Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

we both ended up agreeing that Asta wins since he's more popular than accelerator so dw guys

Accel has more favorites in My Anime List than Asta, so this isn't a valid wincon.

 

[SemiRaedi]

Accel has more favorites in My Anime List than Asta, so this isn't a valid wincon.

This argument was done on Twitter

 

[Axscell]

Random question: I've got something I wanted to clear up regarding Toaru's dimensions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the way teleporters in the verse travel suggest that there's more than just the 11 dimensions that they currently have, given how even the dimension that they travel through (which is taken as the higher cap) itself is a spatial dimension? If I'm not mistaken, when talking about dimensions, there's supposed to be (in the case of High 1-C) 10 spatial dimensions, with 1 temporal dimension (could vary, but point is, there's supposed to be at least one temporal dimension). But it seems that in Toaru's case, even the 11th dimension is a spatial dimension, suggesting that there's a 12th temporal dimension. I think if 11th dimensional was temporal, we would have something like Immeasurable Speed teleporters via moving through time (which isn't really consistent with the verse). Or is it possible for all higher dimensions to be spatial, with no temporal dimension? If I'm not wrong on this, they should probably have at least 12 dimensions (11 spatial + 1 temporal), right?

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Interesting theory, @Accel. yeah maybe. Good luck convincing some users here though.

I'm Pretty annoyed about that recent MG revision. Sorry in advance but i'm going to go on a mini rant here.

Every supporter bar DT disagrees with his straight up wrong interpretation of the text regarding the hidden world and it gets put through. Staff thread didn't even occur to discuss this and the speed got put at unknown. Awesome.

Oh, but it gets even better.

1 person suggested At least sub rel speed and it got put on the profile aswell without the slightest discussion. It wasn't even a discussion to be honest. It was two people saying, "At least Sub rels good right?" "Yeah sure".

Do you think at least sub rel is a accurate reflection of their full power when less than a fraction of infinity is also that speed? I seriously wonder if some of the supposed LN readers here actually read the source material. And if they do, whether they read it upside down.

I feel bad for any actual supporters who exist solely on this site and not elsewhere. The Grass is greener on the other side my friends. Amino, Reddit, Spacebattles, try elsewhere. Literally anywhere else. I promise you will have more fruitful discussions in which outcomes are more dependent on your ability to put fourth your points, and less your status or rep within the community.

This is the fundamental issue that plagues this site and will for the rest of time. Some users have a ridiculous amount of sway over a franchise they're known for being a "Expert" or "reliable" on. It's near impossible to win a debate because of their status or "reputation" within the site, Regardless of the evidence put fourth. All you need to do to have your narrative be seen as the prevailing one is is just continue the debate. Really that's all you got to do, because you will get bailed out by other staff members somewhere down the discussion line who think you seem like a reliable source of info, so you must be correct here.

Not that I was ever really active on this site, but i'm done with the site now. I shared the thread around some Toaru communities and we got a good laugh out of it atleast. The best thing to result from the thread.

 

[XDragnoir]

Do you think at least sub rel is a accurate reflection of their full power when less than a fraction of infinity is also that speed?

Their two downgrades (Zombie's and then Aleister's) were never said to affect their speed tho, it would also be really strange that Aleister fought on par with one or even more infinite/immeasurable beings and then is unable to speed blitz everyone else in the verse, and yeah i really wanted to have an "at least sub-rel, possibly infinite" rating, but whatever.

Also, Spacebattles is a place i really don't want to talk about Toaru, i have seen more than once someone using Accel vs Neph to say he defeated MG tier beings, when she was massively nerfed and didn't even have the one use phase manipulation, for real, wtf?

 

[Malox1696]

1 thing for sure is that second key is the same as othinus so they should at least have the same speed

 

[XDragnoir]

1 thing for sure is that second key is the same as othinus so they should at least have the same speed

Yeah, we kinda forget to add the 10 nanoseconds reaction speed to all 5Bs or above (literally all of them scale to eachother and thus should have it).

 

[Accelerate420]

Toaru CRT's are a joke most of the time now with people who don't have a good understanding of writing nuance trying to debate it but that's a lot of verses on the site anyways, so maybe I'm just being too harsh.

Actually scratch that I'm not being harsh at all, people just have biases they can't let go of.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Does anybody else feel we should decide whether or not Toaru profiles for Japanese characters follow Western or Eastern name order and then make them all consistent in that regard?

Bump in this regard.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump in this regard.

I think i said it before, i think at least the kiharas should be inverted, way too many of them.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

I think i said it before, i think at least the kiharas should be inverted, way too many of them.

And nobody else tried to continue the topic.
CRT to do, with my arbitrary opinion in it then?

 

[Axscell]

Random question, but was it ever stated who created the hidden world? I mean, the most straightforward and reasonable answer would be the MG's, but I don't remember it ever being explicitly specified. It would also beg the question, why didn't they just recreate it after it was lost.

 

[XDragnoir]

Random question, but was it ever stated who created the hidden world? I mean, the most straightforward and reasonable answer would be the MG's, but I don't remember it ever being explicitly specified. It would also beg the question, why didn't they just recreate it after it was lost.

Since they didn't recreate it then they probably didn't create it as well, maybe it existed since the start and they just found it.

 

[Malox1696]

Since they didn't recreate it then they probably didn't create it as well, maybe it existed since the start and they just found it.

They didn't recreate it cause it was no longer hidden the moment aleister breached it

 

[XDragnoir]

They didn't recreate it cause it was no longer hidden the moment aleister breached it

Actually:

Spoiler: NT12

The three presences intentionally all looked in the same direction.

That produced directionality in the all-encompassing and heavy darkness.

That directionality took the form of depth and finally defined the entire space.

The woman called Nephthys sang in a sweet voice that seemed to enchant the brain of all who heard it.

“Hello, world.”

A heavy metallic crash burst out.

“Hello, science side.”

A vertical line of thin, thin white light appeared in the surface of darkness.

“Hello, Academy City.”

Double-doors opened.

The three Magic Gods filled their lungs with the air of Academy City.

That's after their battle with Aleister and before they say:

“Dealing with the primary issue is fine, but that is going to be taking action soon. Now that we’re existing here in the real world, we’ll be detected before long.”

So they were indeed inside a darkness, even tho it wasn't the Hidden World, before they opened the door and stepped in the real world, so they probably created it after Aleister destroyed the Hidden world to not step outside before Zombie's spell was complete.

 

[Alsotime]

Does the amount times needed to kill a member of true gremlin count as a form of resurrection?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Pretty unclear. I think technically, following the explanation given, it is more that just an infinitesimal part of them gets killed so that they don't die to begin with.

 

[Alsotime]

Pretty unclear. I think technically, following the explanation given, it is more that just an infinitesimal part of them gets killed so that they don't die to begin with.

Would that count as damage reduction then?

 

[DontTalkDT]

It doesn't really reduce the damage either, though.
It's one of those weird gap abilities that has no really good equivalence in our standard list of abilities. (in part because the details on the mechanism are pretty limited)

 

[Everything12]

Large Size or Type 8 I'd guess, too late for me to figure out which.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Large Size in the higher dimensional sense?
One could also consider it something like avatar creation... well, IMO it's least confusing to just let it be an explanation on the profile.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, Avatar creation makes some sense if we use this:

You could just keep killing and killing us without end. Like a matryoshka doll or an onion, you would have to fight a nearly eternal battle to completely kill us.

Maybe avatar creation, maybe just "clone creation" as they aren't really immortal, they are just boring to fully kill.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I thought about avatar creation, too. What in the end stopped me of saying it is that, is that avatar creation implies that there is some true self somewhere else that is creating their bodies as avatars.

Maybe, duplication would fit... but then, do the other layers really exist that independently? Isn't it more of a metaphysical thing?


Other topic: From the next volume's images it's gonna be lit. Let's keep this spoiler free until the translation is finished, as usual.

 

[Alsotime]

I mean, Avatar creation makes some sense if we use this:

You could just keep killing and killing us without end. Like a matryoshka doll or an onion, you would have to fight a nearly eternal battle to completely kill us.

Maybe avatar creation, maybe just "clone creation" as they aren't really immortal, they are just boring to fully kill.

It seems a bit like Hercules from fate with his nine lives and that qualifies is a form of ressurection as well, maybe the same logic could be applied here?

 

[XDragnoir]

It seems a bit like Hercules from fate with his nine lives and that qualifies is a form of ressurection as well, maybe the same logic could be applied here?

Well, yeah it seems to be closer to... actually, the resurrection Noble Phantasm is called God Hand, Nine Lives is the NP that represents his skill with all kinds of weapons or something like that, but yeah, the MGs seem closer to it than to Duplication (we never see a second body or anything like that) or Avatar Creation (there isn't an abstract/original/whatever version of them somewhere else) so i guess you can do a CRT to add type 4 for their nerfed keys, no problems IMO.

 

[Zensum]

Some spotty parts, but GT5 was pretty solid overall imho.

 

[Accelerate420]

I think Qliphah was the best part of GT5.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

The best part was unquestionably Tessou.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Is it me or was Carrier the one with most feats here? Although personally I might be most hyped about Frillsand #G's destruction now being passive...

Aside from making a Carrier profile and updating Frillsand with a second key, I guess we gotta create Alice's profile. I'm kinda undecided what the tier is concerned. They said she affects the whole world, but that's pure hax, isn't it?

 

[Accelerate420]

Is it me or was Carrier the one with most feats here? Although personally I might be most hyped about Frillsand #G's destruction now being passive...

Aside from making a Carrier profile and updating Frillsand with a second key, I guess we gotta create Alice's profile. I'm kinda undecided what the tier is concerned. They said she affects the whole world, but that's pure hax, isn't it?

Qliphah got some good feats in the form of being able to move to different phases (Imaginary District) and having someone's history appear on her dress. In terms of vsb that would make Qliphah harder to hit and also give Accel extra intelligence gathering feats on opponents.

Even if it's pure hax you have profiles on the website that list hax as potency I:E Blazblue's 'low 1-C with hax' so it should be fine.

 

[XDragnoir]

Qliphah got some good feats in the form of being able to move to different phases (Imaginary District) and having someone's history appear on her dress. In terms of vsb that would make Qliphah harder to hit and also give Accel extra intelligence gathering feats on opponents.

Even if it's pure hax you have profiles on the website that list hax as potency I:E Blazblue's 'low 1-C with hax' so it should be fine.

Iirc, their hax have destructive potential like EEing multiverses and things like that (iirc, long time since i even got close to BB in the wiki) while Alice could have it but we don't really know, so far it's just planetary range.

Anyway, i guess Unknown, possibly 5B would fit Alice well enough until we have more info about her, at the start it's said her specs would be even with Anna's or even above it.


That aside, IMO this was the best GT Volume so far, from best to worst i think it is 5-3-2-1-4

 

[Accelerate420]

Iirc, their hax have destructive potential like EEing multiverses and things like that (iirc, long time since i even got close to BB in the wiki) while Alice could have it but we don't really know, so far it's just planetary range.

Anyway, i guess Unknown, possibly 5B would fit Alice well enough until we have more info about her, at the start it's said her specs would be even with Anna's or even above it.


That aside, IMO this was the best GT Volume so far, from best to worst i think it is 5-3-2-1-4

No, you're high balling it. It's more like Phenomena Intervention joins possibilities over eachother and asserts one reality over the other (I:E you don't exist in this possibility so die) since it's based off quantum stuff

 

[DontTalkDT]

Iirc, their hax have destructive potential like EEing multiverses and things like that (iirc, long time since i even got close to BB in the wiki) while Alice could have it but we don't really know, so far it's just planetary range.

Anyway, i guess Unknown, possibly 5B would fit Alice well enough until we have more info about her, at the start it's said her specs would be even with Anna's or even above it.

It should be said that she has seemingly lightyears of range

The general public is apparently abuzz with talk about water and traces of life being discovered on a planet dozens of lightyears away, but how do you think that got there? That girl got upset and started throwing her ceramic pot, teacakes, and whatnot.

I don't think it was said that her stats are comparable:

Also, there’s no point in listing out and comparing your specs. You cannot defeat Alice on a much more fundamental level than that.

Sounds more like she said: "Alice is hax as **** so stats are irrelevant."

 

[Zensum]

Is it me or was Carrier the one with most feats here? Although personally I might be most hyped about Frillsand #G's destruction now being passive...

Aside from making a Carrier profile and updating Frillsand with a second key, I guess we gotta create Alice's profile. I'm kinda undecided what the tier is concerned. They said she affects the whole world, but that's pure hax, isn't it?

I think tier Unknown is good for now unless you want to scale her up from Anna/her many world destroying statements. Kamachi was stressing her psychological defenses (Hedgehog, Flamingo, Cricket bat, The Executioner) are just add ons to save her enemy from having to actually face her. It's unclear if it's referring to Live Adventures in Wonderland in a battle context or something worse.

On that matter, do we count the feats that occurred in Handcuffs easy mode?

 

[XDragnoir]

No, you're high balling it. It's more like Phenomena Intervention joins possibilities over eachother and asserts one reality over the other (I:E you don't exist in this possibility so die) since it's based off quantum stuff

Fair

It should be said that she has seemingly lightyears of range

Well, Wonderland so far seems to affect only Earth unless i forgot something, but with that feat we can add "can throw objects light years away".

I don't think it was said that her stats are comparable:

Sounds more like she said: "Alice is hax as **** so stats are irrelevant."

Meh, just unknown is kinda meh, i guess the best we can do other than that is scale her above Frillsand then.

 

[LazyHunter]

GT5 was great, it was cool to see characters I'd thought would be 1-volume characters get more time beyond small cameos or namedrops, especially so soon.

Alice is kind of hard to place, given we only see her Wonderland spell, the super throw feat and various automatic defenses, although the Executionar was cool. She and the novel implies she could have just taken the changes she made in her world or any other changes Touma would want and applied them to the real world. Aradia also believes Anna to be incapable of beating Alice, but she might not be the best judge there given how Anna messed with her plans by getting Alice interested in Toum. I agree witth DontTalkDT that Aradia's statement sounds like it could be just unfair hax instead of raw power.

As for feats inside Live Adventures in Wonderland, I think anything not called out as strange or explicitly stated/shown to be an alteration of the norm should be valid as long as there aren't contradictions, as the spell takes the real world as the basis. So Touma doesn't get feats from the miraculous survivals he points out, Frillsand #G likely cannot shoot super lightning at people, given that's explicitly Alice restraining and changing her power to something Touma could deal with instead of "you see me, I kill you"; nor does Houfu get the ability to punch ghosts, since that was so forced even Frillsand noticed something was interfering with her.

Kazakiri gets Non-Physical Interaction for destroying Hasuu, right?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Frillsand #G likely cannot shoot super lightning at people, given that's explicitly Alice restraining and changing her power to something Touma could deal with instead of "you see me, I kill you"

I agree with most suggested restriction except that one. Alice said the following:

“The girl didn’t give Frillsand #G a power she doesn’t really have. That was simply the result of emphasizing just one aspect of her. Once she has access to all of her power, you don’t stand a chance against her.”

Alice limited Frillsands power to the easier to fight stuff, but Frillsand should be able to do the things she did regardless. Well, except maybe the memory sharing that Touma said wouldn't work out without having the same brain.

Kazakiri gets Non-Physical Interaction for destroying Hasuu, right?

Yeah, she should.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with most suggested restriction except that one. Alice said the following:

Alice limited Frillsands power to the easier to fight stuff, but Frillsand should be able to do the things she did regardless. Well, except maybe the memory sharing that Touma said wouldn't work out without having the same brain.

I understood that as Alice having shifted how her power work, but not its nature, since the entire basis of artificial ghost appears to be related to electricity given the extra info we got in this volume. So she can electrocute people, but it would be more similar to how her powers normally work in that the victim would spontaneously be electrocuted, and not in that she shoots a physical lightning bolt like Mikoto.

I can see it the other way too, though.

 

[Zensum]

As for feats inside Live Adventures in Wonderland, I think anything not called out as strange or explicitly stated/shown to be an alteration of the norm should be valid as long as there aren't contradictions, as the spell takes the real world as the basis.

With Youen, do we count the reflected light 3D image projection created from insect coloration/wing transparency or the "flying backpacks" using parasitic enlargement? The latter was described to be more fantastical IIRC.

We could also catalogue everything and note X ability was shown in Live Adventures in Wonderland if that isn't too much of a hassle.

 

[LazyHunter]

With Youen, do we count the reflected light 3D image projection created from insect coloration/wing transparency or the "flying backpacks" using parasitic enlargement? The latter was described to be more fantastical IIRC.

We could also catalogue everything and note X ability was shown in Live Adventures in Wonderland if that isn't too much of a hassle.

The illusion was the more farfetched thing to me personally, given the statement that she could make the image bigger than skyscrapers. But then again this is the same series where apparently people can tame rattlesnakes and teach them to gather into human shapes and shake their rattles in the exact way to replicate a human voice, so what do I know?

The parasitic enlargement of the roach and the butterfly should be fine, Kaai did the same trick with a crow in her fight with Kuroko in GT3, so we know the technique is possible for the twins.

I think noting in the Techniques section that "this power/application/equipment/feat was only seen being used/done in Live Adventures in Wonderland, so it's not 100% confirmed if the characters can replicate it outside given the nature of said magic" for anything we're not sure should be fine.