Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

Finished reading GT 6.

Is it me or are Transcendents incredibly overhyped? Even giving the goddess the benefit of the doubt since we have not really seen her last form, there is no way the Bolognese Succubus would defeat the entire magic side unless they just sit there and do nothing to retaliate.
Not even to mention the 'they could have stopped Othinus, but didn't, since they couldn't recreate the world'-thing.

I would have bought it for Alice, but for the rest? Nah.

Ehhhh

You're saying this (mainly the Othinus part) with in-verse logic or with vs battle logic?

Cause like, Aleister could fight with the MGs and he isn't a tier 1 reality warper or anything like that. Like, Triple Reload can one shot a magic god, Othinus has no resistance to Cold Mistress iirc and apparently these are just their basic spells not their "true forms/final attack" so reality warping aside they may really defeat Gungnir Othinus

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ehhhh

You're saying this (mainly the Othinus part) with in-verse logic or with vs battle logic?

Cause like, Aleister could fight with the MGs and he isn't a tier 1 reality warper or anything like that. Like, Triple Reload can one shot a magic god, Othinus has no resistance to Cold Mistress iirc and apparently these are just their basic spells not their "true forms/final attack" so reality warping aside they may really defeat Gungnir Othinus

We don't see Aradia's final form, but I don't think the Succubus has one or she would have used it before getting lethally injured, no?

What you bring up is kinda what I mean when I say it's under the assumption the opponent wouldn't do anything in defense or retaliation, which makes the entire hype just the biggest technicality ever.
Aradia would, in practice, never had the chance to snowball Triple Reload until it could actually stop Othinus (other than Crowley, whose techniques are more readily available), while the Succubus would definitely have just gotten blinked from existence regardless of Cold Mistress. Portraying it as them being a realistic threat to Othinus is just laughable IMO.
If you go on that level of technicality, Salome could likewise theoretically built up a chain large enough to defeat Othinus. Irivika could theoretically take down Othinus just as much as the Succubus with her mind techniques. Yet even the nerfed magic gods were considered basically undefeatable by the standards of such normal magicians.
In that regard the 'defeat the entire magic side' statement kinda just rings empty. Their magic is really not that special by what we already know from magic side magicians (Divine Punishment vs Cold Mistress for example) and, even if we put vsbattles indexing aside, it's more than obvious that they can't match saints in strength, speed and durability.

Btw. what confuses me about the Othinus statement is how it is said that they didn't stop Othinus "in that dark space" because they couldn't rebuild the world... Like, the dark space refers to the alpha world, doesn't it? How would they even have had the opportunity to do that at that point as they shouldn't even exist then...

 

[XDragnoir]

We don't see Aradia's final form, but I don't think the Succubus has one or she would have used it before getting lethally injured, no?

What you bring up is kinda what I mean when I say it's under the assumption the opponent wouldn't do anything in defense or retaliation, which makes the entire hype just the biggest technicality ever.
Aradia would, in practice, never had the chance to snowball Triple Reload until it could actually stop Othinus (other than Crowley, whose techniques are more readily available), while the Succubus would definitely have just gotten blinked from existence regardless of Cold Mistress. Portraying it as them being a realistic threat to Othinus is just laughable IMO.
If you go on that level of technicality, Salome could likewise theoretically built up a chain large enough to defeat Othinus. Irivika could theoretically take down Othinus just as much as the Succubus with her mind techniques. Yet even the nerfed magic gods were considered basically undefeatable by the standards of such normal magicians.
In that regard the 'defeat the entire magic side' statement kinda just rings empty. Their magic is really not that special by what we already know from magic side magicians (Divine Punishment vs Cold Mistress for example) and, even if we put vsbattles indexing aside, it's more than obvious that they can't match saints in strength, speed and durability.

Btw. what confuses me about the Othinus statement is how it is said that they didn't stop Othinus "in that dark space" because they couldn't rebuild the world... Like, the dark space refers to the alpha world, doesn't it? How would they even have had the opportunity to do that at that point as they shouldn't even exist then...

I mean, yeah it's really strange that she didn't use her own final form but the Transcendents may all have that due to how this quote is worded:

The beautiful woman standing there may have only been a temporary form and this was the true essence of the Transcendent.

What had happened to Triple Reload? And the ointment at her feet?

Perhaps she had thrown all of that away and a completely new transcendent magic was about to come his way.


Like, transcendent magic and true essence do look like something that all of them would have and maybe they don't use it due to possible side effects, like, Aradia says:

“No more…holding back! Risk 4: Releasing triple seal – leaving human territory. Activating the triple goddess within my flesh!!”

That doesn't really seems like a power that would get her to saint level at most or something basic like that, even more when you take into account all the hype the Transcendents have.

Ehhhh, yeah it's really just a big technicality, i think we actually agree on this part, but also, Divine Punishment isn't a normal magic side spell, everyone in God's Right Side had really specific Thelema spells of their own, they're not part of what the magic side will have on average even when including grimoires.

As for that part about killing Othinus i think it (at best) makes sense when taking into account their final forms and although it says "transcendents had killed Othinus" it could very well be talking mostly about Alice.


Anyway, IMO we don't really have enough info to judge if it all makes sense right now

 

[Zensum]

Btw. what confuses me about the Othinus statement is how it is said that they didn't stop Othinus "in that dark space" because they couldn't rebuild the world... Like, the dark space refers to the alpha world, doesn't it? How would they even have had the opportunity to do that at that point as they shouldn't even exist then...

I think it's just a hypothetical. If they engaged in battle with 100% Othinus and managed to win surely all that would be left is Black World and they would have no way to create a new world. They ended up dying because of their cabals indecisiveness and reluctance to play a card that would lead there. They could have had a method of surviving the destruction, but it wouldn't mean anything. Succubus goes on about this when she discusses how every member has to agree before an action that changes the world can be made, which is why Anna splitting their cabal into killers/rescuers was unprecedented for them. TBH based on what we've seen maybe the entire cabal (bar Alice) together could fight Othinus due to how many unknowns and variances between members, but if Aradia, Mary and Succubus are considered stronger members of the cabal, I wouldn't buy any of them 1v1ing Othinus at all.

As for them individually being able to rival the Magic Side, it has to be super context heavy. I agree I don't think Succubus is beating the entire Magic Side with just her practical power.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ehhhh, yeah it's really just a big technicality, i think we actually agree on this part, but also, Divine Punishment isn't a normal magic side spell, everyone in God's Right Side had really specific Thelema spells of their own, they're not part of what the magic side will have on average even when including grimoires.

While, yes, divine punishment wasn't a regular spell, the statement wasn't "they could defeat any regular magician", which would have been somewhat more reasonable, but that they can defeat the entire magic side.

As for that part about killing Othinus i think it (at best) makes sense when taking into account their final forms and although it says "transcendents had killed Othinus" it could very well be talking mostly about Alice.


Anyway, IMO we don't really have enough info to judge if it all makes sense right now

Eh, personally I just kinda don't like it how Kamachi has started throwing Magic God hype around. Even if the succubus actually had some technique like that, giving her that hype and then showing such an underwhelming performance is kinda bad in my book.

Btw., it seems unlikely in retrospect, but when I first heard how the cabal split I suspected the archetype controller might be at work.

 

[XDragnoir]

Eh, personally I just kinda don't like it how Kamachi has started throwing Magic God hype around. Even if the succubus actually had some technique like that, giving her that hype and then showing such an underwhelming performance is kinda bad in my book.

Well, he has been doing that since NT, World Rejecter, Flaming Sword, i think the Secret Chiefs also had 1 or 2 mentions during NT, and even some of the Golden Dawn members were said to be able to fight with MGs no?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, he has been doing that since NT, World Rejecter, Flaming Sword, i think the Secret Chiefs also had 1 or 2 mentions during NT, and even some of the Golden Dawn members were said to be able to fight with MGs no?

That's true and I don't like that either. Although much of those were more justified.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw. to get to vsbattles stuff:
For now transcendents are probably small building level (succubus surviving the room explosion) and supersonic (succubus dodging the glass bullets).

 

[XDragnoir]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kamijou-touma-quick-speed-revision.135432/

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmmm... vaporizing that 500kg carbon fibre wing in the last railgun chapter could upgrade Misaka's railgun
At least if this page is reliable and we take heat change to have to go above the melting point (which I'm not 100% sure of, because carbon fiber apparently burns at above 400°C or so, but that's apparently due to secondary materials so it might not matter for straight-up vaporization).
(500*1000)g * 800J/g*K * (3657 °C - 20°C) = 1.4548e12J which is 8-A.

 

[Iiliminal]

hello, quick question why doesn't toaru qualify for 1-b or even high 1-b?

with the whole number stuf and wave functions

also about how there are at least 11 dimensions

 

[DontTalkDT]

11 dimensions is what qualifies them for their current rating.

Wave functions don't mean anything for tiering.

The whole numbered dimensions stuff doesn't actually indicate that for every whole number a dimension exists. Just that all that exist can be cut by Curtana.

 

[Iiliminal]

Ok, thanks

so toaru isnt 11 + 1 ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Don't see where the +1 would come from.

 

[Iiliminal]

well the argument would be 11 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal

which I don’t agree with but I see that argument sometimes

 

[DontTalkDT]

Think the temporal is probably included in the 11?

 

[Iiliminal]

imo yes

 

[XDragnoir]

Hmmm... vaporizing that 500kg carbon fibre wing in the last railgun chapter could upgrade Misaka's railgun
At least if this page is reliable and we take heat change to have to go above the melting point (which I'm not 100% sure of, because carbon fiber apparently burns at above 400°C or so, but that's apparently due to secondary materials so it might not matter for straight-up vaporization).
(500*1000)g * 800J/g*K * (3657 °C - 20°C) = 1.4548e12J which is 8-A.

So... Are you going ahead with that or nah?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So... Are you going ahead with that or nah?

Made a calc group thread about it a while ago but got no reply yet.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, would it be possible to calc the KE of any of L6S attacks? The ones she throws massive amounts of rubble or iron sand.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also, would it be possible to calc the KE of any of L6S attacks? The ones she throws massive amounts of rubble or iron sand.

To some degree? Yeah. Worst case via assumed timeframes. Would it end up higher than the current ranking? Don't think so.

 

[XDragnoir]

To some degree? Yeah. Worst case via assumed timeframes. Would it end up higher than the current ranking? Don't think so.

I also doubt it would have any good results, but it would still be good to have a calc in her profile (none of her stats have a single one outside of her railgun and lightning)

 

[Zensum]

Quick Question:
How did we reconcile these two quotes?
Aleister can't defeat the Zombie/Hijacking Spell weakened Magic Gods without the A.A.A/Aiwass and Aleister's Spiritual Tripping BBB far exceeds the Magic God's durability. I have my own idea, but was curious about your opinions.

“Blasting Rod. In other words, that power will be multiplied tenfold from my opponent’s point of view.”
She finally exceeded the limits of the existing universe.
This had originally been a secret technique meant to take on every last Magic God at once. Even if the one taking the damage had a limit to their imagination, her enemy’s mind would be mercilessly blown away by enough energy to create the universe ten times over.

Toaru Majutsu no Index: New Testament - Volume 19

With Niang-Niang, it was hard to tell whether she was joking or not.
...And she was apparently losing on purpose.
Not even Aleister Crowley thought she could drive off a Magic God without the support of a true A.A.A. and without help from Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass. It would be hard to pull off with just the Blasting Rod that strengthened the power of her magic to ten times what the target thought it was. That theoretically might give her a chance at a cross-counter, but only having the one option in a real battle was like playing rock-paper-scissors while restricted to only scissors. She could not change that even when working alongside Black Cat Witch Mina Mathers who was an original grimoire given a different form. Lilith would be the one exception since she lacked original sin, but they were here to avoid using that baby’s soul.

Toaru Majutsu no Index: New Testament - Volume 22

 

[DontTalkDT]

Blasting Rod depends on what the opponent thinks how strong it is. So under the right circumstances it can one-shot a MG but under the wrong ones it can't. That's it for the most part.

Given, why Aleister didn't at least try to pull big bang on everyone in later volumes is anyone's guess.

The quote second indicates that it's a matter of opportunity, I guess. I.e. battle of two characters that can easily kill each other and hence have to avoid getting hit to begin with.

 

[Zensum]

Yea that makes sense.
I was thinking along the lines that a Spiritual Tripping foothold on a Magic God's mind isn't necessarily surefire and it is plausible, but still a little questionable if he could mentally cut down a Magic God with just Blasting Rod/Tripping alone based on NT18 quotes (Although this instance is discussing a Full Power MG)

 

[XDragnoir]

It seems all the fillers from Railgun will be canon now due to the new Railgun LN, does these fillers have any useful feats?

 

[DontTalkDT]

It seems all the fillers from Railgun will be canon now due to the new Railgun LN, does these fillers have any useful feats?

Have yet to read the novel. What in it makes all fillers cannon?
Only thing I can spontanously think of is that maybe AIM Burst would get some extra abilities.

 

[XDragnoir]

Have yet to read the novel. What in it makes all fillers cannon?

From JS's twitter:

Reading the Railgun LN and Saten's chapter has her mention Haruue, Banri, Janie, and Febrie all in the same paragraph.

Doubt their addition contradicts anything in the timeline, so it seems enough.

 

[DontTalkDT]

From JS's twitter:



Doubt their addition contradicts anything in the timeline, so it seems enough.

Not sure how much we should accept based on the name drop.

There are certain contradictions between railgun anime and manga. E.g. July 19th. In the manga Mikoto tries to get information on Level Upper from some thugs. Touma interferes and that's how the bridge fight scene at the beginning of Index ultimately happens.
In the railgun anime she instead fights the Flux Coat girl and Touma never appears.

 

[XDragnoir]

Meh, is that the only one contradiction? Cause that seems really minor, and wouldn't affect all of them regardless.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, not sure if I would say that the scene that literally started Index not happening is minor. Especially compared to Saten mentioning a few names without making any further reference to the actual arcs.

I think there's more, but I would have to search through things. Don't know it from memory. ToAru wiki mentions crossovers between railgun and index were left out in the anime and there might be problems with how many days events in the anime take. Not sure about the details, though.

 

[Alsotime]

From what I’ve seen, chronologically, Kongou shouldn’t be at tokiwadai during the Silent Party arc

 

[ÆONS]

Recently began reading the light novels of this series. Am on Vol. 3 RN.

 

[Axscell]

Don't know if I'm missing something, but shouldn't Shirai Kuroko (and by extension, Musujime Awaki) have some kind of resistance to precognition and some limited resistance to fate manipulation because of this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Don't know if I'm missing something, but shouldn't Shirai Kuroko (and by extension, Musujime Awaki) have some kind of resistance to precognition and some limited resistance to fate manipulation because of this?

The explanation makes it relatively clear that it's a weakness of the precog, not a resistance of the teleporters.
He predicts the future based on 3D calcs so 11D teleport is outside of his predictive model. Someone who can just directly see the future without calculations wouldn't be bothered by this.

 

[Axscell]

The explanation makes it relatively clear that it's a weakness of the precog, not a resistance of the teleporters.
He predicts the future based on 3D calcs so 11D teleport is outside of his predictive model. Someone who can just directly see the future without calculations wouldn't be bothered by this.

Isn't it the case by default that precognition works only in a 3D (maybe 4D) framework? I mean some verses don't even have higher dimensions past the standard 4, so wouldn't she be able to resist the precognition in those cases?

Also, isn't the whole calculation thing something that is resolved through verse equalization? I mean pretty much every esper ability we know of works through calculations, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they're still using those abilities.

I'm not sure about it being a weakness of the precognition tbh. In the last panel, they literally state that it's her interfering with the conclusions, and somehow avoiding an otherwise predetermined "fate".

 

[DontTalkDT]

Isn't it the case by default that precognition works only in a 3D (maybe 4D) framework? I mean some verses don't even have higher dimensions past the standard 4, so wouldn't she be able to resist the precognition in those cases?

Sure, but teleporters disappear from 3 dimensions and reappear in 3 dimensions. So a regular precognitive can still see basically everything relevant.

And, I mean, not being spotted while in 11D would be outranging the ability then, not resistance.

Also, isn't the whole calculation thing something that is resolved through verse equalization? I mean pretty much every esper ability we know of works through calculations, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they're still using those abilities.

Don't think so. It's just that precog works differently. It's like how resisting mind control by not having a physical mind (i.e. being a ghost without a brain) wouldn't really be verse equalized to resist methods of MC that target a non-physical mind instead.

I'm not sure about it being a weakness of the precognition tbh. In the last panel, they literally state that it's her interfering with the conclusions, and somehow avoiding an otherwise predetermined "fate".

He literally says how he doesn't know if fate or anything like that exists, so fate statements are not reliable. The most precise explanation we are given is that it just is outside his calculations.

 

[XDragnoir]

He literally says how he doesn't know if fate or anything like that exists, so fate statements are not reliable. The most precise explanation we are given is that it just is outside his calculations.

I agree with other points but that's a kinda limited view, we know from the MGs that Fate IS a thing in Toaru.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with other points but that's a kinda limited view, we know from the MGs that Fate IS a thing in Toaru.

Yes, but this character doesn't know. We have criteria for reliable statements and statements from characters from which we know that they don't factually know something definitely don't qualify.
So while, yes, fate exist, the boy doesn't know that and hence his assertion of teleportation overcoming fate is not reliable.

 

[RaiserAIM]

Quick question, does Aiwass have an Immortality type 8? because he reliant on the AIM field.