Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Acertainbcplayer]

That quote just literally does not address the exact same question.

"All whole number dimensions" ≠ "Every whole number has a dimension of its own"

For example, if I eat "all numbered candies in my pockets" would you say I've eaten one for each number or only the entirety of the ones I had to begin with? Because you're reading "slice through all whole number dimensions [of the universe]" and giving the first answer.

You're simply reading what you want out of the quotes and not what they are actually saying.

You know that I'm not taking only that as a low outer feat? Like remember my previous post? Yes, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because you said that Kamachi has never brought up anything of "that scale" that I'm talking about. Curtana is just a possibility for something of that scale, not a definite feat. This is to prove you that Kamachi has brought up something that make a low Outer feat reasonable, not just out of nowhere.

"All whole number dimensions" literally mean what it says, now if I can prove Toaru have infinite uncountable dimensions which is all whole numbers (not all natural numbers), then everything will absolutely make sense, am I wrong?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Phases is a realm beyond the human world. It is explicitly stated here

But Phases are not God's creation I'm afraid, they are made by humans. But your scan (it's from Index right? Like I don't really remember) also provide an interesting thing, first is that it confirms that at least 2 realms from the 4 worlds are real (and Touma in GT10 straight up confirms that). Also we don't know yet if the spiritual world is on the same layer as Phases or not, so let's put this at that.

 

[MrOMG]

But Phases are not God's creation I'm afraid, they are made by humans. But your scan (it's from Index right? Like I don't really remember) also provide an interesting thing, first is that it confirms that at least 2 realms from the 4 worlds are real (and Touma in GT10 straight up confirms that). Also we don't know yet if the spiritual world is on the same layer as Phases or not, so let's put this at that.

Well purely technically people did not create Phases either. Simply humanity colored different realms and forms of energy their colors (here we can also add that people create whole worlds / temples when they use magic, and introduce them into the human world because of which there is a distortion of causality), thus the gods and angels changed their colors, adjusting to the needs of humanity. Therefore true form of archangel Gabriel is different from the view imposed by humanity (or at least the summoner of the dependence of what function was called to the same Mathers Gabriel took a different form).

Scan from Agnesse SS. Which also talks about a another world where people go after they die.

 

[Churronzon]

tracks. spit.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Well purely technically people did not create Phases either. Simply humanity colored different realms and forms of energy their colors (here we can also add that people create whole worlds / temples when they use magic, and introduce them into the human world because of which there is a distortion of causality), thus the gods and angels changed their colors, adjusting to the needs of humanity. Therefore true form of archangel Gabriel is different from the view imposed by humanity (or at least the summoner of the dependence of what function was called to the same Mathers Gabriel took a different form).

Scan from Agnesse SS. Which also talks about a another world where people go after they die.

Well, quite a headache huh? But originally, Phases do not exists if human don't exists right? Cause they're literally impure veil that stack upon the Pure world. So originally gods couldn't have created Phases, but only ends at the Pure World. Wait then why destroying all Phases will rid of all Magic and the possibility of other Phases appearing? Well I'm missing something here.

Well all of this doesn't matter much tbh, Phases are clearly above the human realm, the only thing I'm wondering is if the creature in Phases are actually above the Physical World in this case or not, I know 99% that they are, but a direct scan would be super cool, which in this case will likely be in GT11. All I'm saying here is that if we can define where the Phases are (the Phases that can affect an at least 11D structure itself) on the 4 worlds, we can upscale the whole verse from there easily, since there is no deny that the 4 worlds and all the trees do exist at this point. Would be cool if the Phases just sit on the spiritual world itself tbh, another undefined place would still put us nowhere tbh, like people will start saying "but what if the spiritual world is below the Phases? Still 11D", that'd be frustrating.

 

[MrOMG]

Well, quite a headache huh? But originally, Phases do not exists if human don't exists right? Cause they're literally impure veil that stack upon the Pure world. So originally gods couldn't have created Phases, but only ends at the Pure World. Wait then why destroying all Phases will rid of all Magic and the possibility of other Phases appearing? Well I'm missing something here.

Well all of this doesn't matter much tbh, Phases are clearly above the human realm, the only thing I'm wondering is if the creature in Phases are actually above the Physical World in this case or not, I know 99% that they are, but a direct scan would be super cool, which in this case will likely be in GT11. All I'm saying here is that if we can define where the Phases are (the Phases that can affect an at least 11D structure itself) on the 4 worlds, we can upscale the whole verse from there easily, since there is no deny that the 4 worlds and all the trees do exist at this point. Would be cool if the Phases just sit on the spiritual world itself tbh, another undefined place would still put us nowhere tbh, like people will start saying "but what if the spiritual world is below the Phases? Still 11D", that'd be frustrating.

Most likely angels and gods existed before mankind, their own worlds. And the Phases are a modified form of energy that has taken on a completely different energy.

Aleister's ceremony (btw, Fiamma's ceremony was also comparable to Aleister's and Coronzon's) was to destroy the very basis of the Phases. Coronzon talked about destroying all Sephirah, meaning that Aleister also wanted to destroy all Sephirah except Assiah Gashmi. So theoretically Aleister wanted to kill all angels and demons so that no new Phases would emerge from them, since Phases are literally distorted worlds of angels and demons.

It was explicitly stated that even weakened Phase beings could destroy the entire human world with their mere presence. Well and also that Sephirah=Phase, since according to Coronzon's quotes it's all one thing (see that destruction of all Sephirah=destruction of all Phases). And also the quote from the Guidebook about the Tree of Sephiroth (you can even use the quote from NT17 about the infinite recursion of the Four Worlds if you want).

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。

And the fact that raising the rank of soul implies giving up the physical anchor

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Most likely angels and gods existed before mankind, their own worlds. And the Phases are a modified form of energy that has taken on a completely different energy.

Aleister's ceremony (btw, Fiamma's ceremony was also comparable to Aleister's and Coronzon's) was to destroy the very basis of the Phases. Coronzon talked about destroying all Sephirah, meaning that Aleister also wanted to destroy all Sephirah except Assiah Gashmi. So theoretically Aleister wanted to kill all angels and demons so that no new Phases would emerge from them, since Phases are literally distorted worlds of angels and demons.

It was explicitly stated that even weakened Phase beings could destroy the entire human world with their mere presence. Well and also that Sephirah=Phase, since according to Coronzon's quotes it's all one thing (see that destruction of all Sephirah=destruction of all Phases). And also the quote from the Guidebook about the Tree of Sephiroth (you can even use the quote from NT17 about the infinite recursion of the Four Worlds if you want).

And the fact that raising the rank of soul implies giving up the physical anchor

Yep, headache again, I guess I'll need to look into this again. Also Sephirah = Phases? I don't really remember much about this, would be really helpful if you can give me the english scans

Also the raw scan you gave me translated to this, is anything in the translation wrong or right?

"The Tree of Sephiroth" represents the mysteries and inner workings of Kabbalah, also known as the "Tree of Life." This figure, composed of 10 spheres called "Sephiroth," three pillars, and 22 paths, is said to symbolize the wisdom of God itself, which is not depicted on the diagram. The Tree of Sephiroth is merely a depiction of the human world. Therefore, beings such as gods and angels existing outside of the Sephiroth are entirely different entities from humans, unreachable even for saints. This concept bears similarity to the "SYSTEM (one who reaches the will of the heavens not as a god but as a mortal)" pursued by Academy City.

If this is true, doesn't that automatically make Angels and such beings automatically outside of the Sephiroth itself? Which Magic Gods can't even reach? Who can destroy all Phases? Which... contain all mythologies, including angels.... Idk, maybe the "angels" in here and the "angels" in Phases are entirely different beings?

And also, Angels are supposed to be in the Sephiroth, after all the tree is for separating and ranking souls between humans, angels, gods and the like.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

The human world in my understanding is only Assiah Gashmi, where the Angels and the like would be on the spiritual world of Assiah, or higher, in which case will still place them within the Sephiroth. And it will make sense for any of these powerful beings to destroy the Physical world if they fully manifest into it.

I'm having trouble to understand this, so would be helpful if you could get me the scans where it might imply that Phase=Sephirah, I need to look into it again.

 

[MrOMG]

Coronzon clenched her teeth with her physical body gone and her essence exposed.

(But even in this incomplete state, I can blow away about half the universe. It all works out in the end as long as that half includes this planet!! For now, I eliminate the obvious enemy. I just have to think of another way to individually destroy the Sephirah that survive this!!)

"While all those fools are focused on the visible chaos, I will take my time preparing for the end. I am the Great Demon lurking in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. But ascending the tree is not the only way to use it." She pointed her thumb at the center of her chest. "I obtained this physical body and descended the tree. The humans drowning at the bottom level only ever think of ascending it, but the connections go both ways. I started higher up and I can freely come and go, so this temporary level does not matter to me. Having a physical body is not a bad thing since it provides practical benefits in this world. And it allows me to reach the physical and scientific layer at the very bottom where all other phases are folded up."

"The bottom?"

"Yes. Imagine the universe at the point when the geocentric model said the other planets revolved around the earth. That is different from current mainstream astrology, but this is about some simple mental exercise. …But make sure this hypothetical does not confuse you. Now, with that model, the forces storing up mystical and supernatural power pour down on the earth from outside of the planet, but the earth in the center is a perfectly ordinary hunk of dirt. That is the earth's surface where we are standing now. If you removed that, the world would lose its center and it would fall apart, correct?"

Coronzon raised her slender index finger and slowly spun it around.

When she did, a few of the large plates around them began to rotate. They appeared to be representing the view of the world before it was proven that the planets revolved around the sun.

"By passing all that power through this foundational layer, that 'bottom' layer can be broken and removed. From there, all other phases will be destroyed along with this one. Without the core, the other forces cannot maintain their revolutions."

She clenched her fist and took a step from the center.

With their directions from the "core" gone, the large plates scattered blindly and bumped into each other.

A single action caused it all to fall apart.

"Aleister apparently wanted to save humanity by destroying every other phase and leaving just this one behind, but I am the opposite. By removing the 'bottom' layer at the center, the phases for all mythologies and religions will be destroyed. That is the Ceremony of Mo Athair. Nothing at all will remain afterwards."

Btw, we also have this quote

"This is bad, Maya!! They're already reaching toward Kamisato-kun's fate!! This will never work without World Rejecter as the gate. They're just letting their emotions get the better of them and they might as well be attempting heart surgery on him with a rusty scalpel! We can't let them do this!!!!!!"

"!?"

But their impatience did not matter.

The cart driving out ahead contained Luca, a complex tangle of Voodoo and piracy, as well as Fran, who had shed her shell as a UFO girl and returned as an unlucky star expert. They had both entered a unique mental state using a special focusing method much like those used by stage actors to get into character.

Their lips were moving. They sent a vibration into the modified hexagram they had carved into the planet.

"The peace of the six points is obtained through the four stages created by combining the great triangle of fire with the great triangle of water. But to achieve the result first and foremost, we seek the secrets of the simplified six points drawn from straight lines. We desire to summon the sun, but cast aside Apollo and retrieve Horus. Know that the world's true image is found in the lost Library of Alexandria!!"

Something changed.

The foundation of the gray steel and concrete city was pulled out.

"Know that Horus is not a mere descendent of dead gods, but the foundation of the forces which shall cleanse the world of the accumulated stains of the cross. Correspondence, correspondence, correspondence. Shake the star which holds the opposing peaks of Da'at and Yesod."

It was like the air had solidified with human killer intent. The extreme mental state much like "getting into character" ruled the dark container yard.

It was all remade into a tranquil sacred ground.

"Distort."

One of the two voices sometimes passed the other, sometimes was passed by the other, and sometimes coincided perfectly with the other.

It was like two different equilateral triangles lining up and moving apart to create a different shape and provide different meaning from moment to moment. The combination of the limited resources called in endless possibility.

"The separate image of the Four Worlds from which power is drawn becomes a different Four Worlds like the moon's reflection in a lake."

Kamijou began to wonder if he should be here.

He had not washed his body, his face, or even his hands. He wondered if he should be standing in this sacrosanct place while so filthy.

"The sun of Horus which shall cleanse the world shall be known by the divine name of Kamisato Kakeru!!"

All the while, wedges were driven into the world.

A supposedly lost name was once more carved powerfully into it.

"Legba Atibon is a frightening being who can surpass even time as the gate to manage all ceremonies. But just as the Qliphoth becomes a powerful compass that points to the truth of the world when used with truly accurate discernment, the curse of the second Aeon can be used as a powerful prism to divide the forces. This shall distort the line to the planet which descends toward the six-pointed star and thus shall substitute the symbols."

There was no obvious light or sound.

But that was only because Kamijou could not see it. Just like the boy on the ground could not perceive the magic circle drawn across the city with gunpowder.

"Bind and strengthen the planetary symbol with the star of power carved into the earth."

Something was changing.

No, it was being intentionally changed by human hands.

Even so, the girls' power must not have been enough because they revealed the existence of a powerful trick up their sleeve.

"The symbol's name is A.A.A."

Finally, even an amateur like Kamijou could detect the change.

One of the metal containers forming a great pyramid began to glow despite its component materials and how thick it was. It was like the north star that guided sailors.

"Just like the endless reflection of opposing mirrors, they overlap like the rings of a powerful tree and provide the power to gaze into the abyss. As the identical symbols approach, have them resonate, just as the slightest breeze can occasionally break a stone bridge and send it plunging into the sea."

What did it look like from above?

It may have been like being trapped in a harmful hallucination after reaching the end of an endless task, such as peering to the very back of the image in opposing mirrors or continually opening a Russian nesting doll until an electron microscope was needed

Or perhaps it was like peering into the depths beyond the deepest depths.

And after they broke through that thick wall, would they find that other boy they needed to drag back up?

"Edward Alexander, aka Crowley, says a great demon never before seen and not mentioned in any holy text can be summoned through a combination of the existing methods. So he said to learn that method and to break through the common view of the world with something that can be found anywhere!!"

A name was spoken.

It was the name of someone who had shaken the world to the point that it was thought he would destroy it.

"Tonight, we shall destroy one of the impossibilities facing the world! Summon the divine name of Kamisato Kakeru with physical form and fix him to Olam Asiyah, the surface of the Four Worlds!!!!!!"

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Btw, we also have this quote

I don't quite understand why this could prove Phases = Sephirah, I know that she intended to destroy the whole Sephiroth and leave nothing behind and if her intention is to only destroy all Phases she could just do that. But here's the thing, she want to destroy everything that could cause distortion, including even the Sephiroth that contain herself, the fastest and easiest way, also the best way to achieve basically what she want is to destroy the foundation of the world leading to the destruction of everything within the Sephiroth, including the Sephiroth itself, so the destruction of all Phases could just be a byproduct of the destruction, not that she must get rid of the Sephiroth to rid of all Phases, Magic Gods do not need that.

So could you tell me why exactly the Sephirah would also be Phases in this case?

Well, I think we should just better wait for GT11 and see if hell is on the spiritual world or not.

 

[MrOMG]

I don't quite understand why this could prove Phases = Sephirah, I know that she intended to destroy the whole Sephiroth and leave nothing behind and if her intention is to only destroy all Phases she could just do that. But here's the thing, she want to destroy everything that could cause distortion, including even the Sephiroth that contain herself, the fastest and easiest way, also the best way to achieve basically what she want is to destroy the foundation of the world leading to the destruction of everything within the Sephiroth, including the Sephiroth itself, so the destruction of all Phases could just be a byproduct of the destruction.

So could you tell me why exactly the Sephirah would also be Phases in this case?

Well, I think we should just better wait for GT11 and see if hell is on the spiritual world or not.

Well we can even use a different logic. That the Phases and Sephirah fulfill the same function, well almost. Archangel Gabriel lives in the Phase of Heaven and in the world of archangels Yetzirah. That is, the Phase of Heaven is in the same space as Archangel Gabriel, wnd as we know, angels live in Sephirah.

 

[XDragnoir]

thus the gods and angels changed their colors, adjusting to the needs of humanity. Therefore true form of archangel Gabriel is different from the view imposed by humanity

Why do I have a feeling you're saying this based on Marian's summoning ritual?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Well we can even use a different logic. That the Phases and Sephirah fulfill the same function, well almost. Archangel Gabriel lives in the Phase of Heaven and in the world of archangels Yetzirah. That is, the Phase of Heaven is in the same space as Archangel Gabriel, wnd as we know, angels live in Sephirah.

Well, all beings on the Sephiroth all live on a Sephirah so that doesn't change much. Gabriel lives in Yetzirah, below Beri'ah, I know this, but is this confirmed in Index or not? Idk, but if Kamachi really follow the lore of the Hermetic Kabbalah, then Phases would be everywhere on the Sephiroth and they don't rank the same, and basically they will become a kind of thing that contains world that contain beings on different layers on the Sephiroth rather than just "Oh on the spiritual world are Phases and the 3 other worlds are above that", and somehow heaven Phase will varies on every Sephirah cause Archangels basically stays on different Sephirah, in which case is quite weird to me, even if we don't say Phases = Sephirah, it still weird to me how a single heaven Phase now somehow divided into many Phases on many layers.

Then we'll have to use the logic that Phases basically stays at the top of the Sephiroth and beings in it is what varies into different Sephirah, but if so then how does Magic Gods, beings who didn't even cross the Abyss and is not even on the top Sephirah yet, could just destroy all Phases/ created Phases as they like?

And if we separate Phases and Sephiroth then the destruction of Sephiroth lead to the destruction of all Phases also wouldn't make sense.

If we say that Phases just exists as a place, while beings in it can exists at different Sephirah? Because the Sephiroth is just for ranking souls? And that's why a Phase's position doesn't rely on the Sephiroth and the Four Worlds? This doesn't sounds right either, there's still the whole thing about the Magic Gods.

In any case, I'd like you to provide your logic on how to solve this, I'm gonna go get something to eat first.

 

[XDragnoir]

You know that I'm not taking only that as a low outer feat? Like remember my previous post? Yes, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because you said that Kamachi has never brought up anything of "that scale" that I'm talking about. Curtana is just a possibility for something of that scale, not a definite feat. This is to prove you that Kamachi has brought up something that make a low Outer feat reasonable, not just out of nowhere.

...

This isn't of "that scale" or any scale at all, it is an absolutely indirect statement that doesn't conclude anything other than "Curtana can slice dimensions", it doesn't even try at any point to say how many dimensions there are, which is what matters for a debate regarding the tiering of the verse.

"All whole number dimensions" literally mean what it says, now if I can prove Toaru have infinite uncountable dimensions which is all whole numbers (not all natural numbers), then everything will absolutely make sense, am I wrong?

Yes? That's the point, there's is no evidence numbers after 11 have a dimension of their own, that's the entire reason for that statement to be useless and for this discussion to happen in the first place.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

...

This isn't of "that scale" or any scale at all, it is an absolutely indirect statement that doesn't conclude anything other than "Curtana can slice dimensions", it doesn't even try at any point to say how many dimensions there are, which is what matters for a debate regarding the tiering of the verse.


Yes? That's the point, there's is no evidence numbers after 11 have a dimension of their own, that's the entire reason for that statement to be useless and for this discussion to happen in the first place.

Like I say, I don't intend to use it as a feat for Low Outer, I'm using it as to tell you that it's possible for a Low Outer feat, because you told me that Kamachi never implied anything even close to that (or something like that), while Curtana clearly have the statement required for that possibility, right? Of course let me repeat, I do not intend to base on Curtana alone to get Toaru to Low Outer, cause I know that's stupid and nonsense, what I'm saying is, if I can prove Toaru to have infinite dimensions, then Low Outer is Possible, ONLY if I can prove it.

So what I'm trying to say here is to prove a possibility, not a definite answer, you denied that possibility to even exists by saying Kamachi never did give us anything close to that scale, I'm just trying to prove that one sentence of yours to be wrong, nothing else.

 

[XDragnoir]

Gabriel lives in Yetzirah, below Beri'ah, I know this, but is this confirmed in Index or not? Idk, but if Kamachi really follow the lore of the Hermetic Kabbalah

including the Sephiroth itself, so the destruction of all Phases could just be a byproduct of the destruction

If this is true, doesn't that automatically make Angels and such beings automatically outside of the Sephiroth itself? Which Magic Gods can't even reach? Who can destroy all Phases? Which... contain all mythologies, including angels.... Idk, maybe the "angels" in here and the "angels" in Phases are entirely different beings?

another undefined place would still put us nowhere tbh, like people will start saying "but what if the spiritual world is below the Phases? Still 11D", that'd be frustrating.

I feel like you're starting to see the problems with Toaru's Cosmology:

Kamachi doesn't explain shit, he simply doesn't and we have no idea what he is even using as a base given the amount of different things he uses as well as original ideas and all these ideas are never properly defined in relationship to one another (even contradicting itself such as the case with the angels, for example).

 

[XDragnoir]

you denied that possibility to even exists by saying Kamachi never did give us anything close to that scale, I'm just trying to prove that one sentence of yours to be wrong, nothing else.

...

I said that because he indeed never gave us anything on that scale or close to it, that's a fact and the quote about whole numbers doesn't disprove it.

You're literally saying "I've no evidence you're wrong, but I if I get evidence in the future this will also be an argument", like, that's just dumb, as I said the "all whole number dimensions" has no fixed scale to it, so trying to use it to say Kamachi did explore such massive scales in the cosmology makes no sense.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I feel like you're starting to see the problems with Toaru's Cosmology:

Kamachi doesn't explain shit, he simply doesn't and we have no idea what he is even using as a base given the amount of different things he uses as well as original ideas and all these ideas are never properly defined in relationship to one another (even contradicting itself such as the case with the angels, for example).

Well, I think that he has given quite enough actually (and maybe it will be even clearer in GT11 as I said), the problem is that we need to work on all that is given to come out with something logical enough to work with.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

...

I said that because he indeed never gave us anything on that scale or close to it, that's a fact and the quote about whole numbers doesn't disprove it.

You're literally saying "I've no evidence you're wrong, but I if I get evidence in the future this will also be an argument", like, that's just dumb, as I said the "all whole number dimensions" has no fixed scale to it, so trying to use it to say Kamachi did explore such massive scales in the cosmology makes no sense.

Well, I'm not saying that you're wrong in anything, just that you deny that Curtana have the possibility to be at that level, which I know that it isn't now. The original argument is whether Toaru can have infinite dimensions via Alice and Hilbert Space or not, not about Curtana, I'm bringing Curtana up to basically tell you that Kamachi has given us a possibility for Low Outer, not that it can prove Toaru to be Low Outer as of now. Well, I know that this doesn't prove anything, so I think let's end that conversation. Now I care about the Phases more, since the answer to them is closer than ever.

 

[Axscell]

It's the name of her summons:

“Fool, this is bad sign. Encountering the bait meant to buy us time means we have more enemies to deal with. By which I mean the Gryphon, the Executioner, and the rest of the Alice Series.”

Oh, I see. Didn't realize they had been termed that (They're also referred to as Wonders apparently, so we'll have to decide on that too).

Do they really have any distinct enough abilities to necessitate a separate P&A section for them? Also, weren't most of their abilities purely physical (no hax)?

As for resistances, I think the easiest place to start would be to give her a resistance to each of the other Transcendents' abilities, seeing as the LN keeps reiterating that their abilities don't work on her/they can't defeat her. This, along with any other resistance that she's demonstrated in the LN.

 

[Axscell]

And also, can we split Alice's abilities in her profile in tabs for her own abilities, Alice Series and Live Adventures in Wonderland? I think that would help to properly explain what each thing does.

Maybe they can be listed under her equipments? And under her abilities, we can specify which specific abilities require which equipment. Similar to what I did with Time Travel for this profile.

 

[StrangerALover]

Yep, headache again, I guess I'll need to look into this again. Also Sephirah = Phases? I don't really remember much about this, would be really helpful if you can give me the english scans

Also the raw scan you gave me translated to this, is anything in the translation wrong or right?

"The Tree of Sephiroth" represents the mysteries and inner workings of Kabbalah, also known as the "Tree of Life." This figure, composed of 10 spheres called "Sephiroth," three pillars, and 22 paths, is said to symbolize the wisdom of God itself, which is not depicted on the diagram. The Tree of Sephiroth is merely a depiction of the human world. Therefore, beings such as gods and angels existing outside of the Sephiroth are entirely different entities from humans, unreachable even for saints. This concept bears similarity to the "SYSTEM (one who reaches the will of the heavens not as a god but as a mortal)" pursued by Academy City.

If this is true, doesn't that automatically make Angels and such beings automatically outside of the Sephiroth itself? Which Magic Gods can't even reach? Who can destroy all Phases? Which... contain all mythologies, including angels.... Idk, maybe the "angels" in here and the "angels" in Phases are entirely different beings?

And also, Angels are supposed to be in the Sephiroth, after all the tree is for separating and ranking souls between humans, angels, gods and the like.

Sephirah /=/ phases, as follows from the mouth of Choronzon

 

[StrangerALover]

In any case use other wikis to scale toaru guys if you want to get a higher level)

 

[Alsotime]

All whole number dimensions" literally mean what it says, now if I can prove Toaru have infinite uncountable dimensions which is all whole numbers (not all natural numbers), then everything will absolutely make sense, am I wrong?

Let me use an example for you so you can why this doesn’t work.

Billy can throw all the apples in his place, Billy only had five apples on his, therefore Billy can only throw five apples.

Notice how because the word all is used in reference to the plate we don’t assume Billy literally has every apple, pomegranate and pineapple in the world?

Curtana can cut through all the whole number dimensions in her world
Curtana’s world only has 11 whole number dimensions
Curtana can only cut through 11 dimensions

The world in To Aru is the same as the plate in the Billy analogy, we only know it to have 11 whole number dimensions, therefore only 11 dimensions exist in it until further notice, that means Curtana being able to slice through all of them means it can slice through 11, it doesn’t prove the existence of more.

And if later Kamachi decides to change the number of dimensions that’s fine, but right now as of literally 20 years that’s not the case so it would be extremely odd to make a content revision based on a possibility

Yeah. And more honestly... What's the point of it? The Tier 1s themselves are essentially just a bragging rights trophy that won't net any interesting topics 'sides saying (insert person here) is THIS powerful.

You’d be surprised by the amount of people who don’t care how coherent, consistent, or true to the story power scaling should be as long as they get to call their favorite character or verse outer or boundless by literally taking quotes and scenes from a 59 book series out of context, the idea of something means much more to them then what is

 

[Axscell]

What speed do we place Trismegistus at (specifically his sword slashes)? I'm trying to scale Alice's speed, and he's the closest we've got to a speed scaling for her.

There is also CRC who was able to react a light-speed gun IIRC, and Alice was able to blitz him (scaling is a bit weaker here).

This is what I currently have in the CRT after taking and changing up what's currently on her profile.

At least Speed of Light Attack Speed & Reactions (Reacted to, and Blitzed Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be light), Infinite movement speed when 'Walking', Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed and Reactions for the flamingo cricket bat (Blocked Frillsand's lightning), Massively FTL+ throwing speed (Once got upset and threw her ceramic pot to a planet dozens of lightyears away).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Sephirah /=/ phases, as follows from the mouth of Choronzon

That's what I thought

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Doing good work, Accel. Also, I think what you've listed there works for Alice's speed justification.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

As for this...

As for resistances, I think the easiest place to start would be to give her a resistance to each of the other Transcendents' abilities, seeing as the LN keeps reiterating that their abilities don't work on her/they can't defeat her. This, along with any other resistance that she's demonstrated in the LN.

(Note: Hadn't read GT10 yet. So can't say anything about the Transcendents there)

IIRC, wasn't it mentioned offhandedly bologna succubus occasionally uses her pleasure-pain switch magic on Alice to reel her in or smth along those lines in GT7 or GT8?

There is also that moment in GT6 in where Aradia outright overcame BS's magic by pure willpower for a bit in order to continue in her attempt to kill Touma.

So wouldn't that just imply Alice could just bruteforce her way out of bologna succubus's magic if she just put her mind to it or smth?

... Not gonna talk about the other Transcendents since they don't really have abilities that can give resistances seeing as one is just a ripoff Sukuna, another is resurrection woman, another is just repackaged Salome and Aradia... who just throws fists, wind magic and occasionally energy beams.

 

[Axscell]

As for this...

(Note: Hadn't read GT10 yet. So can't say anything about the Transcendents there)

IIRC, wasn't it mentioned offhandedly bologna succubus occasionally uses her pleasure-pain switch magic on Alice to reel her in or smth along those lines in GT7 or GT8?

There is also that moment in GT6 in where Aradia outright overcame BS's magic by pure willpower for a bit in order to continue in her attempt to kill Touma.

So wouldn't that just imply Alice could just bruteforce her way out of bologna succubus's magic if she just put her mind to it or smth?

... Not gonna talk about the other Transcendents since they don't really have abilities that can give resistances seeing as one is just a ripoff Sukuna, another is resurrection woman, another is just repackaged Salome and Aradia... who just throws fists, wind magic and occasionally energy beams.

Gonna have to revisit and reread those parts.

That should indicate resistance, right? Aside from that we also have passages like this one, among others, that reiterate that the Transcendents are essentially helpless against Alice:

Accept me, H.T. Trismegistus!! You regular Transcendents are based on Alice, so you can never harm her. But if you swap out foundations, you can bypass Alice’s precedence over you. Like comparing heights of the Tower of Babel and the World Tree Yggdrasil!!”

“I am in your debt.”

“I’m only doing this to make that fool smile. And you want Alice to smile in the same way, right? Then hurry!!”

An invisible change came over the air. A weight vanished.

New possibility had presented itself. If Aradia, the Bologna Succubus, and the other Transcendents also swapped out their connection, they could possibly overturn Alice’s absoluteness.

... Not gonna talk about the other Transcendents since they don't really have abilities that can give resistances seeing as one is just a ripoff Sukuna, another is resurrection woman, another is just repackaged Salome and Aradia... who just throws fists, wind magic and occasionally energy beams.

Who's the Sukuna ripoff and Salome repackage?

 

[XDragnoir]

Oh, I see. Didn't realize they had been termed that (They're also referred to as Wonders apparently, so we'll have to decide on that too).

In GT10? I didn't see that being used anywhere (and ctrl+f didn't find anything), so I'd rather go with Alice Series anyway.

Do they really have any distinct enough abilities to necessitate a separate P&A section for them? Also, weren't most of their abilities purely physical (no hax)?

They have things like large size, instinctive actions and whatever else we've seen they do (that and I think they will all be 5B as well, so it will be good to have it slightly apart from Alice to properly what each of them can do.

As for resistances, I think the easiest place to start would be to give her a resistance to each of the other Transcendents' abilities, seeing as the LN keeps reiterating that their abilities don't work on her/they can't defeat her. This, along with any other resistance that she's demonstrated in the LN.

Well, I think Cold Mistress was the only ability stated to work against Alice, right? Anyway, as I said before, her statements from GT5 (or 7, idk) can be used to give her resistance to all kinds of internal damage in the verse.

 

[Hizack123]

So I just done reading the GT10

So is Alice scale to Magic god(at least Othinus)?

Statements seem to said something like that.

 

[Churronzon]

Do they really have any distinct enough abilities to necessitate a separate P&A section for them? Also, weren't most of them just jobbers?

Executioner possibly has a similar fate cutting thing as Vidhatri, but I don't think it needs a separate P&A. Maybe your scan of Alice having all of the transcendents' abilities can support this.

The ominous silhouette seemed puzzled by its failure to lop off its target’s head in a
single attack.

Its skull-like head tilted disconcertingly far while it spun the shaft around in its hand.

It switched to the sword blade and sliced sharply at the air. Whenever it spun the shaft
like a baton and aimed the point at its target, the artificial ghost’s head was
mysteriously knocked aside, causing it to bend directly sideways.

Kamijou honestly couldn’t even see the axe, the sword, or even the blur of the blades
in motion.

Most likely, the conditions it used to cut had nothing to do with that motion.

Maybe it was the arrangement of the fingers gripping the weapon, maybe it
automatically sliced at the weak points the target reflexively tried to protect, and
maybe the baton-like weapon was a spool for the threads of life and destiny and it
would cut those threads, killing you instantly, if you failed to defeat it before it spun a
certain number of times.

Whether it's through a curse or whatnot, it negates durability of physical beings without needing to land a hit on the opponent.

Flamingo bat gets upgraded to at least sub-rel reaction speed for blocking CRC's magic.

For Alice's AP/range justifications, there's:

1. Can destroy the universe.
2. World would be destroyed
3. Comparison to Othinus
4. This quote.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, I think that he has given quite enough actually

I think all the information we've got on the topic of Dimensions and how the structure of Dimensions+Phases+4 Worlds is set has simply not been enough, otherwise we wouldn't be stuck at H1C up to now.

Executioner possibly has a similar fate cutting thing as Vidhatri, but I don't think it needs a separate P&A.

I am saying it should be split because it helps to make it look clean/organized, as it would be a mess to have so much shit in the same place when we have tabs exactly for this purpose, to not end up with cluttered P&As.

Also, are we going to tier Alice's child version and adult version differently? They seem to be different on what exactly they can do, although I am not sure if their scaling would be different.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I think all the information we've got on the topic of Dimensions and how the structure of Dimensions+Phases+4 Worlds is set has simply not been enough, otherwise we wouldn't be stuck at H1C up to now.

Yep, I know, it's surely not enough or a definite answer, but surely enough to narrow down to number of possibilities that you could count with both hands, we will probably be closer to a clear answer when GT11 comes out, probably, unless Kamachi decides not to lore dump through maybe Kingsford, or just kinda introduce a whole new place without any context, that would be a worst case scenario.

That's why I'm hoping it will just be a Phase, so we can finally identify the location of the Phases.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yep, I know, it's surely not enough or a definite answer, but surely enough to narrow down to number of possibilities that you could count with both hands, we will probably be closer to a clear answer when GT11 comes out, probably, unless Kamachi decides not to lore dump through maybe Kingsford, or just kinda introduce a whole new place without any context, that would be a worst case scenario.

That's why I'm hoping it will just be a Phase, so we can finally identify the location of the Phases.

I wish that we will get more lore but Kingsford only has Touma to talk to, I doubt he will make the actually useful questions.

Also, given how Kamachi completely avoided doing such a thing back in NT22 when the cosmology was being the focus, idk if he actually wants to talk about such things to begin with, we may end up with nothing new.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I wish that we will get more lore but Kingsford only has Touma to talk to, I doubt he will make the actually useful questions.

Also, given how Kamachi completely avoided doing such a thing back in NT22 when the cosmology was being the focus, idk if he actually wants to talk about such things to begin with, we may end up with nothing new.

Welp, kinda true tbh. Maybe I'll just stick to making possible theories first, we won't know if there's a solution in GT11 or not if we don't even have a concrete theory.

 

[Aseka]

I wish that we will get more lore but Kingsford only has Touma to talk to, I doubt he will make the actually useful questions.

It's more likely Kingsford telling Touma without asked.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

It's more likely Kingsford telling Touma without asked.

Yea, she herself explained to Touma about that white place that it is "outside of all" herself without Touma asking anything about it, if Touma actually went through hell or some weird place, I can see Kingsford explaining stuff to Touma.

 

[Axscell]

I am saying it should be split because it helps to make it look clean/organized, as it would be a mess to have so much shit in the same place when we have tabs exactly for this purpose, to not end up with cluttered P&As.

Okay. That should be easy enough.

Also, are we going to tier Alice's child version and adult version differently? They seem to be different on what exactly they can do, although I am not sure if their scaling would be different.

Idk about that tbh. Seemed like the only difference between the two was her access to miracles. Is that enough to require a separate key?

 

[XDragnoir]

Idk about that tbh. Seemed like the only difference between the two was her access to miracles. Is that enough to require a separate key?

It doesn't need to be a different key, given it is basically a transformation/true form she doesn't need any specific condition to access.

Could be something like "at least 9B in Child Form, 5B in Adult form" (just as an example)

From what I can remember, Child Alice didn't have any 5B feats and as you pointed out she gets her Miracles when in Adult Form (at least I don't remember any explicit or even implicit mention to her Miracles in her Child Form).

All in all, I am suggesting things here that I am thinking would help at making a good profile so that the CRT can go smoothly without new changes every 2 posts, only thing I think should be more extensively discussed there is her resistance to internal damage which I am suggesting to be expanded.

Also, side note, I think Alice should have Immortality types 3 (Mid) and 4 and also a limited type 2, as she survived without her head after it killed her once.