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Time it happens, Fire Phoenix guy, this one-eyed swordswoman's gonna outskill your boy!

Iapitus The Impaler said:
Just to make sure, the comment you made is supposed to respond to my initial comment on the skill scaling of Musashi, right? I just wanna make sure, because it seems to match up pretty close but I'm not sure due to it seemingly being in a different order
Click to expand...
Yes,, i tried to keep everything in order.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
The reason i don't like to start the debate is, Ikki has so many skills he fairs better as an answer to anything the opponent can do rather than listing all of his feats. What puts Ikki's "copy" above normal is he literally creates a style from scratch and perfecting it. Besides it also matters on what they can copy from a style and on how much info and time.
Not all martial arts are all that useful in combat. And Musashi definitely doesn't scale to knowing stuff like dagger arts or bow arts as a swordmaster. Ikki in sword arts alone knows more than people knew existed (long forgotten styles).

Ikki fights unconscious too, and i remember there was something about something similar with the mind becoming one with the blade, will need to recheck for the actual quote though. But he can fight normally while being actually unconscious though.

That's just cus he's not skilled enough. The quality of what he copies also matters, similar to how Garou can copy most styles easily, but he can't replicate Bang's style.

It depends on how the "repelling" works. And false Assassin's ability to replicate from rumors, ikki did the same, a lot of styles he copied were just forgotten in old documents that were stopped being taught. Though growing a 3rd arm is not skill unless it has at least some form of explanation for at least how it was supposed to be done.

Ikki's magic control (which is basically just skill at using magic) is superior to Shizuku Kurogane who can purify water at an atomic level in less than seconds, she can also completely reform her own body doing the same thing. He should also be superior to Kiriko Yakushi who's a pretty darn busted healer (better than Shizuku) she could restore someone's legs by manipulating his body so that it divides just enough mass from the upper body to restore the legs. While ikki can't do this in the form of healing, his control is better than this.

And these are just basic stuff without going into things like Trackless Step, Edel sword style, perfect vision, off season sakura etc.
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I see. Well, Imperial Privilege users aren't technically power copying users, but its fair to think of it that way. For lower end users, they need some sort of basis to learn new abilities, like they have to already loosely know art before they can grant themselves the Art Appreciation/Fine Arts skill, which basically let's the user almost always be able to tell what any given "Artistic" object/armament is (including something like a well crafted sword, so they can use it to identify who people are) even if they have never seen it before, or never heard about it in life. However, Higher end users are able to gain new abilities with No basis at all, and can even gain abilities which modify their body, such as Romulus intentionally sealing his divinity skill. Cleopatra is one of the most stark users of this, by using Imperial Privelege, she goes from being a servant who shouldn't even be able to engage in close combat with any decently competent servant, to being able to keep up with any knight Class servant who isn't incredibly high end (Basically, Swordsman, Lancers, Archers, etc. the directly combat applicable servants). I don't think I ever claimed that all of the martial arts that exist are directly combat applicable? Sure he knows shit like Tai Chi or whatever, but I'm not trying to scale from that, I'm scaling from the ability to know every single martial art and the ability to have a new martial art for any given situation. Also, I'm more scaling off of the fact that he knows every single martial art, I'm not claiming she surpasses him in something like the ability to fight in the vacuum of space. Cool, Red Hare can naturally use Martial Arts no one currently knows exists, since there are no known martial arts for fighting underwater or, idk, fighting in the vacuum of space.

Fighting unconcious is reactive attacks/defense, which the Eternal Arms Mastery users do not have access to. Being one with your blade is pretty good shit, but it is a step bellow since Lancelot can do it with basically anything he picks up kek

Oh he can do it on par with the original, down to the rank. This includes she superior to him in physical strength, yet it is still the same NP/technique. I'm also checking into this but iirc he is actually able to copy Okita's sword technique, and I dead ass only just learned she is someone else who has bypassed humanity limitation or something which is genuinely mind blowing. Her sword technique does a thing where she does multiple successive cuts with such technique that she ******* collapses causality. I know this is some extra info but I'm genuinely shocked lol. So anyway, I guess Izo is someone who can copy sword techniques beyond the scope of human skill. They still surpass his ability tho, since even he can't replicate Musashi's sword skills. I guess Izo is another dude who they can scale above but not like add to the composite properly.

They repel attacks with a combination of the usage of 11 techniques that are so absolute that it is considered to be defense on par with full classed divine spirits. Depending on the translation, he should even have a martial arts technique which can repel attacks on the level of Saver. She was able to give herself a third arm due to the Hassan's body modification arts. They are masters of their craft, most of them augmenting themselves in different ways to gain new techniques, from fusing their arm with a demon to gain access to curses, to making every part of a person toxic, including their bodily fluids, breath, skin, hair, etc.

What is this supposed to be in response to? Or is it just meant to be more general hype for his skill? Are these spells high difficulty?

I can't wait. I see we both got more fun stuff waiting
 
I'll just honestly stay the hell away from this.

Wait, no, just one remainder.

Izo can't copy Tsubame Gaeshi or Okita's thing. Both are mystic sword techniques or some shit like that, which is one of the limitations of stuff he can't copy. Others are techniques inherent to the properties of the weapon and some other dumb stuff I don't remember.
 
Well that seems pretty decent copying, but again Ikki's copy is superior by virtue of being capable of not just copying the style, but instead learning everything about it (principles, history, ideas etc) and instead creating the style from scratch resulting in him perfecting the style as well as coming up with techniques even the original users did not know, basically achieving the peak of what an art can do, eclipsing it's former copy.

Martial arts....just ugh at best. Knowing many martial arts isn't exactly more skill, just more knowledge, most of them you can't even use with a sword unless proven (whereas Ikki has shown the ability to use rapier, kodachi, odachi, dagger etc techniques using his sword). As for fighting underwater or in vacuum (which idk why it would make it anything that great (considering it should be easier than what Ikki did when fighting BB which is basically fight in the air, but not vacuum, making it harder as he was being constantly being pulled down by gravity). But the idea is...does everything need a style? If a person is skilled enough he can fight underwater, he doesn't need a martial art for it. It's like saying, a kick boxer can't fight underwater unless he masters a style that allows it. It's really no different, just more skill to be used to harsher enviroments. And to top it all off, this isn't in the vacuum of space, this is on land, any kind of skill that regards the vacuum or water isn't taken into consideration because well...it isn't there. Same as how we don't count cooking skill if it's not a cooking contest.

So they can't fight unconscious? I guess this would give ikki an edge against any attempt at knocking him out, as it wouldn't end the fight, but that's about it i guess. As for the becoming one with the sword there are several things to note:

  • Ikki can only become one with his sword because that's his weapon. You can't own a sword and say "he became one with his axe". Similarly Muashi can only become 1 with her sword if she scales. In this fight i mean.
  • What can she do by becoming 1 with the sword? What does she achieve? Because from what you stated before, it seems what ikki can do by becoming 1 with the sword surpasses what they can do.
Also as i was reading this point i remembered when the statement about becoming 1 with his sword came up (Ikki vs Amane), found the quote (just a part of the quote, not to make my post 1 km long):

The errors of Nameless Glory happen far faster than the limit of reflex for humans. You will not make it in time if you think about it with your head......However, there exists one exception. In the past, a certain famous swordsman achieved enlightenment at the end of his swordsman career ÔöÇÔöÇ into the realm of ÒÇîIsshintouÒÇì."


That was combining heart, body and sword into one, the essence of sword and heart as one.


Only those who trained to the extremity and crossed over countless deadly moments could arrive at that epitome.


"The swords of those swordsmen in this realm would slash their enemies faster than the wielders' will. For any kind of change in their condition, without needing to think, their muscles, marrow and cells, with form and technique carved from the tens and hundreds of thousands of repetitions, would respond to any kind of change in condition, guiding the body into the most optimum action without the interference of mind. What Kurogane is doing is none other than this. No matter how his posture collapses, no matter what kind of unexpected situation happens, that man's body knows how to fix it.

So i assume this point is kinda rendered moot because he cannot replicate Okita's mystical sword? What's the best thing he has copied past this?

Ikki can do the "repelling" with Madoka, where he attacks the opponent with the same force he was hit with, practically borrowing/stealing their power. As for the body control, seems like it's mostly similar to what ikki does with his body control (squeeze all his cells for energy, amp his stats by a ton, reflect and deflect attacks, have energy run through his body without hurting him, restart his own heart after it stops, fix his nerves after they have been fried etc).

This was an answer to the "can open wounds while having clouded thoughts etc". The spells are high difficulty, just for context, farting out fire with magic is considered impressive. And the top tiers can do shit like this xD. Here is a quote from when she reconstructed her own body:

"Aoiro Rinne―I've come up with an amazing technique, right?"


Shizuku spoke with a face that was slightly boastful. At Shizuku's explanation, Wallenstein became more and more pale.

"Come… up with it!? Do you know what you've done to yourself? Do you understand it!?"

Wallenstein's discomposure was natural. Because although Aoiro Rinne was temporary, it was a technique that severs one's own life.

"With a top-class magic control, you can reconstruct something, but it's impossible to do so after dying…! No, even if you could do it, if you make the slightest error in reconstituting the trillions of cells in the human body, I don't even know how difficult it would be…! To use that kind of power on your own body…! Are you sane, you little…!?"

Certainly there was great merit in overriding the physics of an attack. But to do so, an overly powerful technique was necessary. The burden of risk was too great. Therefore to Wallenstein in his consternation, Shizuku―

"I'm plenty sane. If it's me, it can be done, I believed."

―declared so, as if it was nothing.


Here is Amane saying that even small magic use like making ice out of water or outright just creating things and aiming with magic is a very complex process:

Even though it's such a simple action, there are people who twist their ankles, or get tripped by a small stone, resulting in failure. Let alone magic, which requires complicated configuration operation and trajectory calculation......it can't be helped if you failed, right?"


Here is Shizuku using her ability to purify water:

Touka, at this point, had already understood the advantage she had against Shizuku.

It was the time required to execute techniques.

Shizuku needed to pay attention to every single molecule of water, removing any impurities to create pure water that had an attribute of insulation, to dodge the lightning. It was an extremely nerve wracking, delicate operation.

In comparison, Touka only needed to clad her slashes with lightning and send them flying towards Shizuku. It didn't really require a delicate procedure.

There is in another scene which i can't find right now where it states that she purifies the ions and stuff like that. But yeah this is all just Shizuku and Ikki's stated to be better than her at this stuff.

And yeah this is gonna get more fun the more it continues. If we continue with posts this long we may even get an Ikki vs Musashi part 2 xD.
 
Though if im allowed to use what Edel did against Ikki as a skill feat, since Edel stated in this arc that the difference between them in skill is very small. Then Ikki just stands there and sends vibrations practically incapping Musashi without even needing to move
 
Eh, see, stuff like this is where thinking of it as power copying kinda breaks down. Thinking of it as more in line with creating a new skill or technique may be a better way to think of it, but the quirks of how the various servant systems regard skills means that stuff like gaining the history around something could be just a basic part of the ability or some super high end shit. They aren't exactly "creating" a new skill, but it functions similar to it, since higher end users are just getting higher end skills as long as they aren't unique to a specific person. They can either far surpass the person who they learned about the skill from, or they could be a step behind them. It really depends on what specific skill they are gaining in question.

It isn't that he like, knows they exist. Theoretically any of the grand casters should know that the martial arts he knows exists, but he has actually mastered them, which is a skill feat. Most of the harsh enviroments I mentioned can't be fought effectively in with any given conventional martial art. The US army has actually heavily researched means to successfully incapacitate someone in aquatic combat in a non-lethal manor, and despite their copious amounts of resources, they have yet to find one. Also, just to be clear, Red Hare's ability isn't "I am skilled enough that I can respond to any given situation" which, although it would be impressive, falls short of his actual ability of "I have a full blown martial art to respond to any given situation." I'm also not claiming that Musashi would necesarilly be able to fight in the vacuum of space better than Red Hare (although, she could, but that's beside the point), its that she has reached a level of mastery that even if you took the total sum of the hypothetical "skill points" being put into different martial arts all into sword combat (think of min-maxing in an RPG), Musashi and Kojiro would still surpass him in skill.

Well, Musashi is a sword fighter so if it came down to her getting a clean hit then ikki would be dead at that point, but I'm fairly sure it would also be true the other way around. Also, reactive defense/attack isn't a skill feat, but the ability to fight with the same level of skill even after you dumped every mental illness you can think of on them, is one. Musashi doesn't use a Sword-style in which she "becomes one" with her blade, even Pre-Zero, although it does produce a similar fruit since she is able to use her mentality perfectly in line with her blade, but she does far surpass the "lesser" arts which produce the ability to become one with their blade. People who become one with their blade have the ability to fight at peak skill despite any level of mental illness they have, but on the other hand, Musashi has surpassed thought and feeling itself due to the mastery over her blade.

I see, what is your point of this quote? It has some loose similarities to the void they reached, but this seems to more so be about becoming one with it instead of transcending it like Musashi and Kojiro can do.

Well, given his qualifications I would say his power copying is actually less impressive than him just being able to stand up against Okita, but I'll answer your question. Among the NP that fall within the rules of which he can power copy, guarantee that his attacks do not miss/fail via not valuing his own life (this is without the use of Fate Manip or anything like that), inflict instant death that works based on the target's mentality instead of resistance to instant death, have his body not be impeded by any damage or effects he takes up until the point he falls over dead, etc.

He may be able to "repel," but it isn't close to the level of which Hozoin can do it. As I mentioned, his technique is so absolute and absurd that he can block the numerous types of attacks I mentioned before, as well as repel attack on the level of the full blown ******* Buddha. I mentioned the Hassan body-modification arts to give context for her ability to give herself a ******* third arm to copy a technique from as little as rumors in some cases. Basically, her giving herself a third arm is, in fact, a skill feat, which is what you contested.

I see, well, my point was that nightingale can do this via raw skill, without the help of magic, while being mentally hampered. Using a magic comparison to it doesn't really help. Also, that does sound like some decently impressive magic feats, but given that those are still things within the bound of "human" limitation in the RKnC verse, they would still not take the level of ability of a True Magician, whose abilities are completely outside the reaches of things that can be obtained with Magecraft. Just in case you forgot, Kojiro is skilled enough that he is able to replicate phenomena on the level of True Magic, through raw skill. The difference between shitty magic users in RKnC does seem to be extreme, but it pails in comparison to the difference in skill levels between mages in Fate, even ignoring True Magician or trying to scale to things like AP difference. As an example:

  • Caster of Black: Most decently competent modern mages would struggle to create a single Golem on par with his quality over the course of a year, even with the amount of stacking knowledge and skill from generation to generation, but he is able to create 30+ top tier golems on a daily basis, and several thousand over the course of several months. This isn't even mentioning his ability to craft his ultimate golem, Adam, on the short timeframe of 2 months, which is a Golem of such high quality that it successfully replicates the miracle of the first creation of mankind, and can even overwrite the existence around it into the guardan of eden, successfully integrating another absurdly high skill level magecraft, of a Reality Marble. Reality Marbles in general are supposed to be something you can't obtain through raw research, and it is such a high tier magecraft that to even manifest one you need to be able to resist The World (basically the state of existence itself, but trying to explain such a complicated cosmological topic in detail isn't really doable rn) constantly trying to overwrite the internal reality you have constructed.
  • To summarize, he can perform 2 absurdly high tier feats of magecraft on a fraction of the timeframe it takes mage families (stacking their skill and research from generation to generation) to even create a golem on the level of his basic golem. One of these feats is a miracle on par with God (Capital G, not some random ass lower case g divine spirits), and the other is a feat of magecraft that people aren't even supposed to be able to obtain via research over several life times.
  • Avicebron isn't even that broken of a Caster servant in the context of Fate, but I think this makes him an even better representation of the skill difference between mages.
Yeah, we might just have to lol.
 
Though I will change strategy. Since at this point we're just arguing what they can do instead of how they counter each other. We can make another thread if ya ever plan on dethroning ikki from the most skilled character in the wiki.

i don't know why it took me so long to realize that the current debate is useless as it doesn't lead to who will win
 
Eh, I think we are getting somewhere. Yeah, we have been arguing what they scale from so that we can determine who has the skill advantage. I thought we agreed to set aside how their hax counter eachother when we started the skill debate portion

I mean, I'm gonna be real with you Earl, this skill debate is about all Ikki has on his side. We set aside the hax debate but Musashi almost certainly has the advantage there.

Btw, what do you think about Yagyu vs Edelweiss?
 
Not hax.

How skill counters skill. Basically what are Musashi's skill techniques (not feats). And Ikki's skill techniques. And who would win.

Because what we're doing is what's deemed more impressive and i can continue, but it seems we're getting nowhere in terms of the actual fight. Because if we don't argue how the techniques counter each-other, then we can't just go like "skill advantage = win".
 
Well, Musashi isn't exactly in the business of having a multitude of techniques. There are certainly fighters in Fate who are like this, such as Ushi and Lu Bu, but Musashi is not one of them. She has her two sword style, Battle Continuation EX, and the various hax abilities which are all a product of her skill techniques.

I mean, for the most part we can. The way that Musashi's abilities works means that any given flaw in a technique means she will find a way around it and exploit that flaw to its maximum potential. Anything short of Yagyu's ability to account for every possibility she can analyze a way for her to win, and then poor her entire being into making that come about. Even if you remove the hax aspect of her techniques, the natural implication of the duals with the heroic spirit swordmasters is that she would be able to draw out possibilities after finding a way to win just like they could if she didn't have her mystic eyes.
 
I see.

That's same as ikki. Anything made by humans is flawed, if there is any flaw whatsoever ikki won't overlook it. But it wouldn't work on his perfected styles.

Ok then imma start with some techniques from ikki. How can Musashi deal with:

Trackless Step

Edelweiss' sword style

Ten i Muhou

Seigan no Kamae

Dokuga no Tachi

Oikage's death hax
 
That's not really the same thing as what I said but ok. Given that you probably would have mentioned it so far, I'm guessing even his perfected techniques do not account for every possibility, I mean it in the sense of "if there is a way for Musashi to attack where this technique will not function, then she will."

Trackless step is countered by Musashi already having enough calculation power to deal with the details he will attempt to overwhelm her with. Her mentality also Grants her the focus to ignore all the extraneous details of the technique, find an outcome where she wins, and then does exactly what needs to be done to bring it about

I'm not exactly clear on what this technique is supposed to be. It sounds like a speed boost which also makes your attacks silent, both of which are gonna mean jack shit here unless there is some context I am missing or I have fundamentally misunderstood the technique.

Sounds like a worse version of Hozoin's stances and her Nothingness. We already know a swordsman of her mentality or comparable can bypass Nothingness. If you want a specific answer that comes to mind, then she can just fire her Noble Phantasm at close range, which has too much AoE for him to dodge, in addition to even assuming he could dodge her Stando Powa kek.

Musashi's ability to check every possible outcome of a situation to find one that suites her naturally counters this. The "one place" she would attack would be the "one place" she needs to attack to bypass the stance, although she wouldn't be effected by it since she has transcended the need for her mind or consciousness

Her servant like existence naturally counters this. Worst comes to worst she just cuts the karma of his sword when he attempts this

Her noble Phantasm wards off untimely deaths, so this is gonna do nothing
 
It's not like ikki's gonna allow that to happen but eh anyway.

Trackless Step- Calculation power doesn't help. Shizuku Kurogane who has the feats i mentioned above having stupid calculation power is was owned by the technique so hard they said "she can't deal with Trackless Step"

Acceleration negation, it makes attacks impossible to perceive (due to not accelerating) and soundless.

It's not dodging, he wards things off with his body. Basically everything slides off him. Attacks, projectiles etc, he just wards everything off with his body while keeping his sword in position.

Actually, that's the idea. You can't bypass the stance itself. It's just ikki blocking. There are some few "oppenings" but that's exactly why it works. You try to aim to break the stance ikki uses his massive prediction and precog and knows exactly what you'll do and blocks it. Rinse and repeat until there aren't anymore attacks you can try so you just end up repeating it. If you end up repeating it you practically lost, because you are stuck doing the same moves.

Cuts the karma of his sword? Wot?

What does that mean?
 
That remains to be seen kek

Ok, but as I mentioned, even if raw calculation power cannot bypass the technique, her mentality naturally lets her ignore the irrelevent details and variables

I'm... gonna assume that that does not mean what I think it means. It sounds like it prevents a change in velocity lol, but I'm assuming that's just not what it is. Also, cool, but people on the level of Kojiro are already able to determine the location and lengths of attacks they cannot percieve such as Artoria's invisible air. Even if they couldn't do that, then Musashi can still determine where exactly he would be attacking due to her calculations

OHHH, that makes way more sense. So its like Alvida's slip-slip fruit. Musashi bypasses this by attacking his soul directly.

She wouldn't do the attack if it was one that would fail. If she saw that even the opennings that she saw would fail, then she would fire her Noble Phantasm instead, and render this stance useless.

Its unfortunately not explained very well, but it basically means she destroys the "energies" maintaining an object/being or something. It is technically classified as fate manip but its a really odd form of it and even beings who are acausal still have Karma. Beings can actually reach a point where they have collected enough negative karma to maintain their existence with that alone, which is how the Heroic Spirit Swordmasters have obtained their properties that make them absurdly hard to kill. When she cuts the karma and certainty of an object, they can seemingly no longer maintain their structure or existence, if that makes sense.

Speaking of which, I just noticed that Ikki's sword is a product of his soul. Beyond just the feedback that is given based on the usual breaking of his blade, this means that Musashi can cut his soul and karma via attacking his blade with hers if she goes for it directly. What decides this match may not even be Skill or the vast majority of their hax arsenals, but just the kind of swords they fight with.
 
Her mentality makes her more prone to Trackless Step. Trackless Step specifically makes ikki an "irrelevant detail" which her mind would block out. She is literally more vulnerable than normal people because she masters the very thing Trackless Step exploits.

That but in reverse. Negates acceleration. It goes to top speed instantly. There is no going from 0 to Max. If movement starts, it starts at max. I mean, her calculations, im pretty sure Shizuku dwarfs her calculations, yet it doesn't work.

How does the soul attacking work? Also Ikki resists soul attacks.

How does this sight of her work? Keep in mind ikki's massively resistent to most types of prediction. Future vision via desperado trait and prediction via skill. He's close to edel in skill which stella who can analyze every other opponent couldn't read a single thing about her. Also what does her Noble Phantasm do?

That seems pretty lit, but it wouldn't work. Even other desperados or beings who can affect desperados can't affect ikki.

Depends can she even break it? The device of a desperado is imbued with their fate. As a desperado you can't cut it even with dura neg (from what Wallenstein has shown). Breaking a blade isn't as easy as you think. Their souls are their souls, fate and magic. So it's a pretty strong soul to say the least, you need to at least have more magic than the user to even hope to break the sword.

Though you didn't answer my last question. How does her noble phantasm ward off untimely death? How does it deal with Oikage? I don't get it.
 
SpookyShadow said:
._.
That actually might be immunity if they really force their soul out of their body
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Nah, they still have a soul, but the strength of the blade is dependent on the soul. And their blades tank High 6-A attacks and don't budge. That's why they strictly resist "attacks" on the soul. Because their soul is plain strong.

Stuff like soul sucking though gets a pass.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
snip
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That's not what the profile describes, and even so, the profile itself says that if a target does not need to rely on their conciousness then the technique won't work on them. Zero Musashi has transcended the need for her mind or conciousness due to her swordsmanship

Ok cool. That being said, she doesn't need to rely on her raw calculation power to bypass it since it has already been shown that someone with Kojiro's mentality (or a comparable one like Musashi), can already deal with a similar technique: Artoria's Invisible Air which is basically the same thing with different means. Instead of not interacting with the air via their accel manip to conceal their blade, Saber instead uses a bounded field that manipulates the wind directly to conceal her blade, bending light and rendering it functionally shapeless from an outsider's perspective (along with some other fancy magecraft shenanigens).

She can cut her target's soul directly from the ether. Usually Servants have their spiritual core (their equivalent of a soul) connected to their Brain and Heart, so despite their persistent regen you can usually put them down via taking out one of these. However, in Shimosa, Musashi was fighting the heroic spirit swordmasters who instead have their spiritual core/soul disconnected from their body entirely, instead having it exist in the ether. Unless you can destroy them to the extent that not even a finger or speck of blood remains, you kinda have to be able to attack their soul and/or destroy their karma to put them down, which is what Musashi gained the ability to do so with her blade. Also, all beings within the nasuverse who have bodies resist soul manipulation, and servants do to an even greater extent, so its already pretty decently above baseline for soul manip

She uses her calculation based precog, which as you know also grants her the ability to see the outcomes of a fight. Even that aside, she can view the actual future worlds themselves, so depending on a cosmological clash, his acausality probably won't be enough. In addition, she can calculate the outcomes of a battle, checking every possible way a fight can go then discarding those that do not fit her purposes. If she views every way that she can attack the stance, with all of them failing, then she will fire her NP instead to render it useless.

His acausality wouldn't render him apart from the Karma system tho, not unless you have feats proving it would, since even acausality does not allow you to not have karma.

Yes, she certainly can. She can cut the Karma of his blade, which she could do to Yagyu even after he had accumulated a stupidly excessive amount of negative karma via basically going out of his way to perform the full list of Sins in Buddhism (like, there is dead ass a list of buddhist defilements and he did all of them), which is how he was able to survive the Curse of Annihilation even while human. Hell, he had so much Karma that he straight up elevated himself from a normal human to an existence like a servant through raw Karma, surpassing even legit servant with Karma of their own. Also, if we wanna go via the route of his soul having durability, then she can still cut it via raw AP.

Oh, my bad, I thought your question was about the point above. It says right on her page:

"While it is classified as an Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm, it is in actuality an Anti-Fate Noble Phantasm, as it utilizes her Heavenly Eyes to their fullest potential to cut fates and achieve her desired outcome. Due to cutting fates, it wards off all forms of untimely deaths, karmic damage, curses, and tragedies in a single sweep."

I thought his Oikage was the same as his other death manip, my bad. Her concept of "Zero" has already surpassed other sword concepts such as Munisai's pereless "One." You would need to prove his sword concept is already above other sword concepts, as a clash of the two would likely result her her's trumping his.
 
Hmm I would love to continue but as ppl have told me, it's useless.

Apparently musashi can affect 2A resistance with her hax which would make type 4 completely useless. Meaning this is a hax stomp....
 
Its just decisive battle IMO, Ikki still have a wincon, Musashi Hax able to kill Ikki doesnt mean Ikki cant kill her tho, is just very unlikely
 
GLHF22 said:
Its just decisive battle IMO, Ikki still have a wincon, Musashi Hax able to kill Ikki doesnt mean Ikki cant kill her tho, is just very unlikely
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Actually Musashi just hax stomps if her fate stuff is on a 2-A level. Ikki doesn't use his hax decisively like Musashi does.
 
Aaaaaand I get trolled by Swordsman Ikki once again. I swear, everytime I see a thread with Ikki in the tittle I am "Cool a Saint Seiya match!" but it's always Swordsman dude skilling someone. X(
 
Then you must be glad you weren't trolled this time as its not a swordsman skilling another swordsman, its a swordman haxing another swordsman.
 
TartaChocholate said:
Aaaaaand I get trolled by Swordsman Ikki once again. I swear, everytime I see a thread with Ikki in the tittle I am "Cool a Saint Seiya match!" but it's always Swordsman dude skilling someone. X(
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Firephoenix Ikki has been replacing Phoenix Ikki as the main Ikki for a while lol

Not until the "Make Saint Seiya great again" Project finishes
 
"Let's put a skilled dude with a sword againts a smurf with 2-A fate hax and let's not mention it until halfway match"
 
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