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Time it happens, Fire Phoenix guy, this one-eyed swordswoman's gonna outskill your boy!
- Thread starter Diinou_HotHead
- Start date
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Alright guys we'll discuss this more at the end of the thread.
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Why not using the classic samurai battle theme? Where its silent but intense in same time
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Not now please
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This is going to be glorious. In my mind the music will be Ultimate Battle from Akira Kushida
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@Iap
Ikki predicts all possibilities via skill so he does accept multiple possibilities. Ikki also fights without a stance, i will post the quote below. His stanceless and usually just fights opponents with their own stance, that way it becomes pretty much impossible to beat him as he will be using the same thing you are, but better in every way. That's why if he takes a stance it'll ususally be a mirror stance. About senses, while he cannot do the dimensional stuff, he does see the future (not predict it, literally see visions of the future) due to having such great senses (among other stupidly good senses), so i would say they are comparable. Ikki should be able to get past nothingness.
But I'm not sure if he actually studies the sword.
Ikki's stance had no form. She did not see a warrior's refinement, only the use of reflexes to endure her attacks.
Ah i see. What if she's up against an opponent like ikki? He knows everything she can and will do with the exact timing even when she tries to act out of character or "change patterns". Making ikki attack just the way she wants to gonna be hard especially when this is the guy who can calculate how the battle will go before it even starts.
Desperado does mean he's above probability as well. They are above anything that falls under the "causation system" which includes probability. Though even then deciding probabilities IS deciding the future, which you cannot do to desperados. Because probability does still work by manipulating the future so. Whereas possibilities is plain fate hax. You're elminating the "possible futures", which is just fate hax. Ikki isn't bound by anything regarding cause and effect (he has the full advantages of type 4 acausality). Opening up possibilities for herself isn't gonna work, Ikki can limit what she can do if needed. Although he isn't keen on using desperado hax he will use them if needed, from the hax he should have (which means Edelweiss level of hax) he has only shown:
Death Hax: Makes it so that he enforces the causation of death so that the result he wants happens.
The usual fear hax: Incredibly powerful fear hax, but with some good feats of willpower it can get bypassed even without resistance.
Limitation Fate hax: It's what i like to call it, it's active fate hax where a desperado makes you unable to do certain actions or any action if needed. He will use this mostly to block escaping and stuff like that. While it's possible to pull a "nene" on opponents and just tell them "don't move" like nene did to Stella, he hasn't used it like that yet, so it's likely he doesn't want to do that.
So we will limit it to these 3 desperado hax he has shown.
This is already fun and we haven't reached the skill debate this is just the start, to see if the hax turn this into a stomp or not lol.
Ikki predicts all possibilities via skill so he does accept multiple possibilities. Ikki also fights without a stance, i will post the quote below. His stanceless and usually just fights opponents with their own stance, that way it becomes pretty much impossible to beat him as he will be using the same thing you are, but better in every way. That's why if he takes a stance it'll ususally be a mirror stance. About senses, while he cannot do the dimensional stuff, he does see the future (not predict it, literally see visions of the future) due to having such great senses (among other stupidly good senses), so i would say they are comparable. Ikki should be able to get past nothingness.
But I'm not sure if he actually studies the sword.
Ikki's stance had no form. She did not see a warrior's refinement, only the use of reflexes to endure her attacks.
Ah i see. What if she's up against an opponent like ikki? He knows everything she can and will do with the exact timing even when she tries to act out of character or "change patterns". Making ikki attack just the way she wants to gonna be hard especially when this is the guy who can calculate how the battle will go before it even starts.
Desperado does mean he's above probability as well. They are above anything that falls under the "causation system" which includes probability. Though even then deciding probabilities IS deciding the future, which you cannot do to desperados. Because probability does still work by manipulating the future so. Whereas possibilities is plain fate hax. You're elminating the "possible futures", which is just fate hax. Ikki isn't bound by anything regarding cause and effect (he has the full advantages of type 4 acausality). Opening up possibilities for herself isn't gonna work, Ikki can limit what she can do if needed. Although he isn't keen on using desperado hax he will use them if needed, from the hax he should have (which means Edelweiss level of hax) he has only shown:
Death Hax: Makes it so that he enforces the causation of death so that the result he wants happens.
The usual fear hax: Incredibly powerful fear hax, but with some good feats of willpower it can get bypassed even without resistance.
Limitation Fate hax: It's what i like to call it, it's active fate hax where a desperado makes you unable to do certain actions or any action if needed. He will use this mostly to block escaping and stuff like that. While it's possible to pull a "nene" on opponents and just tell them "don't move" like nene did to Stella, he hasn't used it like that yet, so it's likely he doesn't want to do that.
So we will limit it to these 3 desperado hax he has shown.
This is already fun and we haven't reached the skill debate this is just the start, to see if the hax turn this into a stomp or not lol.
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Baaaaaahmp?
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Too soon to bump lol.
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Cool, so he sounds similar to Yagyu's Suigetsu. It is more in line with their mentality, but since I guess he is able to bypass it as well I'll go with it for now.
She would counter it similar to how she countered Yagyu. Yagyu's techniques allow him to mirror and counter every single possible outcome of a fight, to the point that she (prior to fully attaining Zero), couldn't find a single future to latch onto and select that brought her victory. She ended up countering this by getting the upgrade of being able to create a new possibility. Also, the guide implies that even if the oponent knew exactly what her intentions were, she could still get them to act how she needs them to. She calculates every possible outcome of the battle as well, but she has the advantage of being able to create new outcomes for himself that he naturally would not be able to calculate
I see, so his verse counts probability and causality under the same umbrella. Fate does not regard possibility as inherently linked to causality, so this may be a problem. Do you wanna explain why openning new possibilities for herself, not Ikki, would not work? Him trying to limit her fate also won't work, since it is this vary thing she is bypassing. Even if there wasn't a single possible outcome where she wins she can open up another one.
Her NP counters the death hax
All of the sword saints can stand in eachother's presence despite their "Sword Ki", so I'm assuming that would be enough. Either way, one of the main basis of her abilities is her will towards finding a single answer, she should be fine
She can just create a new fate for herself and select that one if he tries to limit her future. Creating new possibilities is the way that Kojiro counters her selection of a single outcome, and although she doesn't unfold like an infinite amount of possibilities and numerous other possibilities at once, she can still create one or a few and select one of them.
Yee lol. Musashi has her sword as well, but given his lack of a fate and detatchment from causal systems, I don't think cutting his "Karma" or his Causality is gonna work. That being said, she can still cut his soul, so a single cut from her is victory, and I see he has the means to bypass durability as well. Hence, this will probably be down to who lands the first clean strike
hell yeah. Even if this does turn out to be a stomp, We can just switch over to Kojiro (or Yagyu, but Kojiro is more thematic). He doesn't have the defensive hax that Musashi does, but at the same time, Ikki's acausality doesn't prevent his technique of overlapping possibilities, which is basically meant to counter fate hax. Keep in mind, much of the scaling I'll be doing is gonna be done through scaling since surpassing the bounds of human skill is usually an unquantifiable feat, but there are a ton of other skilled characters which they scale leagues above
She would counter it similar to how she countered Yagyu. Yagyu's techniques allow him to mirror and counter every single possible outcome of a fight, to the point that she (prior to fully attaining Zero), couldn't find a single future to latch onto and select that brought her victory. She ended up countering this by getting the upgrade of being able to create a new possibility. Also, the guide implies that even if the oponent knew exactly what her intentions were, she could still get them to act how she needs them to. She calculates every possible outcome of the battle as well, but she has the advantage of being able to create new outcomes for himself that he naturally would not be able to calculate
I see, so his verse counts probability and causality under the same umbrella. Fate does not regard possibility as inherently linked to causality, so this may be a problem. Do you wanna explain why openning new possibilities for herself, not Ikki, would not work? Him trying to limit her fate also won't work, since it is this vary thing she is bypassing. Even if there wasn't a single possible outcome where she wins she can open up another one.
Her NP counters the death hax
All of the sword saints can stand in eachother's presence despite their "Sword Ki", so I'm assuming that would be enough. Either way, one of the main basis of her abilities is her will towards finding a single answer, she should be fine
She can just create a new fate for herself and select that one if he tries to limit her future. Creating new possibilities is the way that Kojiro counters her selection of a single outcome, and although she doesn't unfold like an infinite amount of possibilities and numerous other possibilities at once, she can still create one or a few and select one of them.
Yee lol. Musashi has her sword as well, but given his lack of a fate and detatchment from causal systems, I don't think cutting his "Karma" or his Causality is gonna work. That being said, she can still cut his soul, so a single cut from her is victory, and I see he has the means to bypass durability as well. Hence, this will probably be down to who lands the first clean strike
hell yeah. Even if this does turn out to be a stomp, We can just switch over to Kojiro (or Yagyu, but Kojiro is more thematic). He doesn't have the defensive hax that Musashi does, but at the same time, Ikki's acausality doesn't prevent his technique of overlapping possibilities, which is basically meant to counter fate hax. Keep in mind, much of the scaling I'll be doing is gonna be done through scaling since surpassing the bounds of human skill is usually an unquantifiable feat, but there are a ton of other skilled characters which they scale leagues above
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How does NP counter the death hax?
Hmm, i am unsure about the 1st, but the 2nd isn't really a strong willpower. The idea is, if a desperado shows bloodlust, people will start feeling their death on their backs. So the point is, does she have enough will to fight even if she knows she will die no matter what and see the way she will die?
Oh, that's where you were confused. Ikki doesn't limit your fate in a sense of "i erased all possible futures and only this one is left", he basically fate haxes your decision. He fate haxed the decision of a girl who tried to run away so that she wouldn't run away and fight him instead. The possibility or running away still obviously existed, though, she couldn't run away. So she would need resistance rather than opening possibilities.
Hmm, im not sure. The problem is, the sword itself is a manifestation of his soul. And it can tank a ton of damage (which is why he resists soul manip. So im not sure if cutting his soul is really gonna work on a dude whose soul tanks High 6-B attacks from other souls.
The stomp is not a problem, i just don't want this to be a hax stomp. Ikki can't really hax stomp cus as i said he only uses his hax for certain cases, so he won't really use them to stomp the gal. So if he can deal with her hax we should be safe.
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The idea is, she would still be unable to fool her identity. Unless she literally changes who she is, ikki will still know what she will do. And even if she creates new possibilities (which idk why that would work considering if it's hax, it gets countered by acausality, and if it's skill it gets countered by skill) ikki still has the danger sense which would make him see visions of the future if needed. In other words she would never be able to create a possibility to fool Ikki unless she straight up makes a possibility where he can't use desperado hax or skill, which acausality would protect him against. (Similar to the "find a future where he's a normal human". If it's that, it gets countered by acausality, if it's the same Ikki, skill becomes a problem). And the "she can fool opponents even if they know exactly her intentions", ikki did the same to actual mind and body reading. So it's a bit nlf to say she would be able to fool someone as skilled as Ikki. |
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Even we put those under the same umbrella. Which is why acausality type 4 can't be affected by probability. Because by manipulating probability you're affecting the chance of a future event to happen, which you can't do if he's beyond your system entirely. Though possibilities is plain fate hax. It's "how many possible futures are there" which is just precog, and fate hax if she can manipulate it. So either way, it won't work. About equalization, it does tend towards rakudai here. Because it doesn't matter how your show treats it if the verse says "he's beyond probability", even if probability isn't pure cause and effect in your verse (which it should be logically speaking), he still can't get affected by probability. He's beyond it. Her oppening up new possibilities for herself depends. On what she can do with those. Explain the capabilities and i'll explain why it works or why it doesn't. And creating new possibilities doesn't change fate hax. There can be countless possibilities, opening up a new one really doesn't change anything when he's saying "you have to follow this path", so basically he's forcing the path of fate you follow, there are other paths, he just chose this for you. Though as i said do not worry too much about this, ikki will be using this only against escaping routes (this is why he used it in canon), so things like teleporting or running away etc. So if she's not keen on doing those, it shouldn't be a problem until later on if he decides he has to make her unable to act. But the idea is it doesn't matter how she opens up new possibilities, it's useless if he's fate haxing her into doing certain things. She can choose which path to take, but not if someone chooses for her. |
Hmm, i am unsure about the 1st, but the 2nd isn't really a strong willpower. The idea is, if a desperado shows bloodlust, people will start feeling their death on their backs. So the point is, does she have enough will to fight even if she knows she will die no matter what and see the way she will die?
Oh, that's where you were confused. Ikki doesn't limit your fate in a sense of "i erased all possible futures and only this one is left", he basically fate haxes your decision. He fate haxed the decision of a girl who tried to run away so that she wouldn't run away and fight him instead. The possibility or running away still obviously existed, though, she couldn't run away. So she would need resistance rather than opening possibilities.
Hmm, im not sure. The problem is, the sword itself is a manifestation of his soul. And it can tank a ton of damage (which is why he resists soul manip. So im not sure if cutting his soul is really gonna work on a dude whose soul tanks High 6-B attacks from other souls.
The stomp is not a problem, i just don't want this to be a hax stomp. Ikki can't really hax stomp cus as i said he only uses his hax for certain cases, so he won't really use them to stomp the gal. So if he can deal with her hax we should be safe.
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I legit laughed here.Diinou HotHead said:
Though this is still just hax arguments. The fun hasn't even begun yet.
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That doesn't sound like fate manipulation, preventing someone from running. Fate manipulation doesn't influence the person's body.
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Fate can affect people's actions.The real cal howard said:
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And the words of the other day that Stella suddenly understood.
The words of Saikyou Nene.
Nene's words tied to her when she tried to charge at《Haboob》.
An invisible pressure.
That was also the result of her『intention』being swallowed deeply by her causality.
She finally agrees with Ikki's decision and then leaves the area by flying towards the sky with her wings of fire in order to chase after Or-Gaule. Iris wanted to stop Stella from leaving but she was stopped by Ikki's power to influence fate as a Desperado. Ikki's intimidation causes Iris to have stinging-like pain on her neck and prevents her from leaving. If she doesn't put her consciousness focused on Ikki and tries to go after Stella, then Ikki's blade would slip into her neck.
The words of Saikyou Nene.
Nene's words tied to her when she tried to charge at《Haboob》.
An invisible pressure.
That was also the result of her『intention』being swallowed deeply by her causality.
She finally agrees with Ikki's decision and then leaves the area by flying towards the sky with her wings of fire in order to chase after Or-Gaule. Iris wanted to stop Stella from leaving but she was stopped by Ikki's power to influence fate as a Desperado. Ikki's intimidation causes Iris to have stinging-like pain on her neck and prevents her from leaving. If she doesn't put her consciousness focused on Ikki and tries to go after Stella, then Ikki's blade would slip into her neck.
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If it's a pressure, it definitely isn't causality or fate. You can't literally feel a concept like that. It would be fate screwery if like, she tried to follow but she tripped on a banana peel when she tried to follow and her shoelaces were untied. Not to mention it's outright said to be caused by Ikki's intimidation factor.
Also....haboob?
Also....haboob?
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Intimidiation is in the context of "bloodlust" (the only time when desperado hax manifest). I will give a quote when edel says a similar thing here:The real cal howard said:
― I neither carved a vacuum dislocation nor used an ability. In the first place, my abilities are not suitable for combat. … Speaking of what I did, I just released a bit strengthened bloodlust.
― Y-you're lying! How can you wound the body of the opponent with intimidation only?
Intimidation and bloodlust are seemingly synonymous for the author.
As for the pressure, these guys feel pressure for anything really. Besides it's outright stated it is fate hax.
I strongly have the『intention』to hurt you a little, the gravitational pull of my fate swallows you
With the intention the fate hax manifests.
Now to the "pressure" being not literal, here is Stella going to face edelweiss:
Followed by Ikki and the others――
They ended up overtaking Stella in the blink of an eye.
Despite that, the three of them walked slowly to keep themselves behind Stella.
― Stella?
― Hey, are you going to see her or not? Or you're getting the cold feet at this late hour?
― T-that's not it!
Stella denied it and quickened her steps to overtake the three of them.
But――the distance didn't shorten.
Which wasn't surprising.
Because Stella hadn't given a step forward from the place she landed on.
― ――, what is…!?
No matter how much she tried to move forward, she just shoveled the snow under her feet.
She felt as if she tried to move forward while rubbing her forehead against an invisible wall.
― Wh-why!?
As one would expect, and based on Stella's state, Ikki and the others noticed that something strange happened to her body.
― Could it be that you can't move forward?
― Y-yeah. T-there seems to be something like an invisible wall in front of me. Maybe… a barrier or something?
There's something, isn't it?
To the words of Stella, who tried to say so,
― You're wrong.
Ascaride denied it.
― There are no walls here. You just aren't moving voluntarily.
― It's me, you say?
― Your soul understands the meaning of moving even further, and it's being intimidated by it.
― ――! Is there such a thing!?!?
Stella immediately returned an objection to the calm thing that Ascaride pointed out.
The feeling of her mind being overpowered by intimidation, Stella knew it well.
And that she certainly was nervous to challenge the peak of swordsmanship.
But, it appeared like there was nothing but an evident physical force interfering.
It was plain fear hax, yet she perceived it as a physical force. It's how they describe everything in rakudai at this point.
Yes, Haboob. Stella was going to charge at Haboob, but nene said this:
Stella held the sword as she urged herself with a feeling of impatience that she had to defeat this enemy as soon as possible,
― Don't move.
― ――!?
The few words of Nene, that possessed dignity and felt like they reprimanded her, stole the movement of her whole body.
It wasn't coercion.
That constraint sewed on Stella's body with a physical pressure as if her shoulders were pinned by an invisible hand.
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Okay, before I go to "going to sleep" Mode, remind me, why the talk about Fatehax again?
Both have Acausality 4
Both have Acausality 4
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Ikki can affect Acausal type 4's. That's why.Diinou HotHead said:
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But why? And how come all Desperado fights don't just devolve into loldon'tmove if they all can affect each other. Heck, why do they even have fate resistance/acausality in the first place if it's constantly contradicted with them affecting one another?
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> Ikki can affect Acausal type 4's. That's why.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a thing allowed.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a thing allowed.
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What Sigurd said.
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Yeah Yhwach had his almighty needed cause of that
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@Cal
They don't transcend causality completely, they transcend the causality of the world. They exist on a different level of causality let's say.
As for why desperados don't just "don't move each-other". Some desperados can affect others, while others can't. It's a form of desperado strength apparently, which was never made clear on who's considered stronger and shit. Example Edel can basically affect everyone, but Ikki can affect iris, but not Edel. It's very weird, but we just take what we can get via feats. If he affects another desperado then fine. As for why they don't just "lol don't move" don't ask me. Nene did that to stella but didn't do the same thing to Or Gaule let's say even though Nene was hilariously above him.
>Affecting acausal type 4 isn't allowed
Yes it is. Feats of affecting acausals is a thing. It's not even that uncommon. I've made GetBackers matches, i've dealt with the "can affect acausals with fate hax".
They don't transcend causality completely, they transcend the causality of the world. They exist on a different level of causality let's say.
As for why desperados don't just "don't move each-other". Some desperados can affect others, while others can't. It's a form of desperado strength apparently, which was never made clear on who's considered stronger and shit. Example Edel can basically affect everyone, but Ikki can affect iris, but not Edel. It's very weird, but we just take what we can get via feats. If he affects another desperado then fine. As for why they don't just "lol don't move" don't ask me. Nene did that to stella but didn't do the same thing to Or Gaule let's say even though Nene was hilariously above him.
>Affecting acausal type 4 isn't allowed
Yes it is. Feats of affecting acausals is a thing. It's not even that uncommon. I've made GetBackers matches, i've dealt with the "can affect acausals with fate hax".
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@Fire
How long ago were those matches? It was a few months ago that this wasn't allowed, hell Yhwach affected a type 4 Acasual and it got removed because of that
How long ago were those matches? It was a few months ago that this wasn't allowed, hell Yhwach affected a type 4 Acasual and it got removed because of that
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Acausality type 4 isn't immunity to fate hax. It's simply resistance, but a really weird form of resistance. Similar to how Non-Corporeality is "resistance" to raw strength.
Saying "if a type 4 gets affected by another type 4 neither of them are type 4" is like saying "if a soul touches another soul both of them are corporeal".
Saying "if a type 4 gets affected by another type 4 neither of them are type 4" is like saying "if a soul touches another soul both of them are corporeal".
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No, it's immunity.
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>ImmunityThe real cal howard said:
>Actually existing in this site.
Tell me when we say "Lucifer morningstar didn't burn his fate book because he was affected by the basanons".
Do link me the thread though.
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1-A.
Comparing Ikki's fate contradiction to a 1-A
Comparing Ikki's fate contradiction to a 1-A
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>Acausality is immunity
>1-A doesn't have immunity
Are we even sure we're talking about the "same" concept of immunity here? Im genuinely curious. Your argument is in reverse.
>Type 4 giving immunity to a 3D
>A 1-A couldn't get immunity in a similar way.
>1-A doesn't have immunity
Are we even sure we're talking about the "same" concept of immunity here? Im genuinely curious. Your argument is in reverse.
>Type 4 giving immunity to a 3D
>A 1-A couldn't get immunity in a similar way.
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Keep in mind that I hate fate hax as a concept in general, unless you're God with a capital G. So I do got my bias.
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Also can we just post quotes as imgur pics and then link them so we don't have to deal with walls of texts? Wondering what's going on now and who's winning.
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The real cal howard said:
But, -Ikki did not stop. He had stepped towards it. He ignored god's warning. Outside of fate, towards the 'domain of demonic beings'.
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Archie Sonic and Sword Logic users found the concept of affecting Acausality 4 easy.
Just justify the fact you have it with Acausality Negation
Just justify the fact you have it with Acausality Negation
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Allright if you guys want to argue the validity of fate hax you should probably do it in a revision thread.
