Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yo. Looked at Mugino's profile, and realized something... Where was it ever stated that Mugino's Meltdowner caused subatomic destruction in canon?

 

[Doggo]

Yo. Looked at Mugino's profile, and realized something... Where was it ever stated that Mugino's Meltdowner caused subatomic destruction in canon?

I don't think so...I once tried searching but seen none

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm... Maybe it was when she and Accelerator fought Kakine? Saw something that stated Mugino annihilated one of Kakine's Dark Matter constructions (and it got that elementary particles thingy mentioned on his profile)... I think.

 

[XDragnoir]

Maybe it scales from other lasers in verse?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Would it? Am pretty sure the only other laser that Meltdowner could scale to is (probably) the laser from the Five-OVER Meltdowner, but that came way, way after Mugino's profile was created. So this is just confusing.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Am starting to get a feeling that Meltdowner's beams being capable of subatomic destruction comes from an interpretation during her team up with Accelerator against Post-Revival Kakine. Since she was able to put some Dark Matter clones down and vap some of 'em.

 

[XDragnoir]

Would it? Am pretty sure the only other laser that Meltdowner could scale to is (probably) the laser from the Five-OVER Meltdowner, but that came way, way after Mugino's profile was created. So this is just confusing.

There is also Kiyama Harumi's lasers, but i think the subatomic destruction has more to do with the laser's composition than statements.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

True, true. Can deal with Mugino's beams another time.

 

[Churronzon]

When Accel does the soul removal to Coronzon the Clonoth is called a "large tree" so i think it became a full tree the moment Accel added it to the universe.

It's still stated twice to be a young tree/sapling. If Accelerator reached "one step" into the domain of God, he would have become the science-side equivalent of a Magic God, Level 6.

“This is a tree made by human hands—a new tree not found in any legends or myths! It is
still a small sapling, but this new mystic power does not rely on the hand of god and
instead provides possibilities controlled by human hands. The artificial tree of Clonoth
carries no good or evil!! I shall become the guide of this young tree. Rejection of the Abyss,
leave us as I become one with my chosen master and cross that line. We shall arrive
beyond Keter! We need not fear the unknown territory that is no more than a series of
zeroes!!”

Large tree could be referring to the fact that it has 10 spheres and 22 paths(like the other two trees) and affects the Four Worlds, not referring to its age.

They actually scale to H1C physically too, as their own power would destroy the world im case they entered it.

Can someone link me the vsbattles page that makes Othinus place in the same tier as True MGs? I remember seeing it once. True MGs have infinite strength statements that I feel would allow them to keep their ratings; Othinus doesn't. But I assume it's due to the fact that she still manipulates an 11-d structure like the rest.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Huh, I thought Othinus w/Gungnir was the one who was purely High 1-C, and the True MGs just infinitely upscale above her?

 

[Churronzon]

That could be the case. I wanted to know the reasoning to be certain.

 

[XDragnoir]

Othinus has 11D hax + 11D AP with Gungnir, true MGs have infinite power compared to her and scale to 11D physicals for destroying the entire world by moving inside it.

 

[Iiliminal]

aiwass victims

 

[Churronzon]

Those are much simpler prerequisites than I expected. I guess all higher dimensions are automatically assumed to be infinite.

Is MFTL+ attack speed something that could be added to Aleister's Big Bang Bomb due to attacking in Planck time?
Can A.A.A really not be added to Aleister's profile as optional equipment just because he never technically wielded it?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Heh. Indeed, Elias, indeed... On a side note, I've calc'ed all of the remaining feats that I hadn't calc'ed, and I can safely say that all Level 5s ('sides Accelerator and Post Revival Kakine due to their OPness & Misaki due to her relative uselessness in direct combat) likely caps at 7-C, town level - even when I use the highest possible high-ball for 'em, my calcs just barely above baseline High 7-C.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Is MFTL+ attack speed something that could be added to Aleister's Big Bang Bomb due to attacking in Planck time?
Can A.A.A really not be added to Aleister's profile as optional equipment just because he never technically wielded it?

Maybe. You will likely need to ask the more knowledgable Mods about this subject.
And probably you can't add it since, as you said, Aleister never technically wielded it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Those are much simpler prerequisites than I expected. I guess all higher dimensions are automatically assumed to be infinite.

Which prerequisites?

They aren't, not sure what're you talking about here.

 

[Churronzon]

Which prerequisites?

They aren't, not sure what're you talking about here.

Oh, what proof do we have that the higher dimensions are infinite in size? I'm not aware of them.

Touma can't punch with H1C AP like his profile suggests.

If Touma knew about the 10th arrow and dodged it, would he win by punching her? I ask because people usually say that he can't negate Othinus's strength and Saint physicals and whatnot. Like what was Touma's plan for winning. Just punching sense into her?

(I’ll reach her no matter what!! It doesn’t matter where the final arrow comes from! I can
punch her after evading it or punch her before she can fire the arrow. Either way, I’ll end
this here!!)

Speaking of, I'm planning on removing Othinus' current justification for planet level durability, but I'll ask here first. Why is she planet level for shooting herself with her arrow when she didn't even tank it? She took the same exact damage that Touma did and instead just regen'd.

The final shot approached from directly behind Magic God Othinus.

And she did not move a single step.

In other words, the arrow unhesitatingly pierced through Othinus.

The final arrow broke through the girl’s entire body and assaulted Kamijou from the blind
spot directly in front of him.

This was nothing as kind as piercing or breaking him.

In the instant of impact, Kamijou Touma’s body was smashed to pieces from the chest
down. As his heart continued to writhe in midair, the tip of the arrow caught it and blasted
it to the farthest reaches of that world.

All that remained in that place were the boy’s arms, shoulders, and head.

At that level, this could only be called his remains.

Kamijou’s “body” spun at least twice through the air and Othinus caught it in one hand.

She had supposedly taken the exact same damage, but not so much as a single scratch
remained on her smooth skin. The destruction had indeed occurred, but the wounds had
immediately repaired themselves like watching the destruction of gelatin in reverse.

Hell if she tanked it, Touma wouldn't have even gotten hit in the first place.

I'd change the justification to something like stalemated Fiamma or something. If there is no justification, I'd just leave her at Unknown.

 

[XDragnoir]

Oh, what proof do we have that the higher dimensions are infinite in size? I'm not aware of them.

Dimensions don't need to be infinite to be accepted as valid for the tiering system.

If Touma knew about the 10th arrow and dodged it, would he win by punching her? I ask because people usually say that he can't negate Othinus's strength and Saint physicals and whatnot. Like what was Touma's plan for winning. Just punching sense into her?

IB would maybe be able to null her magic amped stats, but yeah it was a hopeless situation, it's very unlikely hitting Othinus would actually have any effect (mental or physical).

Speaking of, I'm planning on removing Othinus' current justification for planet level durability, but I'll ask here first. Why is she planet level for shooting herself with her arrow when she didn't even tank it? She took the same exact damage that Touma did and instead just regen'd.

Bruh, i hadn't seen that justification until now.

Her dura should scale to her AP, as she crushed IT with her bare hands iirc.

 

[Doggo]

Has anyone tried to calc the dust explosion Accel made in Ot2?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Adding onto what Dragon said, wasn't Touma's entire plan was hoping that endlessly losing to Othinus and his words would affect her to a degree in which she'd give an outcome that would be good for him? That, and it isn't like Touma has anything else at his disposal that wouldn't lead to him hitting her in some way... Ignoring the zoo that is beyond his right arm.

Has anyone tried to calc the dust explosion Accel made in Ot2?

Me. Only got 8-B results. So nothing note-worthy.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, tried to see if it would give any decent results for Touma, since he was near the blast (to the point that it grazed his back), but it only got 9-B to low-ish 9-A results due to inverse-square law. So nothing decent for him either.

 

[Churronzon]

Dimensions don't need to be infinite to be accepted as valid for the tiering system.

That's what I meant by the prerequisites being a lot more lenient than I expected.

IB would maybe be able to null her magic amped stats, but yeah it was a hopeless situation, it's very unlikely hitting Othinus would actually have any effect (mental or physical).

Guess you're right on the physical part.

That boy had not had any detailed plan or chance of winning.

But it had definitely been that boy who had provided her with this sense of loss.

Bruh, i hadn't seen that justification until now.

Her dura should scale to her AP, as she crushed IT with her bare hands iirc.

Wasn't that Invisible Thing weaker?

“It seems you produced decent results during the final stages of World War III, but is this
all I find when I open the lid?”

Damn, I'm also planning on slightly downgrading Invisible Thing vs Fiamma. Fiamma needs a suitable trial to emit planet busting force, and he didn't achieve it like he thought he did since he overestimated the amount of malice the world had. I'm assuming it's still in the same ballpark though.

“You said that right arm changes its ability based on the strength of your enemy. The stronger your enemy, the more strength it draws out. And to draw out the arm’s power to the maximum, you had to cause World War III to increase the people’s malice. You needed to complete your preparations to make the form of the enemy you must defeat clear.”

So what?

World War III was continuing even then. Tragedy created more tragedy and the spiraling malice would spread out to every corner of that planet. Fiamma’s holy power would increase in response to that ugly sight and he would purify the entire world once his preparations were complete.

“But that brings in another possibility,” Kamijou spun his right arm around as if to check on his shoulder.

The joint made a cracking noise as he did so.

“What if everyone’s hearts were not filled with malice to the extent you thought they were? Then you would not be able to draw out as much power as you expected.”

Fiamma’s eyebrows moved ever so slightly.

He stared past the broken wall and down at the distant surface of the earth. The golden light was shining down, but he could not see deep down at the surface. The dust and evaporated particles may have gathered together creating a screen. It was like the world was covered in a smokescreen emitted by the minds of the people killing each other in that war.

“…You’re making an incorrect assumption.”

Fiamma of the Right shook his third arm.

He tightly gripped the remote control spiritual item that supported him with a vast amount of knowledge.

Clear hatred resided in his eyes.

“This world is twisted. It can no longer be controlled. The four great elements that make up its core would have been utterly destroyed had I not corrected them. Remaining resources, opposing races, religious differences, lack of food, warring countries, destroyed borders, and everything else becomes intertwined creating a situation where each problem cannot be resolved in turn.”

“…”

“You’re saying I was not able to gather up as much malice as I assumed? Don’t make me laugh. That is nothing more than nonsense coming from someone who does not understand what malice is!! That great war is continuing even now and it is making everyone honest!! Nation, race, religion, gender, language, money, bloodline, talent, and all the other small thorns in people’s hearts are starting to be brought out into the world!! …Do you really want to believe that the depths of human hearts are that pure? What part of a human heart could be pure with the things they have done!?”

“It’s true that human hearts are not something to be viewed from the outside. Human nature may be something dripping with darkness. There may even be malice sleeping within me without my knowledge and I simply do not wish to believe it is there.”

Kamijou did not stop speaking there.

“But that is not all there is to human nature.”

“What…?”

“How can you say that there is only one aspect to what is inside people? How can you claim that there is dark malice within the depths of our hearts and that there is nothing else there?”

There was a deep darkness spreading throughout people’s hearts that nothing could be done about. Humans did not only think about making connections with others. They also possessed a nature that led them to distance themselves from others under many different pretexts such as protecting themselves, ensuring their own safety, and monopolizing things. Hurting others and rejecting others were completely natural actions to take.

However, there was also an even greater light sleeping within them at the same time. There was a virtue that people were normally too embarrassed to mention out loud. There was a justice that one did not feel the need to show off. Those things surely existed. They may not be visible, but they were definitely there.

It would be odd if they were not.

If there was truly nothing more than malice that led people to kill others, then humanity would have fought itself to destruction long ago. The fact that everyone was still living to that day and that history had continued on showed that the desire to connect with others was stronger than the desire to destroy others.

“I did not need a reason.” Kamijou Touma clenched his right fist anew. “It was not that I was strong. You merely failed on your own. Even with no reason, humans will fight for those that are important to them. Even with no special power, they will still fight because they wish to protect them. I was saved by that power.”

[...]

As if in response to Kamijou’s step forward, Fiamma of the Right spread his third arm out wide.

That surefire arm increased in destructive force in response to human malice.

Fiamma’s third arm that responded to malice had been weakened to the point that it
could be destroyed by even Imagine Breaker. Small pieces of virtue had spread like
ripples until they had filled the entire surface of the earth effectively breaking the core
that supported Fiamma’s power.

The power that made Fiamma of the Right special no longer existed.

It was doubtful whether he could use his direct attacks with his third arm or his evasion
using instantaneous horizontal movement over kilometers.

Given that, he had no way of stopping Kamijou Touma’s advance.

 

[Everything12]

Dimensions don't need to be infinite to be accepted as valid for the tiering system.

They have to be uncountably infinitely greater than the dimension lower than them to qualify for Tier 1. That or some form of equivalent comparison, such as reality-fiction.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Changing the topic away from stuff that makes my head, 1-C stuff, we really should fix Touma's speed section... Not an upgrade or anything, but more along the lines of removing the mention of his precog there since it doesn't fit the standard that other speed sections in other profiles have - and since Touma's precog isn't a speed amp (or speed downgrade) to his base speed nor can it actually be quantifiable, there is more reason to remove it.

 

[Churronzon]

Why do Shin Megami Tensei characters have a "higher with Willpower" rating? Is that an actual system that can be proven? How would I go about doing that?

For example, Anti Art Attachment says that it transmits Aleister's Willpower which killed the High Priest. I'm putting the quote out of quotes block since the text italicizes and bolds the word.

---

“Do you remember the life that was taken by destiny as if to smash the childish gears of a
desire to make the world a better place and to save every last member of the human race?
Do you remember my daughter’s name?”

The mummy High Priest received that will and his body was still pierced down the center.

[...]

Acting in his role as messenger, the golden retriever had finished conveying the willpower
of the “human” named Aleister.

---

“The Anti-Art Attachment is an application of medical technology, not military technology.
Perhaps I should call it an external cyborg attachment. And its main function is to create
a link to someone else’s body that allows you to remotely draw on their power. ...In other
words, you are not the one fighting. You are simply carrying something to its destination.
You are carrying the willpower of someone who thoroughly hates the Magic Gods.”

It's also in the A.A.A's profile

The suit can also apparently be used to transmit Aleister's willpower and use it to destroy the target, as when Noukan was using the drill against the High Priest the narration mentioned that there was a slight unevenness in the drill’s rotation in a pattern that conveyed the power of someone’s will, which took the form of something that destroyed the High Priest’s body from within. It's hinted this power allows the suit to kill immortals and other powerful beings, as Noukan used it to kill Zombie and he also stated it was designed to be used on beings like Aiwass, Fräulein Kreutune and Ladylee Tangleroad.

We've got entities manifesting and representing Will and willpower killing Magic Gods. Aleister's religion of Thelema is also all about finding your True Will by achieving self-realization and self-actualization, and there's the following from the LN.

“Magic is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.”
― Aleister Crowley

From “Magick in Theory and Practice” by Aleister Crowley

“Magic is the Science and Art of causing Change in consciousness to occur in conformity
with Will.”

―Dion Fortune
From “The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to High Magic” by C Cicero and ST
Cicero

"Will" being a power system also explains how Kuriba's doppelganger who doesn't have a soul persisted in Kuriba's dreams.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye, no, Willpower is actual in-verse thing in SMT. Something something humans have great potential and whatnot, i.e, main characters have plot armor that makes them grow stronger as the plot demands and serve as a way to explain protags power-ups (due to the fact almost every game in the SMT series is a JRPG). It also doesn't help that SMT & Persona (SMT's spinoff) were separate verses in the past that were merged together, giving everyone a shit-ton of hax and power-ups.

 

[Everything12]

Why do Shin Megami Tensei characters have a "higher with Willpower" rating? Is that an actual system that can be proven? How would I go about doing that?

Quotes to the effect of "Sufficiently powerful emotions/willpower can lead to showcasing power beyond what they are normally capable of." plus some feats is how it's normally done.

 

[XDragnoir]

They have to be uncountably infinitely greater than the dimension lower than them to qualify for Tier 1. That or some form of equivalent comparison, such as reality-fiction.

Ehhh

From what i know, some other verses (like Gurren Lagann) got to tier 1 without having infinite-sized dimensions and all that because they use string theory and their dimensions are of non-insignificant size.

 

[Everything12]

Ehhh

From what i know, some other verses (like Gurren Lagann) got to tier 1 without having infinite-sized dimensions and all that because they use string theory and their dimensions are of non-insignificant size.

String theory dimensions aren't actually applicable as the higher dimensions that Tier 1 uses. Ultima themself have said so.

The exception is branes, which are what Gurren Lagann use I believe and do have superiority that is equivalent to uncountable infinity.

 

[XDragnoir]

hmmm

i guess you can do a thread about it if you want.

 

[Dog3352]

Does anyone know where I can find information about this tree Accelerator used? I've seen people say that it's conceptual, and that it's presented as something architected (in the conceptual sense).

 

[Doggo]

Does anyone know where I can find information about this tree Accelerator used? I've seen people say that it's conceptual, and that it's presented as something architected (in the conceptual sense).

Misaka Network

The Misaka Network (ミサカネットワーク, Misaka Nettowaku?) is a brainwave network formed between the Sisters.[1][2] More than just a means for the clones to communicate and share information, the network also plays an important role in Aleister Crowley's plan and has a number of special aspects hidden...

toarumajutsunoindex.fandom.com

 

[Churronzon]

Does that mean Othinus is 3-A since there's no infinite strength scaling for her? Would that make True MGs around low 2-C?

Considering the fact that Othinus literally destroyed the very world that angels like Michael live in (thereby killing them too, by extension, I'm assuming), it doesn't make much sense for them to match her in terms of tiering, let alone supposedly be above her.

Coronzon exists in the Abyss of Da'at and isn't part of any phase, literally outside the reach of Magic Gods in a higher plane of existence. The same is true for the angels residing in each Sephirah. Specifically, it would be archangels according to every site I checked.

“I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth where the forces of evil gather. I am the Great
Demon hidden by the holy Sephiroth. I dwell in the same abyss as Da’at.”

“That is the inverted tree that stands in the opposite position of the tree of life protected by the angels.

“Of course. My job is to fix the circulation. And that creates the next age. Once, the majority of the Sephirah were under attack. If the Second Adam had not atoned with blood, the world would not have lasted this long.

Regardless of the types of angels that reside in the Sephirah, the MGs can't reach them either.

Archangel Gabriel existed since time immemorial compared to the Magic Gods who started out as human, only lived for a couple thousand years, and are stuck inside phases and the surface world.

There was the artificially-created Kazakiri Hyouka, there was Archangel Gabriel who had existed since time immemorial, and there was Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who had lurked in the depths of Academy City.

There's also the quote stating that MGs can't enter heaven.

“You don’t know? The world is divided into different categories: human, animal, deva,
preta. But there is no path allowed for those like us who are known as Magic Gods. Yet we
did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or
of heaven will not open for us.”

guess the one detail that could clear things up regarding this, which IIRC has never been addressed, is whether or not Othinus destroyed the Pure World during her rampage or not. I always assumed that she did considering that the Pure World is still a part of the totality of the existing world that Othinus destroyed.

The Pure World is beyond all the phases; she did not destroy it. The last fight still took place in the Black World phase.

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly
tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters...that is, the world of science that is
unaffected by religion. ...Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden
cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.”

Crowley's plan is to destroy every single phase and bring back the Pure World.

“I will...wipe out...all magic.”

Crowley’s body was torn to shreds, but he did not fall.

He had destroyed Westcott and Mathers, the true rulers of the Golden cabal. But his battle
was not yet over. There were still countless magicians in the cabal. No, he was looking at
something even larger than that.

“I will shatter every last phase and put an end to all mysticism. It can be helped and we
need not restrain our tears and bite our lip when faced with tragedy. I will bring back the
pure world in which everyone can feel anger like normal and question it all like normal!!”

What did Kamachi mean by this. More qualitative superiority stuff I guess.

“Great Demon Coronzon. She is using the power stored up inside herself. Her own power is more stable than using one of the weaker ley lines. And look how much power that is… She must be a transcendent lifeform belonging to a different pyramid than Michael or Gabriel.”

 

[Iiliminal]

but magic gods can control every phase and every dimension

 

[Churronzon]

Both of those things you've described are part of the surface of the Four Worlds. Magic Gods have never been shown manipulating or accessing higher planes of the Sephiroth, like Coronzon has.

 

[XDragnoir]

Does that mean Othinus is 3-A since there's no infinite strength scaling for her? Would that make True MGs around low 2-C?

At her lowest tier Othinus would still be Low 2C for reshaping the universe and Gungnir can destroy it, TMGs would then be L2C too.

With scaling to Tangram they'd all be 2A.

Coronzon exists in the Abyss of Da'at and isn't part of any phase, literally outside the reach of Magic Gods in a higher plane of existence. The same is true for the angels residing in each Sephirah. Specifically, it would be archangels according to every site I checked. Regardless of the types of angels that reside in the Sephirah, the MGs can't reach them either.

Ehhhh, no? The Archangels are literally in the heaven phase, we know that because of Fiamma and the whole WW3 situation.

Also iirc it is never made clear if Othinus destroyed Coronzon during NT8 and her whole fight with Touma, we only know that the True MGs, Aiwass and Will survived and each of them for reasons that have nothing to do with the Sephirot or whatever.

Archangel Gabriel existed since time immemorial compared to the Magic Gods who started out as human, only lived for a couple thousand years, and are stuck inside phases and the surface world.

Ehhhh, contradicted by the sheer fact phases are stated to be a byproduct of human religions.

Also, i really doubt "time immemorial" is specifically before humans came to be or whatever, it is just flowery language really.

There's also the quote stating that MGs can't enter heaven.

That quote literally says that the path allowed for humans isn't valid for MGs, that's kinda strange given someone else was syaing in the previous page that MGs were at the end of the day just humans.

But more importantly, this has nothing to do with power/tiering, we have no idea how death and the afterlife actually work in practice in Toaru and you can't just ignore that it's stated "the Pure Land or heaven" so it is talking about them as places to go after dying, it isn't placing heaven in a higher position than what MGs are allowed to go or something like that.

What did Kamachi mean by this. More qualitative superiority stuff I guess.

"Qualitative superiority" here is meant to be what exactly?

 

[MrOMG]

「御便堕し」
本来「魂の位」 が違うために同じ 世界に存在することのない 「御使=天使が、人間の位に落ちてきてし 、まったために起きた、人間の「外目見と「中身」が入れ替わってしまう現 象。世界中がその影響にあること また、中途半選ながら天使の召映と も言える現象を起こしていることか らも、大規模な術式であると予想さ れる。影響から送れているのは、「幻 「想殺し (イマジンプレイカー) を持 つ上条や、結界によって不完全ながら 瀬れている土御門たちのみである。

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, i just want to add that we are having this discussion because Kamachi never actually explained how the cosmology of the verse works, we have several different concepts in the cosmology and we don't know how exactly they are positioned in the hierarchy, so we could never do something like the official DC map or something more simple like the cosmology blogs for mamy different verses we have here in the wiki.

 

[Aseka]

Also, i just want to add that we are having this discussion because Kamachi never actually explained how the cosmology of the verse works, we have several different concepts in the cosmology and we don't know how exactly they are positioned in the hierarchy, so we could never do something like the official DC map or something more simple like the cosmology blogs for mamy different verses we have here in the wiki.

Yeah, the most explained cosmology part from Kamachi only the Phases, and even that, we don't know if the Phases have hierarchy or not.