[Toaru] Accelerator manipulates the macro cosmos, but how does that affect us ants down here on Earth?

[Churronzon]

The point of this thread is figuring out if Accelerator's manipulation of celestial bodies applies a comparable physical blow onto the target (in this case Coronzon).​

Accelerator shook a galaxy and thus has Solar System AP with platinum wings.
Here's the feat in question:

Spoiler

“Damn...you!! What are you doing? That isn’t the Sephiroth or the Qliphoth. If...if you
embed something like this in the world, it will change things even more fundamentally
than Angel Fall!!”

“I don’t know what that means, so I’ll get right to the point. Qliphah Puzzle 545 has told
me most everything. You’re such a pain in the ass because you have a physical body of
flesh and blood. So I’ll shift that aside and cut it away.”

“Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this
temporary body!?”

The microcosm of the body and the macrocosm of the planet were linked.

When something happened to one, it affected the other.

That theory was usually applied to use the micro as a way of moving the macro. To put it
extremely simply, refining magic power in the body and moving the arms or legs would
distort the larger physical world and produce flames or ice from the hand.

But this monster was different.

He used the macro as a way of moving the micro.

By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of
the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person’s flesh and blood.

All to force an astral projection initiated by an external third party.

Now, had the #1 realized how similar this was to the holistic esper power some had hoped
to create within the immortal monster sealed for so long inside the Windowless Building
and freed by Lightning God Thor?

“Gah.”

“This will eliminate what made you so special. Being the strongest is boring. It’s like a
poison that dulls your sense of pain. You only get to see who you truly are once it’s been
stripped from you. So I’ll show you, Coronzon. I’ll show you who you are when you’re
stripped bare!!”

-Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 16

After Coronzon was soulripped by Accelerator, Touma's fish eggs attacked Coronzon's soul.

Spoiler

Coronzon clenched her teeth with her physical body gone and her essence exposed.

[...]

A rainbow-colored beam of light erupted out as a merciless surprise attack from behind
Kamijou Touma.

There was nothing he could do.

A sizzling sound followed.

Kamijou Touma’s right arm was forcibly severed at the shoulder and flew through the air.

Even if it functioned as a reference point for the world, it could not be converted into a
destructive power once it was removed from his body. It could not punch Coronzon in the
face anymore.

“!!”

The boy clenched his teeth as if restraining something trying to leave his body.

But...

“I cannot be stopped. I am Great Demon Coronzon, the destructive power that returns the
world to its rightful circulation!!”

If she unleashed another Magick: Flaming_Sword from point-blank range now, it was all
over. Kamijou Touma had nothing to defend himself with, so the rest of his body would
be reduced to mincemeat.

However.

Magic was a technique of distorting the world’s causality for your own purposes. Its sparks
and spray would eventually find their way back to influence the magic user in unexpected
ways. An action taken to achieve a certain goal could end up crushing that very some goal
in some hidden way.

In this case, that was seen when something burst from Kamijou Touma’s right shoulder
with an unpleasant noise.

It was like dark red fish eggs. But that collection of perfectly triangular surfaces seemed
to symbolize the artificial. Those artificial objects were like the polygons in a video game.

They came in all sizes, they were connected together, and they moved like a single giant
arm.

There was no pain.

This was what he had worked so hard to restrain. It was...

“Wha—?”

There was a deafening straining sound. It did not just come from the shoulder where the
arm had been. Kamijou Touma’s entire body gave off a great din that never should have
come from a human. The control had shifted. Instead of the boy controlling his right
hand’s power, the hidden power now raced throughout the boy’s entire body.

What was going through his head as his body moved against his will?

Or was he capable of taking an objective view of the situation?

“No...it’s going to come out... You have...someone to rely on, don’t you? Then go ask for
their help, Coronzon!!!!!!”

What followed was a sticky sound like bursting bubbles.

The objects that resembled giant fish eggs made from triangular surfaces burst within as
something else made an appearance. But this was not just one thing. That swarm was
clearly larger than the boy’s own body. The boy was not controlling the power; he was
hanging from the power. That was the symbolism here.

And.

And.

And.

It happened with a deafening roar.

There was also a blinding flash of light.

The temple was torn apart from within and the entire Queen Britannia was split in two.

And here's the aftermath of Coronzon's physical vessel tanking the initial attack while her soul was being destroyed by Touma's fish eggs.

Spoiler

Everyone may have been satisfied with Great Demon Coronzon’s defeat.

But after separating the soul from the body, they had focused their attacks on just one of
those two parts. That meant the other part remained.

In other words, the body of flesh and blood that Coronzon had used as a temporary vessel.

“...Gh...?”

That demon clung to her fading consciousness and moved her lungs.

No, she tried to move them.

But she could not manage a single breath. Was it the Gnostics who called the body no
more than a cage for the soul? But for Coronzon now, her body was no more than an
execution device. She could not move a finger and she could only watch as she sank into
the depths of the cold ocean.

-Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Afterword

Accelerator's durability currently states, "Solar System level with Platinum Wings (Struck Coronzon with a physical blow)", and even though it's treated as striking Coronzon with a Solar System attack, her durability is listed "at least planet level".
So in essence, I see two scenarios.

Scenario 1: If Accelerator's attack does apply a solar system level physical blow, Coronzon would get upgraded to "at least Solar System" durability since her vessel tanked it w/o damage. Niang-Niang (and the rest of the MGs who are comparable to her), Aleister, Avatarless Aiwass, and even base form "Post-Qliphah Accelerator" would also get upgraded for either fighting or injuring Coronzon. It's a damn Ouroboros scaling chain and would thus come with more issues that need to be resolved.

Scenario 2: If Accelerator's attack doesn't apply a solar system level physical blow, then this aspect is non-combat applicable and we might need to reword the AP and durability in Accelerator's profile.

 

[Aseka]

I agree for the former scenario. It's strange that Coronzon's vessel can withstand that solar system physical blow but didn't get solar system durability in her profile. It's literally stated that Accel forced an astral projection by applying pressure to it's vessel, like squishing something. Yet her vessel managed to withstand it.

Once again, I agree with first scenario.

 

[Iiliminal]

ultimate dilemma

 

[Iiliminal]

i think scenario 1 is best but what are the issues that would need to be solved after this

 

[Churronzon]

i think scenario 1 is best but what are the issues that would need to be solved after this

I guess if we're fine with Accelerator being solar system level at base, then there's no issue lol. It would mean platinum wings mostly grants a buff in terms of range and soulhax.

Edit: Either that or maybe people shouldn't scale to minor fights they have with Coronzon.
For example, Coronzon's essence can fuel a High 1-C barrier and there's the following quote.

Spoiler

"Then what about Coronzon herself as she enjoys this game of Mutual Destruction Old
Maid? Do you think there is a symbol of destruction that forms a pair with her?"

[...]

Coronzon could take everything in this world and set up a cross-counter of their weak
points to ensure mutual destruction. But what about Coronzon herself as she peered into
the toy box of the world and stuck her hands inside to set things up as she liked? Even if
they overturned the toy box, could they really find something with equal power to her that
would form a pair with her?

"..."

Kamijou Touma looked down at his right arm.

That arm was now incomplete and it lacked the hand that symbolized Imagine Breaker.

"No." Index shook her head. "That isn't what I mean, Touma. Even if you still had your
right hand's power, that is still something inside the toy box of the world. That does not
match Coronzon who is viewing it all from a step removed."

"This is sounding rather grim." First Princess Riméa sighed. "Then what about that
insolent word that we keep hearing lately: god? There were the Divine Mixtures, two
Magic Gods have been frequently spotted in Scotland, and I believe that one on the boy's
shoulder counts as well."

"That won't work." Index looked at the spiky-haired boy who reflexively tried to protect
his small understander with his nonexistent right hand and got his ear pulled on instead.

"The word demon contains a few different meanings: The dark side of the human mind,
a fallen angel, and a pagan god. I do not think the Magic Gods we have seen would form
a clean pair with Great Demon Coronzon. The Divine Mixtures rely on Egyptian and Greek
mythology, so they are out for the same reason. They would have some power, but not
enough for a direct conflict."

"Then what are we supposed to do?" carefully asked Third Princess Villian while glancing
over at her mother's equipment. "We can use Curtana to draw out the power of an angel
and guide everyone using that while inside British territory. But as disrespectful as it
might sound, that doesn't get any more powerful than an archangel. It isn't an absolute
good capable of matching an absolute evil."

[...]

"It is no use, human. Even if she had some way of reducing her original sin, Aleister is still
a human living in this world. That does not escape the toy box that Index mentioned. It
does not give us what we need."

Then.

Then what?

"I see. So that's it," said Aleister. "It has to be someone from outside the world. And not
just that, but someone who can wield miracles because they are void of original sin. In
that case, I only know of one candidate. Is that what this is about, Aiwass!?"

"Aiwass? That being I saw in the Windowless Building? Are they the key to victory here?"

"No." The silver girl shook her head. "Given the situation, a direct clash between Holy
Guardian Angel Aiwass and Great Demon Coronzon would likely end in Coronzon's
victory. Although the avatar issue would play a role there. So that is not the point here.
Aiwass merely prepared the answer."

"Then who else is there?"

Aleister did not answer Kamijou’s question.

She had already found the answer, but something seemed to be holding her back.

Her face was twisted by anguish.

[...]

This was the final key.

This was the expendable that could annihilate Coronzon.

"That truly is an immaculate white light."

Queen Elizard frowned and looked down at Curtana Second in her own hands. She was
the queen protected by the United Kingdom's entire system, but she may have felt inferior
to that baby.

"Is that an innocent soul uncorrupted by original sin?"

"There is precedent. For example, it is said the Virgin Mary had her original sin removed
before the Last Judgment."

[...]

"It is only a possibility, but this soul was protected by Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass and
wandered within a different phase for more than a century. This is not a case of the sin
being removed. You could say that this soul belongs to somewhere other than this surface
world. Great Demon Coronzon escaped from the card table, so there is no being who can
form a pair with her. Except for this opposing factor here."

 

[Iiliminal]

i see

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I agree for the former scenario. It's strange that Coronzon's vessel can withstand that solar system physical blow but didn't get solar system durability in her profile. It's literally stated that Accel forced an astral projection by applying pressure to it's vessel, like squishing something. Yet her vessel managed to withstand it.

Once again, I agree with first scenario.

I am agreeing with scenario one cuz of what Aseka stated. So, ye.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Edit: Either that or not everyone should scale to minor fights they have with Coronzon.
For example, Coronzon's essence can fuel a High 1-C barrier.

... But you can't deny the fact that Coronzon getting ganged up by several MGs left her very exhausted, seemingly injured, and was extremely desperate to crawl her way out of the world rejector world. And with Niang-Niang, she was left with several injuries after their fight - sure, Coronzon wasn't trying to kill her (since she was, more or less, focused on protecting Hamazura), that doesn't mean her durability drops down several levels.

... And then, we have Accelerator harming Nepthys repeatedly (and Nepthys bypassing Accel's barrier and hitting him directly, but that is an entirely different topic), Aleister's willpower/magic killing two MGs and being able to "defeat" Niang-Niang (or just hit her enough times to let her past, considering the fact Niang Niang let her win) and Aleister's magic was able to match Coronzon's for a bit. And the less said about Aiwass and Anna, the better.

 

[Churronzon]

... But you can't deny the fact that Coronzon getting ganged up by several MGs left her very exhausted, seemingly injured, and was extremely desperate to crawl her way out of the world rejector world. And with Niang-Niang, she was left with several injuries after their fight - sure, Coronzon wasn't trying to kill her (since she was, more or less, focused on protecting Hamazura), that doesn't mean her durability drops down several levels.

I'm willing to hear multiple scaling chains.
Indeed, she got exhausted in World Rejecterland (which could be a testament to how hard it is it to leave), but she didn't get injured in there.

Yes, she got injured by Niang-Niang, but I have some things to say about this.
1) She considered the injuries less problematic than a period.
2) Magic shouldn't even scale to physicals to begin with, so Niang-Niang should still have High 1-C magic if she does in her first two keys. Hell, I shouldn't even have to point this out since Coronzon herself has a High 1-C move while currently physically being planet level, lmao. Her High 1-C spell doesn't even get weaker after having been soulripped. Imagine Breaker just stops considering it a harmonious and natural phenomenon.

“She is the same as me right now!! She is not an ongoing magical phenomenon! She is a
paranormal being that has already acquired the final result of a physical body! Just like
you can’t restore burned paper by touching the ashes, your Imagine Breaker cannot
defeat her!!”

3) There's arguments to be made that her sparks negate durability since it's compared to the causality manipulating cosmological phase sparks.

When she ran forward, the fanned-out weapons restlessly clanked together, sending
disconcerting sparks everywhere. It was like the electrodes of a stun gun but different.

Anyone who had pursued the system of magic to this point would realize what was
happening when they heard the word “sparks”.

4) The fight was offscreen and Coronzon is described as being as defenseless as a normal human magician after casting high level magic.

The Aethyr Avatars, the eighteen secret calls, and Magick: Flaming_Sword. All of
Coronzon’s magic was drawn from Horus, but each time she increased its power, she was
bound by the surface world. In other words, the movement of her physical body was
restricted. That meant she was distracted by controlling the recoil immediately after using
one of her major attacks, so she became as defenseless as a normal human magician.

5) She took much worse damage later and reappeared just fine even after being weakened by Aleister "cutting away" her Telesma and exploiting the fact that the Queen Britannia amplifies all spiritual items.

According to Aleister, who knew Coronzon better than anyone, demons were made of
something similar to Telesma, so they could be weakened by cutting away that energy to
shrink them down. Do that and they could make Coronzon into something humans could
defeat. ...That opened a path to avoiding this global crisis without using Lilith’s soul.

Spoiler

This was not just the power of rubies.

Countless overlapping symbols were drawn out on the temple’s floor. Aleister had
embedded these stones at intersections in those rails to intentionally create a “clog” that
would distort the flow of power.

Al2O3, natural aluminum oxide.

Coronzon could not deny knowledge of its power when she herself had used it to control

A. O. Francisca.

Crowley and Coronzon’s spells intertwined in a different way than in the battle against
Mathers. This was a battle between two with knowledge of Horus.

“The blood of three doves summons a demon. The target is the angel who wanders the
tenth Aethyr of ZAX and is hidden in the Sephiroth’s Abyss along with Da’at. She is the
transcendent being necessary to cross the Abyss and acquire the knowledge beyond.”

[...]

“My goal is only to cross the Abyss, not to hold an audience with the pure angel herself. I
shall extract just the power I require for my goal. I shall cut away that small portion and
bring it to the surface world. Become no more than a bare minimum tool, Angel of
ZAX...no, weakened Great Demon Coronzon!!”

Coronzon’s attack had not been deflected.

By throwing that red symbol into the temple that weaponized any spiritual item and using
that to downscale Coronzon herself, the total amount of power she could wield had been
forcibly reduced.

Just like Norse and Celtic gods became known as fairies once they were minimized.

Now they could do it.

They could end this without having to use that baby’s soul to produce a miracle.

As a parent.

As a human.

And as the mastermind who had made the world this way.

Aleister Crowley could take responsibility for it all and settle the remaining grudge that
lingered after Mathers’s defeat!!

“This is not thy place, but I forbid thee to depart!! I shall now intentionally enact a failed
exorcism. Great Demon Coronzon, return to thy rightful world while thy power is torn
into the almighty number of eleven!!”

The magician Aleister Crowley really did seem to be coughing up blood as she yelled the
words.

If you thought of a summoning circle like a warp gate from cheap science fiction, then
what would happen if you threw someone into a malfunctioning gate and entered the
coordinates using a staticky signal? The power to forcibly send her back between phases
would slice Coronzon apart like a wire through a hardboiled egg.

“Oh!”

Fearsome sparks exploded out.

And not figuratively. An orange light really did scatter all around her.

“Oooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!???”

It was a lot like pushing a human body through a noodle maker. Coronzon’s silhouette
vanished into the bright light as her entire body was torn apart and forced into a total of
eleven gates.

That Great Demon never should have succumbed to human magic, but she cried out in
agony as she was torn to pieces. It was not that this attack held a dreadful amount of
power. This only worked because she had been reduced to a level where normal magic
could kill her.

And.

And.

And.

Every last trace of her shadow disappeared in the bright light.

The last echo of her death cry trailed off.

That impurity was finally wiped from the face of the earth after clinging to it like a vengeful
spirit for so long.

And then...

“Just kidding☆”

A dull sound followed.

“Gh...?”

An unnatural breath escaped Aleister’s mouth.

A rusty flavor reached her tongue. The long golden hair had twisted around like a
scorpion’s tail and directly pierced Aleister through the center of the back and out the
stomach.

Yes, the center.

That was a clearly fatal location without even checking to see what organs had been hit.

A twisted woman’s smile appeared on the surface of the hair that twisted into the shape
of a spear or spike.

“If I was just any old demon, that weakening tactic probably would have worked. Much
like it did for Magic God Othinus when she was critically damaged by human hands.”

There was a voice.

A wicked voice came from the base of the golden hair beyond the veil of light.

She reminded them of her position and what the title of Great Demon meant.

She seemed to be forcibly distancing herself from something that could never be broken
down once it was accepted into the heart.

“But I am Great Demon Coronzon, the only demon to have gained my own body of flesh
and blood. Not even Satan and Beelzebub could manage that. The tree is not just to ascend.
Descending it every once in a while can be fun. For better or for worse, this cage of flesh
stabilizes my soul and makes me sturdy enough to remain unshaken when I command an
energy very similar to Telesma.”

Telesma could be used to perform a safe summoning by cutting away a small amount
within a temple. It could also be removed and imbued into a sword or even directly sent
into the human body. It would have been difficult for a human to do the same thing. They
would only be confused if they were told to collapse their physical form and enter a sword.
That was what this was.

One could cast off their cage of flesh and ascend the Sephiroth to reach the knowledge
there, but that made them more susceptible to external forces. On the other hand,
descending the tree placed many different physical restrictions on them, but it gave them
a sturdier self. Normal magicians would hate an “unchanging self” as much as a stubborn
mind or stiff joints, but it was all in how it was used.

Coronzon had endured.

Her armor of physical muscle and bone had deflected the exorcism that was meant to
drive out demons with ease.

“You had failed to defeat me from the beginning.” Coronzon whispered sweetly from close
enough to embrace the silver girl. “It does not matter if you use all the power of this temple
or amplify and weaponize everything you can throw at me.”
Black Cat Witch Mina Mathers...no, baby Lilith held in the woman’s arms held out a tiny
hand.

But Coronzon only scoffed.

“Try it then. Kee hee hee. I am the ruler of the Abyss and the guardian of the knowledge
beyond. No miracle reliant on the Sephiroth or the Qliphoth can kill me. Because I control
who ascends and descends the tree.”

“...”

“If you doubt me, then use your miracles until your soul is no more. You will be no more
successful than your father. Your miracles can only shake the invisible power, so it cannot
reach me while I am protected by a physical body made of flesh and blood. Contact with
you will not trigger mutual annihilation. I cannot afford to become the joker in a game of
old maid, but you are not my match. Let us hope that I can be safely destroyed by the
reaction I receive to the annihilation of everything else in the world. Ah ha, ha ha ha, ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!”

6) Narratively, Coronzon should be comparable to Aiwass with an avatar.

If one looked through the history of Aleister Crowley, they would find only one
transcendent being on the same level as Great Demon Coronzon: Holy Guardian Angel
Aiwass.

Coronzon had power equal to or greater than Aiwass, so she had successfully created an autonomous artificial angel based on the Qliphoth.

I could probably continue thinking up more reasons by scaling off Lilith who can drive MGs away on her own and effortlessly stop High 1-C spells.

---

Note that even if all this is refuted, Coronzon's essence/soul should scale to High 1-C at least.(but that's not the topic of this thread)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Indeed, she got exhausted in World Rejecterland (which could be a testament to how hard it is it to leave), but she didn't get injured in there.

Spoiler: MGs NT19

And there was one problem more important than the logic behind this.

…Unlike the proper earth where 6 or 7 billion lived, this earth contained no lifeforms, human or otherwise. Here, there were only the Magic Gods who had mastered the field of magic until they had achieved the title of a god. Only those true beasts who were satisfied so long as they could wield their extraordinary power without being a nuisance and who were willing to engage each other in unceasing combat in this eternally-regenerating prison where they could go all out.

And now they had found a new toy.

A new rule, never before seen in online mode, had been added.

The Magic Gods gathered around, licked their lips, and spoke up in unison. Just as Coronzon herself had wanted, they did not even attempt to hide their extreme cruelty.

“Looks like we aren’t going to be bored for a while.”

Spoiler: Coronzon NT19

And.

“Abh, hh, abhahh…!!!??”

Somewhere in Academy City, a portion of the perfectly normal scenery split apart and an arm burst out. It sank down, rose back up, and then pulled out a face and torso along with it. At that point, several arms grabbed at the hair and clothing and dragged it all back down again.

“Ooahh!!”

Even so, that being had returned.

Avatar Lola Stuart.

And Coronzon within.

With multiple Magic Gods clinging to her like the sludge of a bottomless bog, she had taken one last large step to force her way back from World Rejecter’s shifted timeline.

“Oh, crap! We got carried away and played around a little too much!”

“Oh, dear…. This is not good. The crack has sealed back up.”

A modified mini-China dress girl with pale skin and a sexy woman with bandages wrapped around her brown skin had been dragged up with her. Those two sounded panicked for once, but it was too late now. They had made so many compromises to reach that catastrophic paradise, but the door had already sealed up tight.

Lola gasped for breath with them tangled around and clinging to her.

And she sensed someone’s gaze on her.

Someone was looking down on her as she tried to gather her strength and stand up like a newborn fawn.

Their appearance had entirely changed.

The fact that they were now a young girl felt very immature.

But Coronzon immediately saw through it.

“Alei…ster…”

Spoiler: Aleister NT19

She raised her leg high despite her short skirt.

“I came to understand some things in the fight against A. O. Francisca. First, your possession is a threat, but Karasuma Fran proved that your avatars’ lives are not fully snuffed out. Second, since you bothered to come back, you must care about Lola’s body. …In other words, some of it remains there, no matter how faint it might be. And don’t even bothering asking what I am talking about. Honestly, if you weren’t so damn unkillable, I would have failed yet again. For that alone, I must thank you.”

She held her leg above Lola’s head while she was pinned down by multiple Magic Gods and unable to move.

“This is a declaration of war.”

Now that she had decided to oppose Lola, she showed no mercy.

“I will take back my daughter. So wait for me in your lonely castle, you filthy bug.”

With that said, Aleister Crowley stomped hard on the Great Demon’s head.

The MGs took one look at her and considered her a fun toy to play with that won't make them bored for awhile. There was a length of unknown time in which Coronzon was left in WR world before she left, and Niang Niang and Nepthys both considered it as them playin a little too hard; moreover, it still left Coronzon as an exhausted mess that immediately fell to the ground in a slump, barely able to say Aleister's name and couldn't stop her from stomping her head.

1) She considered the injuries less problematic than a period.

First off, she explicitly considered them less problematic than a period cuz it do not give her headaches or mess with her thinking (goodness never thought I would type this out)

Spoiler: ... that scene

“It is necessary part of descending to the surface world, but managing a flesh avatar is nothing but a pain.”

“A-are you okay? Now that I look at you, those are some pretty bad injuries.”

“This is far easier to deal with than the blood from within. At least these external wounds do not give me headaches or mess with my thinking.”

“Blood from within?”

“I mean the blood that is meant to be placed inside the Cake of Light.”

“?”

He was not sure what she meant, but if it was internal bleeding, that was a serious issue.

Unlike a broken bone, he could not imagine how to treat that.

He grew pale, but Coronzon gave him a cold look and pouted her lips like a child.

“Don’t lie. Or are you playing dumb to force me to say it myself? At your age, you should be stupidly interested in how babies are made, so surely you aren’t going to claim you innocent enough to have never heard of menstruation.”

“Bff!!” spat Hamazura.

“I only fed you the generic container before anything was sealed inside. Even if you are a normal person without such a strange fetish, you have nothing to worry about here.”

Moreover, the narrator itself stated that it was impressive Coronzon was left with such minor injuries and directly compared it to Aleister's just being severely burnt and injuried after his confrontation with MGs.

Spoiler: Narrator statement in NT22

This was apparently the right thing to do. Or Coronzon believed so at least. It was like rubbing putty on a model or adding a new coat of paint over the old, cracked paint. She began wrapping new bandages over the crushed cake.

And that meant it was necessary.

There were fresh wounds all over Coronzon’s mostly-naked body and they were seeping blood.

Magic God Niang-Niang had done this.

But clashing head-on with that monster and only receiving these injuries was a testament to Coronzon’s great power. Hamazura had no way of knowing, but Crowley had ended up with half his body burned when he challenged the Magic Gods.

2) Magic shouldn't even scale to physicals to begin with, so Niang-Niang should still have High 1-C magic if she does in her first two keys.

Isn't that tied to Niang's phase manipulation... which went away after Aleister's nerf; and it was specifically noted and remarked by the narrator and Nepthys herself that she was the only MG who phase manip after the nerf due to her unique to her circumstances, even if it was a one time use, and that was spent in the WR arc?

3) There's arguments to be made that her sparks negate durability since it's compared to the causality manipulating cosmological phase sparks.

Spoiler: the fight

“Fire Tablet of the Elemental Tablets, thou hast been released, so work within my power. I will now indicate the source of the apocalyptic threat. All creation shall naturally break down and Enochian Magic shall amplify the fire of destruction!!”

Just as the embers were blown away and vanishing, the edge of the unraveling hellfire curtain gathered together once more.

The flames doubled in size from before and became a blazing tornado.

“Wow.”

Magic God Niang-Niang’s invisible scorpion tail – the collection of recreated sparks – was swept away and erased by the explosive flames. Just like the stars in the night sky were swept away by the dawn.

“I see. Coronzon lurks behind the Sephiroth, not the Qliphoth. You’re a demon, but you’re also a gatekeeper who never falls from the tree. I see, I see. You form your power from the laws of the Olam Beriah, not the Olam Asiyah! Yeah, this is interesting!! You can probably earn a participation trophy and an ‘A for Effort’ for this!!”

Yes.

The pure elements did not exist in this world and they would never mix with anything else. Just like pure water and monopoles behaved differently just by being a single pure thing. Even if it did not have the perfect negation ability of Imagine Breaker, it could push the enemy away like a moving wall. Gabriel controlled the same water anyone could use, so why was that archangel such a threat? This was the same. The element was identical, but the level of purity was far greater.

“A human who rose to the level of a god? You mastered magic and then called it quits?”

Coronzon herself was the angel who resided in ZAX, the tenth Aethyr.

And she explained what that meant here.

“Don’t screw with me, you fool who refuses to break down. You are no more than someone who decided to stop partway up the mountain. Whether you ascend the Sephiroth or descend the Qliphoth, a human is still a human. Every last one of you is a puny little thing. The true heights exist beyond your understanding, so allow me to show you what true magic looks like!! My breakdown of all creation will swallow you up and you will be no more, you impurity born of human deeds!!”

“I’m sorry to say it, but you really shouldn’t underestimate a Magic God, you freak.”

To me, this doesn't look like dura-neg. It just looks like it just destroyed Niang's weapon, and that is it. Niang's comment doesn't imply dura-neg either, just that Coronzon did something intersting in her eyes. Granted, this is an area I am not good with, so meh.

6) Narratively, Coronzon should be comparable to Aiwass with an avatar.

Yes, and narratively, Accelerator is a crippled and frail albino who is weaker than a normal high schooler; and he was still able to break the nose of a trained martial artist with a punch and could keep grappling with him for awhile.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Goodness, I can't keep up without having time to gether my thoughts.

 

[Churronzon]

Yeah sorry, I edit my stuff all the time. I imagine it gets annoying when people try to respond...

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah, sorry I edit my stuff all the time. I imagine it gets annoying when people try to respond...

NP, np. But still, multiple people fought, exhausted, and injured Coronzon and we don't actually have a clear idea how strong Aiwass with a vessel is actually is. I don't really see an Ouroboros scaling chain like you.

 

[Churronzon]

Moreover, the narrator itself stated that it was impressive Coronzon was left with such minor injuries and directly compared it to Aleister's just being severely burnt and injuried after his confrontation with MGs.

Indeed, the fight where tanking an attack from a notoriously furious infinite-strength fullpower magic god looking to kill is currently warranted as being City Block level, and soon to go back to "Street level, higher with magic" (or w/e the tiering used to be) after DT's thread goes through.

Spoiler

"Oh, is that you, Aleister? I'm glad to see you're still alive and kicking. Sorry about the
other day. I really shouldn't have let my anger get the better of me at my age."

That was all it took for him to kill.

Rather than follow an exaggerated plan or make careful preparations, he acted on the
rocky waves of his emotions.

[...]

"Your attempt to destroy magic is quite eccentric as well. If you had turned that obsession
in the right direction, you could have been a part of Gremlin too."

"I made some adjustments to myself to ensure that would not happen. That way I can
control something different than you bizarre magicians who can only live in a distorted
phase."

[...]

"Honestly, why did Aleister have to thoughtlessly destroy our hidden world? Maybe we
really should've killed him."

"We are not like Othinus," replied the High Priest. "You yourself said so, Niang-Niang.
Not that we can shamelessly call ourselves harmless."

His gentle and soothing voice led Niang-Niang to raise both hands.

But she was not saying she had been persuaded by his virtuous sermon.

"Don't act so high and mighty, old man. You're the one that got pissed and tried to kill
him first."

Spoiler

"Oh, come on," said Aleister with no hint of emotion in his voice. "Why do you think I
challenged the Magic Gods alone when Othinus was defeated? Wait. Don't tell me. Surely
you didn't actually think a 'human' such as myself could be enraged by a simple stain in
a journal."

"You...don't mean..."

"I had to take the necessary parameters by force. That was all. It did get me laughed at by
some people I know, though."

That was why he had not cared that he had lost.

He had only needed steal the Magic Gods' parameters through direct contact and then
make it back alive.

Isn't that tied to Niang's phase manipulation... which went away after Aleister's nerf; and it was specifically noted and remarked by the narrator and Nepthys herself that she was the only MG who phase manip after the nerf due to her unique to her circumstances, even if it was a one time use, and that was spent in the WR arc?

True, we could go with the magic of Magic Gods being planet level in their High 1-C keys if we want to.

To me, this doesn't look like dura-neg. It just looks like it just destroyed Niang's weapon, and that is it. Niang's comment doesn't imply dura-neg either, just that Coronzon did something intersting in her eyes. Granted, this is an area I am not good with, so meh.

You didn't quote the right part (but it's okay because I forgot to include an important paragraph earlier). That's mostly talking about Coronzon's pure fire destroying Niang-Niang's sparks.

Niang-Niang's magic is compared to the sparks and spray that negate durability.

Anyone who had pursued the system of magic to this point would realize what was
happening when they heard the word “sparks”.

Each of the sage weapons that this Magic God had created by transforming her fingers
were used to manage the vast power of a Shijie-Xian by dividing it up into genres: attack,
defense, recovery, close-quarters, ranged, etc. These miracles would cancel each other out
and refuse to mix if they were combined, so she was essentially constructing walls between
them, placing them in separate frames, and preserving their purity. Just as magic power
and ley lines were different things, the macrocosm of the planet and the microcosm of the
body were linked. The scale was different, but it was the same phenomenon as the world’s
phase system that divided up the different legends and managed them in their own realms
that existed on different levels.

I was hoping supporters would know what sparks are so I wouldn't have to post so many quotes.

“This world contains as many phases as there are divine legends and religions. And the
distance between each phase is not even. The rise and fall of civilizations and traditions
affect the power balance in the real world. When you get down to it, fortune is the sparks
that failed to become miracles. The spray produced by the contact and collision between
phases has a shockingly thin but widespread influence on people. It affects coin tosses,
the order at which dishes are served at a restaurant, meetings and partings, marriages
and divorces...and even people’s deaths. If you see no direct cause for your daughter’s
death, you should assume it is a spontaneous event caused by a gathering of the influence
that so many people are unwittingly affected by.”

“You mean there is no such thing as a spontaneous accident or illness in this world?”
asked the silver-haired young man. “You mean the small things that people accumulate
are an issue of the overlapping phases and, as a result, the entire world will cause slightly
unsanitary conditions to force a deadly illness onto my daughter? Is that what you are
saying, teacher?”

“That is taking it a bit far. Your daughter is nothing special. Everyone is affected by it
equally. But a unified theory like Hermeticism roughly grabs and gathers the overlapping
phases, causing them to collide all the more. I imagine that would make the sparks more
frequent. And this will influence more than just the present. The future is made from the
present, after all.”

Sparks and spray manipulate causality.

Magic is a technique of distorting the world’s causality for your own
purposes. It does not only produce the obvious phenomena right in front of you. It is a
dangerous technique that will follow an unexpected path to later cause an unexpected
change without the magic user even knowing about it. Aleister Crowley had loathed that
and called it sparks and spray. The Battle of Blythe Road had been fought over that.
Anyone who took magic lightly would be consumed by magic. Simon Magus, John Dee,
Cagliostro, Rasputin... When you listed off the names of well-known historical magicians,
it became obvious that most of them met untimely or lonely deaths or went missing and
were simply assumed to have lived out a happy life “somewhere else”. This was the same
reason the experts in the field placed such emphasis on the fundamentals. The better they
knew how fearsome it could be, the more careful they would be. Magical sparks would
come back in an unrecognized form after the magic user had forgotten all about them.
That was one truth of the world.

These causality manipulating sparks made fish eggs spawn out of Touma's arm and made it so that Aleister would inhabit Coronzon's body.

If she unleashed another Magick: Flaming_Sword from point-blank range now, it was all
over. Kamijou Touma had nothing to defend himself with, so the rest of his body would
be reduced to mincemeat.

However.

Magic was a technique of distorting the world’s causality for your own purposes. Its sparks
and spray would eventually find their way back to influence the magic user in unexpected
ways. An action taken to achieve a certain goal could end up crushing that very some goal
in some hidden way.

In this case, that was seen when something burst from Kamijou Touma’s right shoulder
with an unpleasant noise.

It was like dark red fish eggs. But that collection of perfectly triangular surfaces seemed
to symbolize the artificial. Those artificial objects were like the polygons in a video game.
They came in all sizes, they were connected together, and they moved like a single giant
arm.

There was no pain.

This was what he had worked so hard to restrain. It was...

“Wha—?”

There was a deafening straining sound. It did not just come from the shoulder where the
arm had been. Kamijou Touma’s entire body gave off a great din that never should have
come from a human. The control had shifted. Instead of the boy controlling his right
hand’s power, the hidden power now raced throughout the boy’s entire body.

What was going through his head as his body moved against his will?

Or was he capable of taking an objective view of the situation?

“No...it’s going to come out... You have...someone to rely on, don’t you? Then go ask for
their help, Coronzon!!!!!!”

What followed was a sticky sound like bursting bubbles.

The objects that resembled giant fish eggs made from triangular surfaces burst within as
something else made an appearance. But this was not just one thing. That swarm was
clearly larger than the boy’s own body. The boy was not controlling the power; he was
hanging from the power. That was the symbolism here.

“Coronzon, you brought this on yourself. I really, truly did intend to die satisfied this time.
But I could not fully die thanks to you. ...And now I have stepped outside the category of
humanity, which I worked so hard to avoid. Honestly, this really is entirely your fault.”

While she spoke, the woman reached a hand behind her back and grabbed the soaked
blonde hair. She held it like she was preparing a head of wheat to be harvested. The other
hand also reached behind her, but the fingers were held differently. The index and middle
finger were held together.

“Have you forgotten my joint experiment with Neuburg, Coronzon? It had to be halted
because you refused to obey, but that was never actually annulled. Wasn’t this the original
form of the contract we were meant to make? The magician Aleister invites in Coronzon
and gains the knowledge found by crossing the Sephiroth’s Abyss. ...This ended up a little
different, but it is what it is. I had thought it meant you entering my body, but we seem to
have ended up with the reverse. Magical sparks and spray always return to you in the way
you least expect it. I never imagined I would receive that fundamental lesson again now
of all times.”

Edit: Added a scan

 

[DontTalkDT]

In my opinion, Accelerator is the one that shouldn't scale. Or to be specific: This attack of his shouldn't be considered Solar system level physical force, in general he would still be Solar System level.

For one, the whole flesh and blood statement is weird. Like, it says the entire purpose of applying that force on the flesh was to do the astral projection. I'm actually not quite sure how literal of a "blow" that really was.

However, that wouldn't even actually matter. As the text explains, the entire thing was a holistic phenomenon. I.e. the phenomenon that gives the solar system level rating (shacking the galaxy + tree stuff) was bigger than the actual power that was manifested (the astral projection and physical pressure). The macro is used to create a micro effect. That the actual attack on Coronzon is weaker than the galaxy shacking is basically stated in that logic.

 

[Churronzon]

snip

Great points; sounds fine to me.

 

[Aseka]

In my opinion, Accelerator is the one that shouldn't scale. Or to be specific: This attack of his shouldn't be considered Solar system level physical force, in general he would still be Solar System level.

For one, the whole flesh and blood statement is weird. Like, it says the entire purpose of applying that force on the flesh was to do the astral projection. I'm actually not quite sure how literal of a "blow" that really was.

However, that wouldn't even actually matter. As the text explains, the entire thing was a holistic phenomenon. I.e. the phenomenon that gives the solar system level rating (shacking the galaxy + tree stuff) was bigger than the actual power that was manifested (the astral projection and physical pressure). The macro is used to create a micro effect. That the actual attack on Coronzon is weaker than the galaxy shacking is basically stated in that logic.

Nevertheless, it's stated that Accelerator is trying to apply powerful external pressure, by using the power of Clonoth that can shake galaxy. It's not a holistic phenomenon, it's just similar to it. Because holistic phenomenon is used by esper, not in magic.

“Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this temporary body!?”

The microcosm of the body and the macrocosm of the planet were linked.

When something happened to one, it affected the other.

That theory was usually applied to use the micro as a way of moving the macro. To put it extremely simply, refining magic power in the body and moving the arms or legs would distort the larger physical world and produce flames or ice from the hand.

But this monster was different.

He used the macro as a way of moving the micro.

By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person’s flesh and blood.

All to force an astral projection initiated by an external third party.

Now, had the #1 realized how similar this was to the holistic esper power some had hoped to create within the immortal monster sealed for so long inside the Windowless Building and freed by Lightning God Thor?

 

[Aseka]

What I'm trying to say is, Accelerator using energy that flowed from Clonoth or Platinum Wings, shaking the galaxy, and use all energy to force a powerful astral projection, by squishing out Coronzon's soul from her body.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Nevertheless, it's stated that Accelerator is trying to apply powerful external pressure, by using the power of Clonoth that can shake galaxy. It's not a holistic phenomenon, it's just similar to it. Because holistic phenomenon is used by esper, not in magic.

There is no indication that he used all the energy from shacking the galaxy for this move and the explanation is in fact going against that interpretation. I mean, this move really doesn't require lots of physical power to begin with, as he tries to do soul stuff.

Yeah, it is not holistic, but it is stated to be similar. In which way is it similar then, if not in the respect that it uses a massive change to create a comparatively small phenomenon? Like, that's literally all that the holistic thing is about. There is nothing else about the holistic idea that things could be similar to. The whole thing Accelerator did is really very similar in nature to the "destroy a galaxy to create Level 3 Esper power" example.

The narration strongly supports that it is this aspect as well:

The microcosm of the body and the macrocosm of the planet were linked.

When something happened to one, it affected the other.

That theory was usually applied to use the micro as a way of moving the macro. To put it extremely simply, refining magic power in the body and moving the arms or legs would distort the larger physical world and produce flames or ice from the hand.

But this monster was different.

He used the macro as a way of moving the micro.

It species that Accelerator is doing something on the "micro" i.e. small scale by utilizing his macroscopic change.

So, not only is it a reasonable interpretation (we need proof to claim it's strong to begin with), but it is also the most straightforward interpretation of what is explained as well. The only evidence saying otherwise is that Accelerator created a "powerful pressure", which I, for one, am not sure is a physical pressure (instead of a pressure on the soul or something) and for the other... powerful can mean lots of things way less than Solar System level.

(Also, not sure if Clonoth stuff is actually magic. Could, similarly to angel wings, be some high-level esper thing or it could be something that isn't quite either... or it could be a mixture of both.)

[Not important, but I'm also not sure to which degree the power to shake the galaxy came from the Clonoth]

 

[Churronzon]

Does that mean Accelerator's drop of water that blew up Nephthys scales above the holistic physical blow?

Accelerator held the nail of his middle finger with his thumb. He made a light flick like
one might use on the forehead of someone who refused to listen.

And he used it on a drop of water falling from the ceiling.

The water blade shot forward with enough force to easily break through a tank’s front
armor, but Academy City’s strongest Level 5 did not stop there. In the moment when
Nephthys would be taking some kind of countermeasure, he lightly kicked off the floor to
jump up onto the stage.

But.

But.

But.

“Did you really think a Magic God would fear such a puny attack?”

She did not dodge.

Magic God Nephthys did not dodge or even defend!?

“?”

There was a loud sound of thick flesh and blood being torn and crushed. Even if something
highly irregular did happen, the #1 had expected it to be deflected like when an attack
against him failed, but that was not what happened.

It tore right through her.

The area from her right shoulder to her chest and stomach was torn away, leaving a gaping
emptiness in its place. It was like her entire body had been made to represent a crescent
moon.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 11

If not, then the feat in the OP would be used as justification for her current durability.

Regardless, what would Accelerator's dura/justification change to?

 

[Aseka]

Regardless, what would Accelerator's dura/justification change to?

I suggest it would be planet level scale to his AP.

 

[Churronzon]

snip

So this prob causes a circular scaling chain regardless unless we call it an outlier

 

[Churronzon]

Can someone correct me on what the current scaling chain is? I can't tell from the profiles and I wasn't around when the ratings were determined.

I'm guessing it goes Avatarless Aiwass < Coronzon ~ Base Accelerator < 2x Nerfed Magic Gods.

 

[Churronzon]

If no one knows, we might as well just start from scratch and get opinions from literally anyone at this point.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Can someone correct me on what the current scaling chain is? I can't tell from the profiles and I wasn't around when the ratings were determined.

I'm guessing it goes Avatarless Aiwass < Coronzon ~ Base Accelerator < 2x Nerfed Magic Gods.

If no one knows, we might as well just start from scratch and get opinions from literally anyone at this point.

Honestly, I would put Avatarless Aiwass and Coronzon as "equals", so to speak, considering the fact that the Windowless building was set flying off during evening time, Hamazura met Takitsubo at exactly 7, Hamazura called Takitsubo at 9, and everything that happened after was described as "night" - therefore, the both of them fought for several hours straight and Coronzon only got the upper hand on Aiwass after everything was said and done.

... But... If you consider these lines.

“Heh.”

Even now, Aiwass continued to smile.

“My fixation on the world of the living ended when Academy City’s AIM diffusion field was used to release Lilith into the world. I will resume observing from the background. Yes, Coronzon, I will relax and observe the story of a most foolish demon’s defeat.”

“Are you sure you want those to be your last words?”

“Then I will add a few more. …It is time you experienced the loneliness of Urashima Tarou, you mere debris.”

It could be argued that Aiwass threw the fight "at the end" since everything with Lilith was finished and decided that he would let the Magic Gods take care of her - ... Another point to this arguement is that Aleister knows exactly when and where he could find Coronzon after she dragged herself outside of the hellpit that is known as the Magic Gods feeling "romantical" (treating her like she's the goddamn sandbag from Smash Bros)

... Doesn't really help other scaling issues such as Aiwass' power sharing responsibility as one of the factors that killed two Magic Gods, Sprengel pulling up and doing a SA2 Eggman all over the scaling by her casually one-shotting Aiwass and the extremely prideful and overly confident (despite being 15cm tall) Othinus stating that she's a magician greater than a magic god, Kingsford doing the same while dunking both Anna and Aiwass at the same time... and CRC probably about to do the same in GT9.

... There are also issues with Accelerator scaling to 5-B, i.e, his greatest feat (OT13 one) prior to the Coronzon fight is literally 140853.081x weaker than him in NT22 and onwards. Aleister considering Mathers as possibly even more powerful than Coronzon despite everything he knew beforehand. It being stated that "If Nephthys and Niang-Niang had run into any of the other Golden magicians, no one could have predicted the result"... and Mathers bluntly being above all of the other Golden magicians

 

[Churronzon]

What's your take on Accelerator's drop of water tearing apart Nephthys?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

What's your take on Accelerator's drop of water tearing apart Nephthys?

I perceive the feat as Piercing Damage/Surface Area shit since it was a tiny attack used against a person that wasn't even trying to defend herself.

The issue of "cutting" and "piercing" attacks comes up as a result of the difference in surface area between the character being attacked and object being used in attacking them. Even in real-life, a person can do a lot more damage to somebody else with a sword than they can with their bare hands.

For example, if a character withstands an explosion as their primary durability justification than the energy of the explosion that they tanked has hit them over a large surface area of their body. However if all of that energy were focused in an extremely narrow area of effect such as the width of a blade or the point of a needle - then the energy would more than likely pass through the character's body much easier. Even a weaker attack than the aforementioned explosion could do more visible damage by being concentrated.

Extremely fine attacks such as with monomolecular wire or extremely sharp blades may effortlessly slice or pierce a character without much energy being applied so additional context should be investigated when rating the AP of somebody who primarily attacks via this method.

 

[Churronzon]

Aiwass' power sharing responsibility as one of the factors that killed two Magic Gods,

I don’t remember this; what are you referring to

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I don’t remember this; what are you referring to

Zombie, High Priest, and Aleister quote of needing the A.A.A and Aiwass to actually stand a chance against the Magic Gods in NT22.