attack is stronger than the force of the asteroid crashing to Earth.
However, there is no specific description of the mass and falling velocity of the asteroids being compared.
 
XDragnoir said:
No spoilers ahead, but be careful:

With everything that has happened up to GT9, I think it's really time for us to revise how we scale all the bs and Toaru.

CRC, Transcendents, etc, Toaru is not a straightforward type verse like a manga battle shounen and I think we probably messed up somewhere before reaching this point.

We have to FINISH the damn 6B thread and start a 5B/H1C thread for pre-GT things and later on one for GT bs, doing everything at once would probably be worse as we've seen how massive revisions usually go in this verse.
Click to expand...

Most of the errors about GT's power scaling start with GT6's afterword and Aradia's narrative.
We need to get serious about this being an exaggeration.
I will provide all the original Japanese texts I have if necessary to help correct this.
 
Piamma said:
Most of the errors about GT's power scaling start with GT6's afterword and Aradia's narrative.
We need to get serious about this being an exaggeration.
I will provide all the original Japanese texts I have if necessary to help correct this.
Click to expand...
Most, sure, but I think we probably did something wrong all the way back in NT scaling that is ******* us up now in GT, I guess we will have to wait and see tho.

Also, what do you mean by "this being an exaggeration"? Not sure I got it.
 
XDragnoir said:
Most, sure, but I think we probably did something wrong all the way back in NT scaling that is ******* us up now in GT, I guess we will have to wait and see tho.

Also, what do you mean by "this being an exaggeration"? Not sure I got it.
Click to expand...

The narrative that Aradia's Magic can kill Mgs is an exaggeration.
I'm not very good with English, so I'm using a translator. Please forgive me for this.
If you don't understand something, please ask again.
 
Piamma said:
The narrative that Aradia's Magic can kill Mgs is an exaggeration.
I'm not very good with English, so I'm using a translator. Please forgive me for this.
If you don't understand something, please ask again.
Click to expand...
"Give me the chance and it will snowball far beyond anything you can handle. All I have to do is perform good deeds throughout my everyday life – or set things up so my actions are interpreted that way – and my power will eventually grow to the point that I can one-shot a Magic God or a Transcendent"

This is what Aradia said, there's not any reason to take this as an exaggeration nor does it bring any kind of inconsistency to our scaling.
 
XDragnoir said:
"Give me the chance and it will snowball far beyond anything you can handle. All I have to do is perform good deeds throughout my everyday life – or set things up so my actions are interpreted that way – and my power will eventually grow to the point that I can one-shot a Magic God or a Transcendent"

This is what Aradia said, there's not any reason to take this as an exaggeration nor does it bring any kind of inconsistency to our scaling.
Click to expand...
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with what she's saying.

But her magic is amplified by accumulating good deeds, so she can eventually beat mgs, not that she can beat mgs from the start.

What I'm saying is that in a real Fight situation, a finger snap from MGS would kill her much faster and more powerfully than her amplifying her power to kill Mgs.

So it's wrong to measure the power of all Transcendents based on her magic.

Think of aleister's blasting lord, which is actually similar to her magic.

He amplified his power by a factor of 10, eventually reaching 10 times the Big Bang.
But even he was mentioned as having a simple power that was less than the Infinite nerf niyang niyang.
 
Hmmm, yes, we know that, I doubt anyone here thinks Transcendents are 1:1 with MGs.

Aradia is far from being one of the actual problems we have to deal with in our scaling.
 
Yea this is going to be an issue, I was REALLY hoping that CRC's 78 Tarot card Rosicrucian spell would get a direct power statement or at least a scaling comparison like Flaming_Sword... Now it all depends on Dragon King's scaling... but I hear something in the Epilogue/??? may give more insight into the Kamijou situation.

Otherwise we need to revisit the scaling of the general Transcendents/Anna Sprengel because the variance/circumstance is too much to broad cross scale like we do say the Magic Gods or Saints and then strongly consider what we've seen from Alice Anotherbible and if that can be applied to CRC or not. Then there's probably a new key in it for Aleister and Kingsford (who will also be a pain).
 
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
Hi everyone, this is kind of a random question, but what's the best place to get into the franchise? I'm assuming the first Index novel?
Click to expand...
Well, the first novel, the Index anime and the railgun anime.

Reading the mangas isn't a bad option either, so I'd say to go with the media you like the most (just be aware that the Index anime is pretty average)
 
DontTalkDT said:
Man, unless something is still coming CRC is a pain in the ass to scale and Touma's dragon right with him. Because, like, we all know the problem with transcendent hype, so the scaling to them doesn't result in much. But then he is strongly indicated to not be harmable by Aleister and his Coronzon summon, but of course they didn't bother to actually use their magic god level techniques on him. A flaming sword spell being blocked without hax is all that would have been needed to get this pile of baseless hype some solid scaling, but nooooooo.

At least CRC has his own relativistic+ reactions feat (well, debatable, given distance. But fast), since in my understanding he needs to consciously react to block things like the particle accelerator.
Click to expand...
Those powerscaling is chaos
 
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