Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Churronzon]

I am not against it, but which quotes do even support this line of thought?

What are your thoughts on the wiki's description of the Four Worlds and its relation to the story?

She wasn't holding back against them either tho nor was she avoiding the option of killing them, it not being a goal doesn't mean she wouldn't do it if it was that easy.

I never said it would be easy. Just because she could defeat Niang-Niang doesn't mean it would be done quickly. Coronzon when restricted to the surface world also suffers recoil after casting Enochian magic, leaving her vulnerable.

The Aethyr Avatars, the eighteen secret calls, and Magick: Flaming_Sword. All of
Coronzon’s magic was drawn from Horus, but each time she increased its power, she was
bound by the surface world. In other words, the movement of her physical body was
restricted. That meant she was distracted by controlling the recoil immediately after using
one of her major attacks, so she became as defenseless as a normal human magician.

Claims of Coronzon trying to kill Niang-Niang are also invalidated by the fact that she didn't even try to use Flaming Sword on her. Unless you believe 2x nerfed MGs are still High 1-C and could thus tank it.

Also, how exactly does it line up perfectly when her strongest spell is Othinus level?

Maybe it applies the anti-regen that Enochian magic wouldn't, values it for its attack speed, or does something else when designed to protect the top three Sephirah and cuts the bonds apart. However, this is a great point you've made.

Neither underlined parts of the quote imply the Pure Elements are some higher existence type of fire, it just says that it can't be achieved and produced a different result from the spells/elements that exist naturally in the world, nothing about "can't be likened" or "qualitatively higher".

It didn't use more biggatons. It bypassed it due to its nature.

And what does that mean in practice? You're not really explaining what you want to get here.

Supplementary argument. She uses laws based on a higher plane of existence that even Niang-Niang considers impressive, although she's very snarky about it.

Edit: In practice, it places her outside the toybox of the surface world and prevents her from forming a pair of mutual destruction with those within except for Lilith, who is born without original sin and likened to an Adam Kadmon who hasn't lost their divinity.

“Then what about Coronzon herself as she enjoys this game of Mutual Destruction Old
Maid? Do you think there is a symbol of destruction that forms a pair with her?”

[...]

Coronzon could take everything in this world and set up a cross-counter of their weak
points to ensure mutual destruction. But what about Coronzon herself as she peered into
the toy box of the world and stuck her hands inside to set things up as she liked? Even if
they overturned the toy box, could they really find something with equal power to her that
would form a pair with her?

“...”

Kamijou Touma looked down at his right arm.

That arm was now incomplete and it lacked the hand that symbolized Imagine Breaker.

“No.” Index shook her head. “That isn’t what I mean, Touma. Even if you still had your
right hand’s power, that is still something inside the toy box of the world. That does not
match Coronzon who is viewing it all from a step removed.”

“This is sounding rather grim.” First Princess Riméa sighed. “Then what about that
insolent word that we keep hearing lately: god? There were the Divine Mixtures, two
Magic Gods have been frequently spotted in Scotland, and I believe that one on the boy’s
shoulder counts as well.”

“That won’t work.” Index looked at the spiky-haired boy who reflexively tried to protect
his small understander with his nonexistent right hand and got his ear pulled on instead.

“The word demon contains a few different meanings: The dark side of the human mind,
a fallen angel, and a pagan god. I do not think the Magic Gods we have seen would form
a clean pair with Great Demon Coronzon. The Divine Mixtures rely on Egyptian and Greek
mythology, so they are out for the same reason. They would have some power, but not
enough for a direct conflict.”

“Then what are we supposed to do?” carefully asked Third Princess Villian while glancing
over at her mother’s equipment. “We can use Curtana to draw out the power of an angel
and guide everyone using that while inside British territory. But as disrespectful as it
might sound, that doesn’t get any more powerful than an archangel. It isn’t an absolute
good capable of matching an absolute evil.”

That was when they heard a clattering noise.

They looked back to see someone leaning against the entrance and peering into the room.

“Aleister?”

The silver girl was covered in wounds.

Did that magician know something? Had she put together a plan to defeat Coronzon? That
was what Kamijou thought, but he was apparently wrong.
“It is no use, human. Even if she had some way of reducing her original sin, Aleister is still
a human living in this world. That does not escape the toy box that Index mentioned. It
does not give us what we need.”

Then.

Then what?

“I see. So that’s it,” said Aleister. “It has to be someone from outside the world. And not
just that, but someone who can wield miracles because they are void of original sin. In
that case, I only know of one candidate. Is that what this is about, Aiwass!?”

“Aiwass? That being I saw in the Windowless Building? Are they the key to victory here?”

“No.” The silver girl shook her head. “Given the situation, a direct clash between Holy
Guardian Angel Aiwass and Great Demon Coronzon would likely end in Coronzon’s
victory. Although the avatar issue would play a role there. So that is not the point here.
Aiwass merely prepared the answer.”

“Then who else is there?”

Aleister did not answer Kamijou’s question.

She had already found the answer, but something seemed to be holding her back.

Her face was twisted by anguish.

Plus, she was a truly innocent being who had only just been born from her mother’s womb.
Since she had also passed through a Holy Guardian Angel and been permeated by various
powers, the power hidden within her was unfathomable.

The topic of spiritual rank was relevant here.

Her rank was different from that of an adult who was covered in sin and had lost their
divinity.

Without even referencing the Adam Kadmon, it was possible to say she held endless
possibilities within her.

It is stated right there to not have IB's perfect negation, so what do you mean by "as effective" then?

Exactly. It doesn't need IB's negation to accomplish a similar effect of superiority.

Why is it a higher plane of existence to begin with? All we know is that beings from there have higher ranked souls and the elements from there don't exist naturally in the surface.

It's my understanding that it's closer in contraction to God's light who created the Sephiroth. It's also repeatedly just called a higher plane.

Like, you're just throwing "qualitatively" around without actually explaining what it means. We already know the universe in Toaru has 11 dimensions, are you saying Olam Beriah would exist above it or something like that?

Yes. What other than the physical/surface world would the 11 dimensions encompass? It doesn't apply to the higher spiritual realms that Coronzon is from as she had to literally descend from it.

Yes, Pure Fire scales higher than Niang's sparks, i don't that was ever in doubt to begin with.

The reasoning for why RZIONR scales higher is being ignored.

For the Pure Wind, Aleister could deflect it with his own strength, it makes no sense for him to be able to do it if the power was some kind of higher existence that no one could even approach in strength.

While the pure fire didn't really get deflected or anything like that, it only destroyed Niang's weapons/sparks from what i saw, so like, they aren't any impressive feat wise, not to the point you're claiming them to be.

So you're saying Aleister>Niang-Niang since he diverted the pure wind even though it destroyed his weapon?

So i will have to ask, what exactly are you proposing here? That Coronzon is Tier 1 with Enochian Magic or what?

Adding the word "enhanced" to her elemental manipulation.

Did you disagree with Doggo when they said Coronzon's true form is tier 1?

 

[Aseka]

What are your thoughts on the wiki's description of the Four Worlds and its relation to the story?

I didn't really understand about Kabbalah things, but from my understanding, the Four Worlds have it's hierarchy based on their divinity. And what are your thoughts on that?

 

[TalkingTrees]

Does anybody has the scan for Gabriel's enhanced senses, I can't seem to find it.

 

[XDragnoir]

For what reason the 4B durability? For his nature as angel of sephirah?

Accel's 4B attack was targeted towards Coronzon's body and didn't damage it.

 

[XDragnoir]

What are your thoughts on the wiki's description of the Four Worlds and its relation to the story?

Does it matter? Whatever the wiki says can't be used to scale the characters.

I never said it would be easy. Just because she could defeat Niang-Niang doesn't mean it would be done quickly. Coronzon when restricted to the surface world also suffers recoil after casting Enochian magic, leaving her vulnerable.

You're literally claiming she has 4 H1C spells, it would be simplicity itself to kill everyone there with any of these if they were actually that strong, and yet none of the actually did anything even remotely impressive or were even regarded as being that strong.

The fact she gets vulnerable is just further proof of my point, if you have a sure kill spell that leaves you in a vulnerable state would you use it without aiming for the kill? That makes no sense.

Claims of Coronzon trying to kill Niang-Niang are also invalidated by the fact that she didn't even try to use Flaming Sword on her. Unless you believe 2x nerfed MGs are still High 1-C and could thus tank it.

You're literally claiming that she was using spells even stronger than the Flaming Sword.

And you know that the FS has a ridiculously big chanting spell, right? After their fight the narration makes it clear that escaping with minor damage from a MG isn't a simple feat even for Coronzon, imagine standing there for idk how many seconds chanting that thing.

Maybe it applies the anti-regen that Enochian magic wouldn't, values it for its attack speed, or does something else when designed to protect the top three Sephirah and cuts the bonds apart. However, this is a great point you've made.

The most valued aspect of the Flaming Sword is it AP, not any of the other things you listed.

It didn't use more biggatons. It bypassed it due to its nature.

It's nature is literally just being a higher quality of fire, in the sense that it's stronger, nothing about higher plane of existence or whatever.

Supplementary argument. She uses laws based on a higher plane of existence that even Niang-Niang considers impressive, although she's very snarky about it.

So does the esper teleporters and they don't have tier 1 AP, this means literally nothing other than the source being a higher plane at best, literally nothing it ever does or is stated to be able to places it as being a higher transcendental level of fire.

Edit: In practice, it places her outside the toybox of the surface world and prevents her from forming a pair of mutual destruction with those within except for Lilith, who is born without original sin and likened to an Adam Kadmon who hasn't lost their divinity.

What? I recognize the terms obviously but like, what does all of this mean? That's kinda far from being what i wanted when i asked for what this meant in practice.

Exactly. It doesn't need IB's negation to accomplish a similar effect of superiority.

It doesn't accomplish anything even close to what IB can do.

It's my understanding that it's closer in contraction to God's light who created the Sephiroth. It's also repeatedly just called a higher plane.

It's a plane with higher ranked souls, nothing about it is a "higher qualitative existence" so far.

Yes. What other than the physical/surface world would the 11 dimensions encompass? It doesn't apply to the higher spiritual realms that Coronzon is from as she had to literally descend from it.

You literally can't know that because Kamachi never explained the relationship between the 4 worlds and the 11 dimensions. We have no idea which one is superior to the other.

The reasoning for why RZIONR scales higher is being ignored.

It isn't, it being a purer fire that can't be achieved in our world doesn't mean anything.

So you're saying Aleister>Niang-Niang since he diverted the pure wind even though it destroyed his weapon?

No, i never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

I said that Aleister's strength is still close enough to it to divert its path, Niang would be able to do the same had Coronzon used Pure Wind against her.

Adding the word "enhanced" to her elemental manipulation.

...

I suppose that's fine.

Did you disagree with Doggo when they said Coronzon's true form is tier 1?

No, Coronzon is T1 scaling from the True MGs.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

From my 5B scaling research, what i found is:

Aiwass body and wings are regarded as ridiculously strong + crushed IB casually.

Weakened Coronzon's casual attacks were disappointing to Aiwass tho Coronzon still won in the end in their offscreen fight.

Niang Niang and Coronzon clashed + Coronzon was damaged after their fight. (If we ever go with the 4B durability for Coronzon, due to this everyone would scale).

Son of God Aleister destroy some of Coronzon's attacks with her own physical strength + had a quick fight with a casual Niang.

SoG Aleister and SoG Mathers were even and had a complete fist fight.

Thanks for this, Noir... Also, will have to postpone my CRT for a bit. Fam mem is sick, so have to take care of em.

 

[Churronzon]

Does it matter? Whatever the wiki says can't be used to scale the characters.

I wanted to get your opinion. This isn’t a CRT so I was only showing opinions/theories of my own that I can’t concretely prove. It’s really lame to hear/consider only one type of scaling for years on end. I’m not convinced of my own arguments and I change opinions over a few months. I didn‘t even know Four Worlds existed in Toaru until I did my Will of the Whole Misaka Network CRT.

You're literally claiming she has 4 H1C spells, it would be simplicity itself to kill everyone there with any of these if they were actually that strong, and yet none of the actually did anything even remotely impressive or were even regarded as being that strong.

I was only posting what I believed the narration stated. I have no interest in tiering the pure elements. To go even further, I also don’t care about tiering Coronzon’s Ceremony. It could be placed at planet level 3-A and I’d have no issue with it. I’d accept any tiering and evaluation.

You're literally claiming that she was using spells even stronger than the Flaming Sword.

That would be very ass-backwards if that’s what I implied without realizing, yeah.

You literally can't know that because Kamachi never explained the relationship between the 4 worlds and the 11 dimensions. We have no idea which one is superior to the other.

I’ve never considered the possibility of teleporters traveling through any worlds other than Olam Asiyah, but I’ll keep an open mind.

It doesn't accomplish anything even close to what IB can do.

Featwise it doesn’t, no.

No, Coronzon is T1 scaling from the True MGs.

Shouldn’t that be on her profile then or were you referring to just her flaming sword scaling to it? If you instead mean to say she’s tier 1 only in the Abyss, what scans do we have to come to that conclusion? I’m not disagreeing with anything on this topic; just trying to follow people‘s train of thought.

Is Coronzon’s flaming sword still High 1-C when soulripped?

I appreciate the responses

 

[Zensum]

Does anybody has the scan for Gabriel's enhanced senses, I can't seem to find it.

“If Hino is a magician, then can we not track him via his mana residue?” “My first answer: I did not find any traces of Hino using magic last night. I conjecture that he is likely using some trick to throw off pursuit.”

(Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 4, pg 79)

“Gabriel is a messenger angel. She must be good at manipulating information. She must be obscuring our sixth senses of premonition and intuition. It seems like we can only rely on our five normal senses for this fight...”

(Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 21, pg 118)

Fiamma and Gabriel’s senses were linked and Gabriel’s abilities of perception were quite different from those of a human. Even if the parchments had been in the target’s pocket, the archangel could obtain the magical information recorded on them.

(Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 21, pg 161)

 

[XDragnoir]

I wanted to get your opinion. This isn’t a CRT so I was only showing opinions/theories of my own that I can’t concretely prove. It’s really lame to hear/consider only one type of scaling for years on end. I’m not convinced of my own arguments and I change opinions over a few months. I didn‘t even know Four Worlds existed in Toaru until I did my Will of the Whole Misaka Network CRT.

Fair, i think the wiki did a good job describing it, going by my own knowledge (which is very, very basic) of the Sephirot and it's structure.

I was only posting what I believed the narration stated. I have no interest in tiering the pure elements. To go even further, I also don’t care about tiering Coronzon’s Ceremony. It could be placed at planet level 3-A and I’d have no issue with it. I’d accept any tiering and evaluation.

I mean, that's fine but strange af.

Also, the Ceremony is without a doubt H1C.

I’ve never considered the possibility of teleporters traveling through any worlds other than Olam Asiyah, but I’ll keep an open mind.

...

That's the problem, you're trying to use both the Dimensions and the Olams at the same time, but Kamachi didn't explain how that would work, we have no idea if Espers can travel outside of Olam Asiyah or if the other Olams are qualitatively higher than the 11 dimensions.

Shouldn’t that be on her profile then or were you referring to just her flaming sword scaling to it? If you instead mean to say she’s tier 1 only in the Abyss, what scans do we have to come to that conclusion? I’m not disagreeing with anything on this topic; just trying to follow people‘s train of thought.

It isn't on her profile because we mostly don't know anything about her true form, it could be Tier 1 due to her control over the ranks applying to the MGs since we know they didn't cross the Abyss but even that is kinda... a weak argument? Like, Accel already crossed the Abyss and he clearly isn't a being that surpassed even the MGs.

Is Coronzon’s flaming sword still High 1-C when soulripped?

Hmm, yes? I don't see why it wouldn't be.

I appreciate the responses

No problem

 

[TalkingTrees]

I have a question, can Carissa still use the ''All dimensions severing spell'' while using the shard of curtana's second?

 

[Churronzon]

Yeah, and her profile states so as well. It just doesn't create the dimensional debris anymore, while still being able to kill Aiwass.

 

[Churronzon]

Huh, you made me find out something new. The quote states that Curtana Second would create dimensional debris.

A moment later, Curtana Second was swung down with the force of a lightning strike.

The apparent distance between them did not matter.

Not when that queen used her full power.

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four
regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael’s
power while on UK land. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a
swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would
be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between
worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase...for example, Holy Guardian Angel
Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

I also found out that Elizard likely chose not to cut anything but the third dimension, which is why the debris didn't appear.

“I will give you one warning.”

[...]

But did he realize that they had been showing him a kindness here?

And not just because of what would have happened had that slash been made ten
centimeters lower.

The cut had not gone beyond the third dimension.

If it had sliced through all dimension simultaneously, it would have formed a massive
piece of ruined materials that fell like a suspended ceiling to crush his entire body.

“But just the one. Disarm yourself and surrender immediately. Setting foot in the queen’s
castle without permission is a crime in and of itself.”

Might have to look into this more.

So either Curtana Second doesn't cut through all dimensions(only the third), or it can and would create dimensional debris.

 

[XDragnoir]

I have a question, can Carissa still use the ''All dimensions severing spell'' while using the shard of curtana's second?

I think we don't know about the shards, iirc the severing spell was never used with a Curtana Shard.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, thanks to the To Aru reddit. I got to see the new Mental Out chapter, and... Misaki doing the NT11!Touma pose and doing cool stuff with Mental Out (that is possibly combat-applicable depending on translations) was awesome to see. Mikoto might actually get a decent fight scene in this year, which is awesome as well! Here's hoping for the best!

 

[TalkingTrees]

I think we don't know about the shards, iirc the severing spell was never used with a Curtana Shard.

I currently leaning toward the idea that Carissa can't use the spell while using the shard, since she doesn't use or even consider using it against Gabriel during their fight.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Shouldn't "Could match Kanzaki in combat while she used Yuisen" as justification for Angel Fall Gabriel be changed, seeing as all of Kanzaki's Yuisen attacks just straight-up shattered its wings in that form?

Edit:
Btw. WWIII Gabriel is stated to be superior a weapon to Curtana

“ Now that I think about it, for the conflict to erupt now just signifies how serious the situation has become. As expected, the enemy has prepared a trump card on the same level as, no, superior to Curtana… ”

which should be somewhat clear given how Carissa and the Maiden of Versailles clashed with Gabriel.

And Curtana Shards are said to still wield Archangel-level power, so they seemingly are not that inferior to the original sword (again, makes sense given that they clashed with an angel)

“ What are you doing you barbarian?! Didn ’ t you say Curtana had the power of an archangel just like the enemy? ”
“ That ’s just on paper! It ’s not a problem of ‘power’ but a problem of ‘ technique ’ and ‘ knowledge ’ . If you haven ’ t noticed, I’m not an archangel! I can’t compete with a real archangel! What about your Durendal? ”
“ Just relying on the power of the ‘ artifact ’ is not enough! Remember, our goal is the impossible dream of taking down an archangel! ”

(Both quotes from OT 21)
Those could be added as additional justification to WWIII Gabriel and Carissa's second key.

 

[Alsotime]

This question was brought up by someone in a revision thread but it was a little off topic and got dropped from the discussion, so I’m gonna just mention it here, why does Kamisato have BFR via time manipulation on his profile?

 

[DontTalkDT]

This question was brought up by someone in a revision thread but it was a little off topic and got dropped from the discussion, so I’m gonna just mention it here, why does Kamisato have BFR via time manipulation on his profile?

Because that's how World Rejector works. The world it banishes people to is in the same location as the regular universe, but just shifted a little in time.
When World Rejector "erases" something it gets shifted slightly in time so it ends up in that other world instead of the regular world.
So, since it BFRs people by changing their location in time instead of in space, it's BFR via time manip.

 

[Zensum]

WWIII Misha is also much more durable than her wings.
i.e., Shards of Curtana and Durendal could cleave the wings as easily as Yuisen, but couldn't even scratch the body. Probably a benefit of the external manifestation. Angel Fall Misha never really got to display durability feats while inside Sasha IIRC so it's hard to tell.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I got some news! ... In my upcoming CRT, I'mma get rid of the 8-A ratings and going to do some downgrading for the lower tier so-to-speak, that is all... Yea, no joke. Fixings some wrongs and whatnot, if you wanna know why.

 

[XDragnoir]

I got some news! ... In my upcoming CRT, I'mma get rid of the 8-A ratings and going to do some downgrading for the lower tier so-to-speak, that is all... Yea, no joke. Fixings some wrongs and whatnot, if you wanna know why.

LMAO, that was unexpected.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Indeed, indeed. And once Mental Out CP 15 gets translated, I can do a calc for the ice that Misaki created and possibly give her an AP rating via Mental Out going out of control. At this point, not including my downgrade, all of my main proposals are done, I just need to quite a few more scans for 'em, and then focus entirely on the downgrade and what I need to gather for that, plus, make the calc for Misaki's feat and get it approved and then added to my CRT.

 

[XDragnoir]

Indeed, indeed. And once Mental Out CP 15 gets translated, I can do a calc for the ice that Misaki created and possibly give her an AP rating via Mental Out going out of control

I wouldn't do that, she seems to be breaking the control the other esper has over the ice and using it herself, it shouldn't scale to her Mental Out at all.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Gotta wait for translations to tell the truth of the matter! ... That, and there being ice in the first place is weird in itself considering last chapter only had Misaki remark that she felt a chill when Cube Girl was using the Space Hax Cube, and a comment in reddit remarked that Misaki intentionally made her ability go berserk by taking damage from icicle spear - so overall, this is plain weird and waiting for complete translations is going to be a long bother.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Gotta wait for translations to tell the truth of the matter! ... That, and there being ice in the first place is weird in itself considering last chapter only had Misaki remark that she felt a chill when Cube Girl was using the Space Hax Cube, and a comment in reddit remarked that Misaki intentionally made her ability go berserk by taking damage from icicle spear - so overall, this is plain weird and waiting for complete translations is going to be a long bother.

Adding onto this topic, in Mental Out Chapter 10 Page 11 (?), the entire page itself is used to described Misaki's Mental Out - saying that it is complex, it depends on her physical and mental functions, that she needs to use remotes to control it; same ol' same ol stuff, ye, but furthermore there is a line of text that says every line prior could be thought of as chains that control a monstrous power that is known as her Mental Out and there is a picture that depicts chains around Misaki's hand - and then in this chapter Misaki does the NT11 Touma pose and the ice stuff happens, and, and...

50/50 % chance that this is going to be a environmental destruction feat like how Weather Reporter from Jojo has 7-B rating via enviromental destruction via weather manipulation or actual just an AP feat - am betting on the former, tbh, but it'll be a decently fun thing to calc, imo.

... Oh, btw, I just realized that Kamijou no Touma did actually try to invoke ntr in NTR22 when he tried to kiss Index before he got interrupted by Touma. Heh.

 

[Doggo]

I got some news! ... In my upcoming CRT, I'mma get rid of the 8-A ratings and going to do some downgrading for the lower tier so-to-speak, that is all... Yea, no joke. Fixings some wrongs and whatnot, if you wanna know why.

YEAH NO MORE 8A TOUMA!

 

[Doggo]

... Oh, btw, I just realized that Kamijou no Touma did actually try to invoke ntr in NTR22 when he tried to kiss Index before he got interrupted by Touma. Heh.

except it was knt who got ****, he was just getting what's his

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

YEAH NO MORE 8A TOUMA!

Yep, yep.

except it was knt who got ****, he was just getting what's his

Honestly, I am just happy that scene with KnT and Index exists since it satisfies the KamiDex Shipper within me.

 

[XDragnoir]

Gotta wait for translations to tell the truth of the matter! ... That, and there being ice in the first place is weird in itself considering last chapter only had Misaki remark that she felt a chill when Cube Girl was using the Space Hax Cube, and a comment in reddit remarked that Misaki intentionally made her ability go berserk by taking damage from icicle spear - so overall, this is plain weird and waiting for complete translations is going to be a long bother.

Yeah it's strange that there was ice but we already know Misaki isn't the one creating said ice, the ice comes from the nanometal particles that S-Grid creates.

Adding onto this topic, in Mental Out Chapter 10 Page 11 (?), the entire page itself is used to described Misaki's Mental Out - saying that it is complex, it depends on her physical and mental functions, that she needs to use remotes to control it; same ol' same ol stuff, ye, but furthermore there is a line of text that says every line prior could be thought of as chains that control a monstrous power that is known as her Mental Out and there is a picture that depicts chains around Misaki's hand - and then in this chapter Misaki does the NT11 Touma pose and the ice stuff happens, and, and...

What happens in chapter 10 is more or less the same, Misaki took control over one of the water balls and exploded it.

And like, we already know what Misaki can do months in the future, her powers were completely useless against... literally everyone she even tried to fight in late NT and GT.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah it's strange that there was ice but we already know Misaki isn't the one creating said ice, the ice comes from the nanometal particles that S-Grid creates.

What happens in chapter 10 is more or less the same, Misaki took control over one of the water balls and exploded it.

And like, we already know what Misaki can do months in the future, her powers were completely useless against... literally everyone she even tried to fight in late NT and GT.

True, true, but again, translations shall reveal the truth.

And Misaki herself was completely confused on how that happened, as she wasn't even trying to do that, and just figured it was because of some aspect of her powers that was activated subconsciously cuz she was in danger/distress.

Counterpoint: that line of people are the Golden Dawn (or grimoires acting as them) , Aleister's Hazards (some of which she could mind control easily), Coronzon (technically, if you count their one encounter as a 'fight' ), Kamijou no Touma (who was gaslighting her via her desire for Touma to remember her, and keeping her under extreme mental distress via her guilt), and Anna (who wasn't even trying, and didn't regard her as a threat). And all of this, mind you, was when she was paired up with Mikoto who was using her AAA, and kept under its safety.... Oh, and the Elementals aren't something she can fight and Ayu had a lot of prep and in the end Ayu essentially forced her into a physical brawl that knocked Misaki out for a few seconds which was enough for Ayu to drag her into the Five-Over Mental Out pod.

 

[Churronzon]

wth is going on in Mental Out

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Something weird is cooking, that is for sure.

 

[XDragnoir]

And Misaki herself was completely confused on how that happened, as she wasn't even trying to do that, and just figured it was because of some aspect of her powers that was activated subconsciously cuz she was in danger/distress.

Counterpoint: that line of people are the Golden Dawn (or grimoires acting as them) , Aleister's Hazards (some of which she could mind control easily), Coronzon (technically, if you count their one encounter as a 'fight' ), Kamijou no Touma (who was gaslighting her via her desire for Touma to remember her, and keeping her under extreme mental distress via her guilt), and Anna (who wasn't even trying, and didn't regard her as a threat). And all of this, mind you, was when she was paired up with Mikoto who was using her AAA, and kept under its safety.... Oh, and the Elementals aren't something she can fight and Ayu had a lot of prep and in the end Ayu essentially forced her into a physical brawl that knocked Misaki out for a few seconds which was enough for Ayu to drag her into the Five-Over Mental Out pod.

Yeah, that's the point, she didn't get any new powers after this, she just has the power to take control of other esper powers now, otherwise we would have seen it in the novels.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah, that's the point, she didn't get any new powers after this, she just has the power to take control of other esper powers now, otherwise we would have seen it in the novels.

...

Touma's (other) dragons in Daihasei Festival Arc that only appeared in the anime (with only the dragon from the Aureolus arc only showing up in the manga), that was retroactively added to the canon.

Mikoto's ability to create a giant monster from iron sand in the Railgun manga, that is accepted as canon as she can do.

Teitoku's ability to transmute people into sand from the Dark Matter manga, that has also been accepted into canon, which... honestly isn't outlandish since it is dark matter, but still.

Everything we have for Gunha is from the manga works, with only barebones showings of Gunha's abilities in the novels.

All things that happened in the side-materials slash spin-offs that was never once hinted or suggested to be possible (well, sides, Teitoku's bull with Dark Matter) in the novels, but are just a thing now. Not really arguing about the ice thing anymore, but the idea that if the manga showcased a power, we would've seen in the novels by now - granted, that is probably the fault of the threat level of the antags of the latter half of NT and Misaki and Mikoto relatively minor role in GT barring GT2 than anything else.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Honestly, in regards to the freezing, there is also the issue of Misaki and co suddenly appearing fine and dandy despite a few pages ago depict themselves as nearly frozen. Either there is a missing page, context that needs to be translated, or some other funky stuff.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Wait, wait, something just came to me! ... Um... Where did Aleister's High 1-C rating come from? Destroying the hidden phase in NT10? Fighting the True Magic Gods in NT10 and only charred a third of his body? The former sounds like an environmental destruction feat to me, and the latter isn't as impressive since NT12 implies they weren't giving it their all in actually killing him.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Because the Blasting Rod was said to be a way of cutting down MGs.

“When you assume the length will be extended 10 times, the Blasting Rod uses that as the basis for the 10 times amplification. Thus, the blade is extended 100 times.”

At that length, the blade could slice across this entire space. He could not pull it out. To avoid being held in place by the imaginary blade skewering him, Kamijou grabbed it with his right hand. It shattered and vanished into the ether and he regained his freedom in exchange for losing the plug keeping the wound closed.

If Aleister had intended to eliminate all magic, he must have planned to fight the Magic Gods on his own. Had he had any realistic chance of that without an exception like Kamisato Kakeru’s World Rejecter? Kamijou had his doubts, but this seemed to be the trick.

If he could not do it as a human, he would draw out the destructive power from the Magic Gods themselves.

Drawing out the power of a god and defeating a god while remaining human was the way a summoner thought.

Instead of becoming a god, he would control them and rule them.

Nothing could have been more arrogant, but that just showed how much hatred he had in his heart.

However, that methodology actually showed some promise of working against full-power Othinus. How to mentally cut down a Magic God who had absolute confidence in their power was still a major question, but this still had far better odds than using any kind of human power against them.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think you're again missing my point, but let me go step by step.

...

Touma's (other) dragons in Daihasei Festival Arc that only appeared in the anime (with only the dragon from the Aureolus arc only showing up in the manga), that was retroactively added to the canon.

Touma has shown 3-4 completely different things inside of him by this point, the dragons weren't retroactively made canon they are just another example of what he has inside of him and as he doesn't have control over any of these things their existence doesn't change anything.

Also, what do you mean by "only appeared in the anime"? All of the dragons appeared in the manga in the final version of that chapter, only the early version had a single dragon.

Mikoto's ability to create a giant monster from iron sand in the Railgun manga, that is accepted as canon as she can do.

This one is a good example, but there aren't all that many cases where the Iron Sand Kaiju would help Mikoto in the LNs

Teitoku's ability to transmute people into sand from the Dark Matter manga, that has also been accepted into canon, which... honestly isn't outlandish since it is dark matter, but still.

This one doesn't change anything too because Kakine was ridiculously limited on what he could do against Accel and in NT he didn't care at all how to fight given Accel couldn't kill him at all.

Everything we have for Gunha is from the manga works, with only barebones showings of Gunha's abilities in the novels.

You saying this is proof you missed the point, i am not saying "it is the manga so it's not valid", i am saying that we know what she will be able to do in the future, so obviously whatever she is doing rn can't be some new power (and it really isn't, again, it's pretty clear all she is doing is taking control of other espers' powers).

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh, oof. I think I misunderstood entirely. Ye, I got your point, Noir.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Because the Blasting Rod was said to be a way of cutting down MGs.

Wait a moment... Is that actually enough to get a High 1-C rating? Like, it seems Touma thought it would work against full-power Othinus, which considering his history with her means that there is actual merit behind it, but it doesn't actual confirm that it would work against True Magic Gods (Full-Power) to the point that even Touma thought that there had to be more.

Which was right on the mark.

One of the dining hall’s doors burst open.

Magic God Niang-Niang was sent flying into the adjacent kitchen and got stuck inside a crushed stainless-steel sink. She looked like someone with their butt sticking through a swim ring. The girl in a soaked mini-China dress heard splashing water as she looked straight up.

“Ahh, ahh. Now that’s impressive. Even after losing, I still can’t figure out why I lost.”

Aleister responded while spitting some blood onto the floor.

“You got too strong too fast. You skipped too many steps before you were ready. Love is Thelema. As long as it is ruled by the power of your Will. And magic is the technique that gives form to your feelings for those you care for. You must have lived for millennia. If you had made just one family in that time, you might have acquired a different form of strength.”

“Eh? Come to think of it, how are babies made?”

With Niang-Niang, it was hard to tell whether she was joking or not.

…And she was apparently losing on purpose.

Not even Aleister Crowley thought she could drive off a Magic God without the support of a true A.A.A. and without help from Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass. It would be hard to pull off with just the Blasting Rod that strengthened the power of her magic to ten times what the target thought it was. That theoretically might give her a chance at a cross-counter, but only having the one option in a real battle was like playing rock-paper-scissors while restricted to only scissors. She could not change that even when working alongside Black Cat Witch Mina Mathers who was an original grimoire given a different form. Lilith would be the one exception since she lacked original sin, but they were here to avoid using that baby’s soul.

The sink was not the only part of the kitchen that had been destroyed.

To Aru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4: (Untitled) MAGICK Warfare - Part 12

Aleister needed the help of the A.A.A (while piloted by Kihara Noukan) and Aiwass to actually cut down a Magic God, who was actual serious and not messing around, - and even then, didn't that require the set up of having the Magic Gods to nerf themselves and for Aleister to nerf them again? Zombie is an unknown factor here, but judging on how quickly High Priest died, if Aleister was fast enough to nerf Zombie he could've killed her in a quick draw via his magic, Noukan w/AAA, Aiwass fighting, or a mix of all three at the same time.

... Actually, now that I think about it - doesn't this make Aleister's feat of killing two Magic Gods less impressive in the slight that he (likely) could only kill them while they were in a doubly weakened state?