Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Aseka]

Just hoping Kamachi bring more about cosmology in future.

 

[Churronzon]

At her lowest tier Othinus would still be Low 2C for reshaping the universe and Gungnir can destroy it, TMGs would then be L2C too.

I gotta ask again: what infinite strength feats/statements does Othinus have to warrant destroying an infinite-sized structure and qualify for even High 3-A?

I'm not going to be presumptuous enough to say I've figured it all out, but I just wanted to throw some ideas around.

Ehhhh, no? The Archangels are literally in the heaven phase, we know that because of Fiamma and the whole WW3 situation.

Yeah looks like you're right. God and the angels are described as being in heaven.

However, entities like Angel of ZAX still exists in the hidden 11th sphere. There’s different angels in each, such as Holy Guardian Angel of the Pure World.

Coronzon herself was the angel who resided in ZAX, the tenth Aethyr.

The target is the angel who wanders the
tenth Aethyr of ZAX and is hidden in the Sephiroth’s Abyss along with Da’at. She is the
transcendent being necessary to cross the Abyss and acquire the knowledge beyond.”

Even Othinus states that the Sephiroth are guarded by the angels.

“This is a simple adaptation of a sanctifying vocalization. A familiar and tangible metal is
used to envision an invisible Sephirah and, much like a woodpecker, an extra ‘nest’ is
embedded in the pathways between the tree’s spheres in order to alter the rules of the
world. The Sephiroth are guarded by the angels, so is creating a fictional angel supposed
to create a fictional sphere? I see. Fair enough. That is very much the kind of spell I can
imagine a puny human coming up with. A truly hardheaded and boring type of magic that
traps your infinite imagination in the realistic frameworks of metals or elements.”

There's 30 angels in whatever Thelemic spiritual higher realm that IRL Crowley came up with, with the only direct similarity between the two being the tenth Aethyr ZAX.

Of the thirty angels,
the tenth is Zax, also known as Coronzon. Its true essence is the number 333, it prevents
a true bonding with the laws of the world, and thus its true meaning is dispersion. It
appears to assist you and to be the key needed to cross the abyss, but it is actually a Great
Demon that spreads all forms of pollution and atrocities throughout the world from the
one who contacted it. ...Hah. A Great Demon, hm? Such a simple term that provides an
accurate image to even the greatest fool, regardless of their knowledge or education.
Which is perfect for Coronzon.”

“By using written text to divide the spiritual territory spoken of by Enoch into a total of
thirty regions, you create a color palette providing easier use of the supernatural. In other
words, you get the Aethyrs. By absorbing the moonlight in her hair over a long period of
time and spelling out the text with that, she is capable of wielding their avatars. Is that
what this is, Great Demon Coronzon!? Indeed, you were originally the evil angel found in
ZAX, the tenth Aethyr!!”

Dumbass Kamachi confused 16th Aethyr LEA with 26th Aethyr DES. Or js06 made a small typo. All the others are correct.

“Aethyr Avatar – 16: DES.”

“Nee hee!? Aethyr Avatars!!”
Angels made of golden hair appeared by bursting up through the thick layer of ice. 2: ARN,
8: ZID, 13: ZIM, 21: ASP, 25: VTI, and more. Their essences were equal, but their nature
was changed by the letters used to define them. Those false angel images lined up in a
long row.

Something just occurred to me. Can Othinus even destroy phases? There's some basis for thinking she can, but it doesn't logically line up with what it would imply and I've seen split opinions.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces
as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the
force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases
were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of
glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.

Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying
anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the
world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would
produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as
“creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.

Several things to consider(although I haven't settled on an answer yet):

• It's stated that Othinus is not technically destroying any of the phases, including the "happy world". She is just creating the Black World over it. The newest phase takes precedence on how the world appears.
• If Othinus destroyed all the phases, she would have unveiled and reached the Pure World, fulfilling Aleister's plan and likely killed all the Magic Gods. Yet, it didn't happen.
• Othinus destroying all the phases would destroy her own Black World.
• If she could peel the layer of phases one at a time, she would have no need for Imagine Breaker to find her world as she could spend her time scraping off phases rather than creating billions to torment Touma.
• If she destroyed all the phases, including heaven, why do they still exist after the events of NT9? She's not capable of remembering her original world, much less the exact specifications and contents of all the other phases, to recreate them.
• Doesn't Othinus needs Imagine Breaker to restore a previous phase?

(That must mean Imagine Breaker is special to her. It destroys. It does the opposite of
what a god does. This hand holds the possibility of erasing what is unnecessary. In that
case, it should be possible to fix the gears that have been thrown out of order.)

Ollerus had said Imagine Breaker was the selfish dreams of all magicians.

If their twisting of the world produced a disadvantageous result, that reference point or
restoration point could return it to normal or erase what was done.

And wasn’t this exactly such a case?

It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or
hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even
imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell.

Since I don't hold a bias, I'll also post the two scans that contradict my assertion.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had
assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and
leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had
not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one
last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

This scan implies she did destroy all the other phases.


And then there's the one making a differentiation between universe and world, implying that world in this context refers to either the phase itself or nearly all the phases.

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God
was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic.
Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus
would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

"Qualitative superiority" here is meant to be what exactly?

I'm guessing qualitative superiority over Michael and Gabriel, just like the text states. Nothing too crazy.

Also, i just want to add that we are having this discussion because Kamachi never actually explained how the cosmology of the verse works, we have several different concepts in the cosmology and we don't know how exactly they are positioned in the hierarchy, so we could never do something like the official DC map or something more simple like the cosmology blogs for mamy different verses we have here in the wiki.

No doubt Toaru's cosmology is a mess. What I'm mostly focused on is establishing that there's higher spiritual realms MGs cant access. Or think of it this way: I'm exploring the implications of Ain being responsible for having created the Sephiroth/the Four Worlds.
We're gonna have the most haxed 3-A Ain Soph the board's ever seen.

 

[MrOMG]

@Churronzon Othinus is equal in power to Tangram. The same Tangram for the sake of which mathematical formula explaining the world, has been expanded an infinite number of times, and even so explain the existence of such a level failed.

 

[Churronzon]

Ah right. How do we get that canonized then.

 

[MrOMG]

Ah right. How do we get that canonized then.

This is already canon, since it was mentioned in the general official timeline as taking place in a parallel world.

And in the interview Kamachi said that espers interact with parallel worlds (he also added there that espers are limited to one multiverse, while Tangram can manipulate all multiverses).



“A Certain Magical Virtual-On” is a parallel world, but chronologically, it seems to be around immediately after the end of “Gremlin Arc” (MTL)

恐らく、今回のコラボ世界の中一番力があるのは
タングラムですよ。Index世界の超能力, 厳密にはあり得ない結果を自分でつかみ取るので、その時点で平行世界をを少し改変する力ではあるですけれど、それはあくまでも、Index 世界の理の中のことなんです。[ゴムひも理論]で説明できるものなんですが、あくまでも、一つの世界の中のゴムひもしか操れない。でも、タングラムは別で、世界と世界の間で入れ替えする力が持ってるから、どんな世界のゴムひももお構いなしに


Probably, in this collab world Tangram is the strongest one. Although, Esper’s from Index’ world, have the power to slightly change parallel world by using quantum theory which allows them to acquire impossible result, in the end, that’s just the nature of Index’ world. This might be explained better on “Elastic band theory”、but in the end, they can only manipulate one’ elastic band world. Tangram is different since it can manipulate any world’ elastic band thanks to having the power of change between worlds.

 

[XDragnoir]

I gotta ask again: what infinite strength feats/statements does Othinus have to warrant destroying an infinite-sized structure and qualify for even High 3-A?

Nothing like that is really needed to get to L2C, it's really just about destroying space+time and Othinus does exactly that.

Also, while it's true her power is creation, rather than destruction, it's still explicitly stated that she was creating a pile of rubble with all the phases, so she was destroying them with her creation powers, so it's the same result.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hey, hey, fanta here. Messing up the flow of this conversation by asking a simple question... Do you think we should make a user blog page to explain Imagine Breaker? Like how its functions, what it can negate, what it can't negate, the importance of the "pure world" in Imagine Breaker's negation, its potency, and stuff like that for Vs. Matches with Touma... Could also throw in World Rejector stuff as well since it is the counterpart of Imagine Breaker.

As for why I got this idea, well... I stumbled upon a page in which somebody created a user blog to explain a character's supernatural luck. Figured that this could also be done for IB and WR.

 

[Churronzon]

Hey, hey, fanta here. Messing up the flow of this conversation by asking a simple question... Do you think we should make a user blog page to explain Imagine Breaker? Like how its functions, what it can negate, what it can't negate, the importance of the "pure world" in Imagine Breaker's negation, its potency, and stuff like that for Vs. Matches with Touma... Could also throw in World Rejector stuff as well since it is the counterpart of Imagine Breaker.

Idk if we know enough about Imagine Breaker, but would we throw the NT22R Panacea theory in too? Does IB even need an explanation page beyond what is covered in Touma's profile?

I'm surprised there isn't something to describe Accelerator's holism tbh. That seems much more important since it's an important ability and unknown by many.
If Holism could be listed in the P&A, would it redirect to magic?

 

[Churronzon]

Also, while it's true her power is creation, rather than destruction, it's still explicitly stated that she was creating a pile of rubble with all the phases, so she was destroying them with her creation powers, so it's the same result.

From the vantage point of Touma, everything is destroyed yes. As long as we make the distinction clear that she's not destroying the phases themselves, directly. They still exist underneath the new phases created, and their contents don't change.

 

[Aseka]

Hey, hey, fanta here. Messing up the flow of this conversation by asking a simple question... Do you think we should make a user blog page to explain Imagine Breaker? Like how its functions, what it can negate, what it can't negate, the importance of the "pure world" in Imagine Breaker's negation, its potency, and stuff like that for Vs. Matches with Touma... Could also throw in World Rejector stuff as well since it is the counterpart of Imagine Breaker.

As for why I got this idea, well... I stumbled upon a page in which somebody created a user blog to explain a character's supernatural luck. Figured that this could also be done for IB and WR.

It would be great.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Idk if we know enough about Imagine Breaker, but would we throw the NT22R Panacea theory in too? Does IB even need an explanation page beyond what is covered in Touma's profile?

Hm. Honestly, am trying to get a feel of if it is a good idea or not from you guys first. And honestly, idk. But like... IB has a vast range of stuff that it can neg, it is different from quite a few other power nulls, so... am just indecisive about this.

 

[Churronzon]

Well it is the most-recognized ability of the series and you brought up a good point that there are specific stuff it does and doesn't negate, so I'm board with it actually.

 

[XDragnoir]

Several things to consider(although I haven't settled on an answer yet):

• It's stated that Othinus is not technically destroying any of the phases, including the "happy world". She is just creating the Black World over it. The newest phase takes precedence on how the world appears.

Already tried to answer that above.

• If Othinus destroyed all the phases, she would have unveiled and reached the Pure World, fulfilling Aleister's plan and likely killed all the Magic Gods. Yet, it didn't happen.

Not really, the Black World does pretty much confirm that without the phases there would be an empty void, rather than a direct doorway to the Pure World + she didn't destroy all phases as the Hidden World was still there.

• Othinus destroying all the phases would destroy her own Black World.

As i just said, i think the Black World is the result of destroying/removing the phases or maybe it's better to say it's the result of setting the phases to 0, it's still a number so part of them but it's a more simple state

• If she could peel the layer of phases one at a time, she would have no need for Imagine Breaker to find her world as she could spend her time scraping off phases rather than creating billions to torment Touma.

You know you just answered this yourself in the next points, right? Also, MGs can't revert phase additions, they can add more and that's it.

• If she destroyed all the phases, including heaven, why do they still exist after the events of NT9? She's not capable of remembering her original world, much less the exact specifications and contents of all the other phases, to recreate them.

That was explained in NT14, actually:

“But even you couldn’t figure anything out about the black one?”
“I wouldn’t say that… It’s like it’s on the tip of my tongue, and that’s what makes it so strange. I’m the god that constructed every last part of this ‘original world’. Although that was a lot like watching an infinitely-expanding snow crystal growing from a calculated core, so I didn’t actually design every little thing…”
___

So IB did most of the job.

• Doesn't Othinus needs Imagine Breaker to restore a previous phase?

Yes.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, I got something to do after I am done with my calcs and AP Revision CRT! ... A IB (+ WR) Explanation User Blog! On a side note, since you folks are more well-versed in ToAru than me in a lot of ways, I have to ask... what exactly did Touma negate in NT4 prior to his fight with Marian? A phase? An pocket/alternate dimension/universe? A mix of both?

 

[Zensum]

This convo is thonk but...

Dumbass Kamachi confused 16th Aethyr LEA with 26th Aethyr DES. Or js06 made a small typo. All the others are correct.

NT22 RAW:

「アェティール • アバター 。二 六 なる D E S」
“Aethyr Avatar – 26: DES.”

235 第三章（無題）World_Decomposer.
新約 とある魔術の禁書目録 第22巻

Sometimes js06 or whoever does the transcribing makes typos, especially in the more recent volumes, when working quickly.

 

[Churronzon]

I wasn't being serious. Thanks for the raws.

Where's NT6 Kakine? Why does Beetle 05 exist?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Where's NT6 Kakine? Why does Beetle 05 exist?

Enjoying life as a volleyball-kun. Same question I ask everyday... Seriously. Kakine is as wasted as a character as Index is.

 

[Churronzon]

Enjoying life as a volleyball-kun.

That's a different Kakine who was recreated with the original organs! He's the original!

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, I am here to say something regarding calc stuff again!

... Well, have to take back my comment about LV 5 capping at 7-C... Did my stuff again, and got a High 7-C result (for Misaka's thundercloud/weather feat). ... And as for LV6 Shift Misaka thundercloud/weather feat, do take this with a grain of salt, I got a 7-B result (if I assume that Misaka managed to make thunderclouds that covered all of Academy City), which is nice, I guess. Ignoring that, got a solid 7-C feat for them to scale to as well.

Also, the calcs I did with low-tier cast are likely going to move them away from the 9-B & 9-A and place them firmly in the upper Tier 8 (8-C/High 8-C/8-B/8-A), which is very nice and making me excited to see the day in which Touma can fight Homelander in the forums.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ehhhh

I know AP =/= DC, but i really don't like the idea of Touma of all people getting to 8A, that seems way too high

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

We'll see, we'll see! But one important thing to mention is that calculations don't typically adhere to a narrative's description of power levels with very few expectations if the series isn't SoL, and even, there can be feats that are way beyond the narative's description. [insert any series here that has characters that can be threatened by bullets but are listed as being 9-A and above]

Granted, I did mean High 8-C with a Possibly 8-B Rating, and not 8-A, tho. LV5 are likely going to get out of Tier 8-A tho, if everything going according to plan.

 

[Doggo]

Should we make civilization profiles for academy city and some magic side factions? maybe profiles for certain groups (like Gods rights seat)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Should we make civilization profiles for academy city and some magic side factions? maybe profiles for certain groups (like Gods rights seat)

Academy City, ye! Not really sure if any other magic side faction has enough for a civilization profile, tho. But... There is more than enough to make team profiles for God's Right Seat (although, they don't really fight as a team), ITEM, GROUP, and especially the Kamisato Faction.

 

[Doggo]

Academy City, ye! Not really sure if any other magic side faction has enough for a civilization profile, tho. But... There is more than enough to make team profiles for God's Right Seat (although, they don't really fight as a team), ITEM, GROUP, and especially the Kamisato Faction.

kamisato faction is gonna have a hundred members lmao

 

[Doggo]

Academy City, ye! Not really sure if any other magic side faction has enough for a civilization profile, tho. But... There is more than enough to make team profiles for God's Right Seat (although, they don't really fight as a team), ITEM, GROUP, and especially the Kamisato Faction.

it will be great if some academy city tech feats get calc...

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

kamisato faction is gonna have a hundred members lmao

*Harem Members

it will be great if some academy city tech feats get calc...

Heh. Will do, have made 19 users blogs/calcs (as of rn, and more will come). Granted, I am pretty sure that enough of AC's Tech has decent enough of descriptions in the LN to warrant them getting a high rating without a calc.

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, how exactly would we scale Mikoto's cloud feats to any other of her attacks?

We'd need a UES to have storm creation scaling to other stats, not sure even her lightning can scale to it.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Btw, how exactly would we scale Mikoto's cloud feats to any other of her attacks?

We'd need a UES to have storm creation scaling to other stats, not sure even her lightning can scale to it.

That is a fantastic question, Dragnoir. And my answer to that question is simple... Mikoto's Esper power is the one that is moving and/or generating stormclouds in the first place, plus, there is that one scene in the Railgun manga in which Mikoto shots up a thunderbolt in order to make a thundercloud, ergo, it only scales to Mikoto's AP... Probably.

 

[XDragnoir]

That is a fantastic question, Dragnoir. And my answer to that question is simple... Mikoto's Esper power is the one that is moving and/or generating stormclouds in the first place, plus, there is that one scene in the Railgun manga in which Mikoto shots up a thunderbolt in order to make a thundercloud, ergo, it only scales to Mikoto's AP... Probably.

IMO, the second point works, the first one doesn't.

There is nothing saying that two things generated by the same Personal Reality will have the same strength, Accel's Reflection for example is ridiculously stronger than his AP, Mikoto's own powers vary a lot in power, i agree her Iron Sand Puppet could scale to it as well as the Railgun Mikoto did with it, but scaling her Railgun and even most lightning attacks we actually see she using seems too much (tho the second point would make allow her strongest lightning scale to it i guess).

 

[Doggo]

should we use the index manga? the latest volumes have been faithful compare to the earlier ones. I find it contradictory that the anime is allowed when it skips a lot of content from certain arcs ( anime did not have fake aurelos and the serial killer from ot4) and then there's season 3....do i need to speak more?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye, to my knowledge, it is allowed as tertiary canon for calcs and stuff for the Index novels. Should mention that I also looked at it before, and there wasn't anything useful calc-wise there that isn't in the anime but better due to actually having timeframes and better angles for calculating.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

On a side note... Am pretty sure, via tertiary canon, we could, in theory, use the Railgun/Accelerator Anime... But there is literally no reason (unless we decide to count the filler arcs of Railgun & Railgun S as canon) since there is a manga that can be easily calc'ed instead unlike the Index LNs which are text-based and has very few if no illustrations that could be used for calcs.

 

[Doggo]

Ye, to my knowledge, it is allowed as tertiary canon for calcs and stuff for the Index novels. Should mention that I also looked at it before, and there wasn't anything useful calc-wise there that isn't in the anime but better due to actually having timeframes and better angles for calculating.

there are stuff for low-tiers tho

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Me knows that quite well. But read the entire thing (manga) twice over and didn't really find any feats for the low-tiers that aren't already in the anime but at a better angle and/or something closeby to make a calc work.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Uh. Has anybody noticed that Kamisato's page has been deleted since the 11th? Just checked it (finally gotten off my bum, and it is gone. Apparently, it has been deleted by a mod named Mr. Kambu for being a terrible quality page, and they probably thought so since they saw it was a low-tier profile with a High 1-C tiering attached to it. Gah. I was gearing up to make a profile revisions for GREMLIN (Othinus), but gotta try to do something about Kakeru's profile being nuked... Eh. No rush, I suppose.

 

[Doggo]

... Uh. Has anybody noticed that Kamisato's page has been deleted since the 11th? Just checked it (finally gotten off my bum, and it is gone. Apparently, it has been deleted by a mod named Mr. Kambu for being a terrible quality page, and they probably thought so since they saw it was a low-tier profile with a High 1-C tiering attached to it. Gah. I was gearing up to make a profile revisions for GREMLIN (Othinus), but gotta try to do something about Kakeru's profile being nuked... Eh. No rush, I suppose.

tbf it was horrible

 

[Doggo]

should thor scale to hel? he stomp the entirety of Gremlin and was considered its main combat unit

 

[Churronzon]

lmao.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

tbf it was horribletbf it was horrible

Tru, tru, but it is going to be a bother to remake everything from scratch, y'know?

should thor scale to hel? he stomp the entirety of Gremlin and was considered its main combat unit

Wasn't it off-screen, tho? For all we know, Thor could've bum-rushed them with Almighty Thor and battered them all with his fists while they couldn't fight back... Could probably scale his magic to Hel, though, but that is a topic for my CRT.

 

[Churronzon]

Tru, tru, but it is going to be a bother to remake everything from scratch, y'know?

It's on wayback machine.

How long until they find Yuiitsu's page?