Time it happens, Fire Phoenix guy, this one-eyed swordswoman's gonna outskill your boy!

[Firephoenixearl]

Sorry, had to make you say it. Couldn't resist temptation xD. Anyway ok then i will argue skill when im free.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway on to the skill debate:

Then i guess Ikki takes this point. Ikki perfects it to make it better in every way than the original user and learns everything about the style, just to quote something from blade steal and this too.

Ugh, my point still stands. Ikki has fought in the air (while being pulled down by gravity, which is harder than vacuum) and people like Naseem Al-Salem who are massively below Ikki in terms of skill have fought under water without needing a martial art. So having martial arts to do everything doesn't exactly make it more impressive than just outright doing it. And Ikki can just copy those styles either way so eh.

Ikki can fight at peak skill completely without using his mind (which is a step above every mental illness) and it's not just reactive defense if he can literally use all his skill stuff like that, his soul shrieking, all of his senses screaming, his body battered to the point of questioning how he's alive at all, having had his soul actually crushed/broken (his sword) and much more. No matter what you bring from Fate, this is a bad point to contest Ikki on xD. About being one with your blade, Ikki's version seems far superior. What his version essentially does is not simply fight despite the state of mind (which he has already acomlished as stated above), he can "think" with his sword and body. What this does is make him completely unaffected by any form of probability or possibility, making it impossible to effectively have him to fail at something. So ikki surpasses here too. Ikki does normally what these guys do by becoming one with their sword and does more by becoming one with the sword.

Attacks not miss? That seems very basic and NLF. That's simple skill, someone with far more skill will be able to dodge. Someone like Musashi would dodge an attack from him.

Death based on the targets mentality? Care to explain this one? But then again ikki has far too many mentality exploiting skills he has copied.

Not be impeded by damage up until he dies? Ikki has that normally . xD

Repeling an attack on the level of Buddha...he's 6-C. The rest is either via control or existence. There is no mention of him having anything like a multiversal attack. Not to mention to repel something in the first place it has to be small, you can't repel something interstellar. This seems iffy to say the least. So need context and why this even makes sense in the first place. Otherwise it ends up as the SCP guy who defeated a multiversal army of Low Godly's with a sword.

Ikki has control on the atomic level via power scaling. But you again missed the point. To grow a 3rd arm is not skill. As you'd basically need to increase the number of cells in your body. So again, without actual statement of how this is done, it won't really count.

That's not actually applicable. You're using equalization of magic in Rakudai and Fate to have someone come out as more skilled. Just no. Also it's control of magic. Which is skill. Having magic is not skill, controling it is.

And those 2 last points don't really add anything to this. I don't see how that comes close to the magic control Shizuku has.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

As I said, those aspects aren't comparable. Ikki's power copying is limited to martial arts, where as Imperial Privilege users can gain almost any skill set they want. They also can learn the history behind it, but only if that actually has to do with a given skill set. Also, there isn't exactly a "perfect" form of a skill within Fate, but they can gain it on a scale greater than the enemy. They are still relative to eachother in skill requirements at the very least, and Musashi far surpasses them

I'm not sure how just pulling a drummed up fighting style out of nowhere to try and fight somewhere is superior to having a full on martial art and plethora of techniques to deal with that situation. Care to explain? Having a martial art to deal with a situation reflects are far superior level of combat mastery than just contriving something. In addition, you kinda forgot the other part of this point. If you took the total sum of the "skill points" that Red Hare took to learn all these martial arts, and applied all of them into swordsmanship, Kojiro, Musashi, and Yagyu would still be superior to him.

Any decent Battle Continuation user can pull off the feat you described. Can I get scans of him fighting without his mind, not just while he is asleep or unconscious? As I said, Musashi has also surpassed the art of becoming one with her blade, and her fighting style is not about those fruits of labor. What you said sounds basically the same as the eternal arms mastery users, just with some modified details.

Well, it's more impressive due to the context of who the technique was who was meant to take out. Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of china and also one of the lost belt kings, is insanely good (OP Law Hax, planet scale mind hax low balled, so unbeatable that the planet gave up on trying to defend humanity since he could do a better job, hes the ultimate Life Form, so broken that the time tree decided it was illegal for him to be this powerful so his timeline got culled, etc.), but as I said before, I mentioned what he could copy just to answer your question. His power copying feats are less impressive than just his ability to keep up with Okita

I answered this because you asked, it's not really relevant to the debate. It's an execution technique, and you can read about it on Assassin's page

Yes, I know, I just said it because it was one of the NP he can copy, since you asked. It's more for you information, not for the debate

Dude, we have already talked about more absurd skill stuff previously in the debate. His techniques obviously allow him to ignore the AP of incoming attacks up to that level with his defensive stances, similar to how Ikki can allow energy to pass through him, allowing him to tank far higher attacks. He is a Buddhist monk, so I have no doubt he has some mystical aspect to his techniques, but he is such a good spearman that many consider him divine. Its bullshit, but not as bullshit as some of the other stuff we have talked about on this thread.

Creating a third arm via body manipulation techniques is skill. She isn't creating new matter or cells, she is reorienting her body to make them into the form of a new arm. Self surgery, chemistry, and biology all came into play here

Do you wanna explain why comparing the skill differences between the moderately competent individuals and the masters within a skill set is invalid or are you just gonna state it as such and expect us to accept it? At no point did I try to claim having magic is a skill feat other than Kojiro obtaining True Magic, but that's entirely different from magecraft or magic in RKnC. I thought I made that clear, but I can explain more about the nature of True Magic if you want. I understand it is a more contextual thing to the verse, and you aren't very familiar with the Nasuverse, so I can help you out

You haven't actually explained why this magic control in and of itself is a massive skill feat. I know you did mention that stuff like Fire breath is impressive, but do you think we could get some examples of people in the same craft? I used golemancy and kabbalah as an example since the skill difference between practicing mages is much more observable. I gave context of what someone who is pretty good at magecraft can do, and then what a master mage but not absolute God tier can do, followed by why what the master can pull off is impressive in the context of the magecraft power system, then explained why Kojiro scales above it. If we just wanted to flaunt how crazy the power systems of magic are in our verses as skill, then I would have already submitted the 10-A detective from The Dunwich Horror to the skill list with his 1-A lightning who was a shitty wizard, but since his power system just allows for far greater magical bullshit without much effort or mastery

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I will respond tomorrow. (Which means maybe around 12 hours from now.)

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Aight, do what you need to do. I've added a bit more to it, just to round out the clarity of the point n stuff

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki's power copying isn't limited to martial arts, or to put it in a better way. Everything is called a form of martial arts in rakudai. Even trackless step which does that weird thing to make it look like ppl are invisible is martial arts. And there shouldn't be "perfection" in rakudai either, but ikki achieves it.

No matter how much time had gone into developing such a technique, in the end, it was created by humans.

Creating something perfect was impossible.

And if it was anything short of perfect, Ikki's perfect vision wouldn't miss it.

Same as how being capable of using spear or kodachi techniques with a katana requires more skill than using them with a spear. As for the combined skill points. Pretty sure that different martial arts do not contribute to transcending skill. Because skill in different martial arts doesn't really combine. So her skill with each individual martial art is not enough to give her "beyond human skill", she just knows a lot but within human limits. Similar to how Bang is far more skilled than Garou even though Garou knows a lot of martial arts.

Well "without his mind" i mean "while being unconscious/without thinking". And idk what surpassing it even means. You can either do it, or you can't. There is no "surpass it" without at least something to add on it. Also i'd need scans of any Battle Continuation dude fighting in the conditions i mentioned. Same for anyone achieving being one with the blade to render probability useless.

Yeah, but fighting other people is not a skill feat on it's own. Attacks not miss is still NLF when used against someone of much higher skill. The okita one, as i said it's not a real skill feat. You'll either use skill feats from the dude who kept up with her, or okita herself.

That's not even skill, it's a noble art.

I will be asking links for everything now if you don't mind it. Including the dude who can with skill copy noble arts.

So ugh forget about this point??

Well it was more a point of "what can be achieved with magic" and the differences between each and every system in rakudai. The reason i said that was because i felt like reality warping with magic was treated as a feat in and of its own rather than the difference. So i will say my bad on that.

As for the last one. People in the same craft? Wdym?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

When I say skills in fate, I don't just mean those that are directly combat applicable, but on the other hand, they can often copy a combat inapplicable ability like Charisma to the extent that it becomes combat applicable. I'll ask you, since I think you missunderstand what I mean when I say that. Let's say that Ikki used his power copying to copy the territory creation skill from fate. His "perfect" form would obviously be an EX rank of the skill, but would he gain the version that Geronimo has for creating camp sites, Solomon's version for creating temples to the extent that he could create another universe in the form of a "temple", Scheherazade's version for creating "bedrooms" where she is the most likely version to survive out of everything in existence, Fujino's version used got mass identification, etc. These versions are mutually exclusive, as to have one would border on different skills entirely for reasons I don't have time to get into. Let's assume for a moment that there isn't a NLF problem with Ikki copying such a skill, which is the "perfect" form of the territory creation skill?

Martial arts certainly do combine, but that's beside the point. Also, Musashi is not a master of all these martial arts, Red Hare is, in case you forgot. The skill point metaphor was so that you could understand that the sum skill it would take to master all known and unknown martial arts pales in comparison to the skill it would take to reach the skill level of Musashi or Kojiro. Red Hare's physiology makes his mastery of all martial arts even more impressive imo

Surpassing means that they have reached beyond a realm where thought and feeling do not exist. Fighting while asleep is far less than this. Here is a quote of Achilles, a user of the battle continuation skill, continuing to fight in absurd conditions. Lancer (Gareth), and inferior user, has some explicit statements about fighting even after mind and body were falling apart as well, if that is more your taste. We have been debating about Musashi being able to essentially eliminate any possibility of failure by locking in to an outcome where she wins via raw skill and mentality most of this match

My dude, as I said, I answered this question and gave context based on your request for information. I'm not actually trying to use anything from this point for the actual debate. Debating with Jing Ke is a pain in the ass, so I wouldn't have tried to bring her up.

Not sure what that means, but whatever

My dude, i gave that for your own info. I'd prefer not to get too off topic, but we can talk about it another time if you would legitimately like to know about the stuff that the manslayer can copy, but his most impressive skill feats since he can't copy Okita's mystic sword technique are back scaled from Musashi and Kojiro through the medium of Okita

Is this about the Hozoin point or the Hassan point?

I see, so you understand the point then?

I mean like, different people doing the same kind of magic. Like, for example (I'm assuming her skill set is unique, but I'll use her since I know her) that art girl. I would assume she is pretty great, so take her and compare her to someone that is only kinda good. If she can paint 5 copies of someone as powerful as Ikki on the time frame of a few seconds, then how long would it take someone who was only kind of good, and would they be of the same quality/quantity?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That seems like plain magic. Not skill. So i really cant say anything about it. Purely skill feats. Most of the things of copying, like noble phantasms and stuff aren't even purely skill.

It doesn't really take much skill, it just takes time. And no they do not combine, would you say that someone who masters every sbject on a high school level is smarter than Einstein? No, because it's not quantity that adds up to the skill, it's quality. Or another example would you call Composite Human (RIP) superhuman levels of skill? No, because he knows everything on a human level, not beyond human. It doesn't take more skill to master more stuff.

He litrally fights while he's completely unconscious, has an inactive mind. He fights in scenarios where his mind and instinct are literally against actions. He makes calculations without being conscious ffs xD. The example you gave was him using a form of catalyst to stay alive after he died or sth like that. And as long as they can think, it's not nearly on the same level as ikki. And that musashi thing is just precog and smarts. Both things ikki has. Besides, his senngan no kamae does almost the same thing.

So null point?

I meant that he was copying noble arts, not skill. But i guess you're saying let's forget about these.

This doesn't really add much. I mean since we're debating Musashi, so backscaling from them to them upscale to them can't happen xD.

The thing about repelling 2-A attacks or sth like that. From your wording i got the "drop it" vibe.

The "forget about this point" was for the repelling thing. Cus at least that's what i think you were saying.

Anyway onto the magic here. The thing is, i can't give you 2 examples of water users. I really can't think of any, but what i can give you is 2 examples from the same system. Magic in rakudai is divided in 4 systems:

Body Enhancement: The ability to enhance your body's stats

Natural Interference: The ability to manipulate natural things, usually elements, but it's just about anything really, even gravity is part of this.

Conceptual Manipulation: The ability to control a single concept. Example: wounds, dryness, image etc.

Causation Manipulation: The strongest of all of the above. Control causality, anything from fate or probability, to time, causality anything really. These users are VERY powerful, and i mean stupidly powerful most of the time (even actual fodder were giving stella a run for her money)

And you can almost never compare 2 magic types of different systems in terms of magic. Because Shizuku as stated needs complex calculations and processing to even throw something like an ice spear, where as Amane Shinomiya just needs to will shit into reality and once stated he could bring the moon down, so yeah, that's completely unfair.

Whereas within the same system we have Ouma Kurogane and/or Stella Vermillio who can at most do stuff like throw wind/fire, make barriers, invisibility by bending light, and that's about it. And those 2 are prodigies btw. On the other hand you have Shizuku and Kiriko Yakushi with the feats i mentioned above. Even though the ability remains more or less the same (water instead of wind or fire), the later 2 can make their bodies turn into elements, whereas Kiriko can detect a mistake on a cellular level just by looking. Another example i could give is Stella going from basic being capable of farting out fire, to spreding out her "incandenscence" and feeling everything around her including magical invisible lines.