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Time it happens, Fire Phoenix guy, this one-eyed swordswoman's gonna outskill your boy!

They are literally collapsing and creating infinite futures/possibilities. They dont need to ******* scale from Saver, and they also transcend space time with their hax, so they are almost certainly Low 1-C in hax if you dont low ball
 
I don't think number of possibilities equate to the level of existence of your Fate hax though, and how do their fate hax scale to trascending space time? It's been a while since I read the scene.
 
Oh wow someone clash and infinite future is destroyed,then why Guda, chaldea, Salem can be here? That just probability not timeline.
 
He has the standard cocktail of authority resistances on a high level, and they are stated to create attacks that he cannot deal with.

Also, they ******* transcended the entire multiverse, completely over the pruning processes which contains infinite universes.
 
GLHF22 said:
Oh wow someone clash and infinite future is destroyed,then why Guda, chaldea, Salem can be here? That just probability not timeline.
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Ah yes, because their fight took place in the multiverse, so that makes complete sense. Also, this is pretty standard shit for Nasuverse stuff to refer to futures and alternate timelines as possibilities
 
I hope I can persuade you to look at Yagyu for a less hax alternative to Musashi, unless you are more disappointed because a potential Waifu turned out to be hax kek
 
I'm more disappointed that she didn't bring you closer to the hax side like Noel did. Fate has many Waifu and Husbando to offer tho, so im sure you will find someone you like eventually. You like Iri at least iirc
 
But that would mean that people wouldn't have the previous and major context of the skill debate we already had here. We may as well see if this skill debate goes on long enough to even warrant another thread, and if it does, then we can make it when the time comes.

Hell, we can get the OP changed of this thread to reflect the new discussion
 
Hmm yeah ok fair enough. Then on to replying to the points:

It's mostly if it completely lacks a consciousness. And they specifically have an unconsciousness from what you said making them more vulnerable than normal. As for the swordsmanship. They may not need it for swordsmanship, but they need it to perceive things.

That's way different from Edel's sword style. Edel's sword style makes it impossible to perceive via accel negation. What you're describing is not much different than Stella Vermillio and Ouma Kurogane's invisibility, neither of which are a big deal.

Completely moot point i guess since it's not skill. This point was Ten i Muhou iirc.

This too i guess. Since it's relying on NP, which is not skill. This iirc is Seigan No Kanae

This doesn't matter i guess since it's not skill, but just for context. He does transcend karma:

It wasn't clear if that was a good thing or not. Existing within fate meant that you were a prisoner of that fate and at the same time being protected by fate. There was always some measure of happiness to be found there. It was an area where anyone seeking a peaceful life would not step outside of. Consequently, she knew knights who had reached that point and stepped back on their own will. But, -Ikki did not stop. He had stepped towards it. He ignored god's warning. Outside of fate, towards the 'domain of demonic beings'.

(With that one step the 'Crownless Sword King' became an existence outside of this world's karma.)

This point IIRC was about Dokuga no tachi.

Hmm I guess my point here is moot as Oikage death hax isn't skill.

Last point, since this is a "skill fight" then. What can she do about ikki just amping himself?
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Eh, see, stuff like this is where thinking of it as power copying kinda breaks down. Thinking of it as more in line with creating a new skill or technique may be a better way to think of it, but the quirks of how the various servant systems regard skills means that stuff like gaining the history around something could be just a basic part of the ability or some super high end shit. They aren't exactly "creating" a new skill, but it functions similar to it, since higher end users are just getting higher end skills as long as they aren't unique to a specific person. They can either far surpass the person who they learned about the skill from, or they could be a step behind them. It really depends on what specific skill they are gaining in question.
It isn't that he like, knows they exist. Theoretically any of the grand casters should know that the martial arts he knows exists, but he has actually mastered them, which is a skill feat. Most of the harsh enviroments I mentioned can't be fought effectively in with any given conventional martial art. The US army has actually heavily researched means to successfully incapacitate someone in aquatic combat in a non-lethal manor, and despite their copious amounts of resources, they have yet to find one. Also, just to be clear, Red Hare's ability isn't "I am skilled enough that I can respond to any given situation" which, although it would be impressive, falls short of his actual ability of "I have a full blown martial art to respond to any given situation." I'm also not claiming that Musashi would necesarilly be able to fight in the vacuum of space better than Red Hare (although, she could, but that's beside the point), its that she has reached a level of mastery that even if you took the total sum of the hypothetical "skill points" being put into different martial arts all into sword combat (think of min-maxing in an RPG), Musashi and Kojiro would still surpass him in skill.

Well, Musashi is a sword fighter so if it came down to her getting a clean hit then ikki would be dead at that point, but I'm fairly sure it would also be true the other way around. Also, reactive defense/attack isn't a skill feat, but the ability to fight with the same level of skill even after you dumped every mental illness you can think of on them, is one. Musashi doesn't use a Sword-style in which she "becomes one" with her blade, even Pre-Zero, although it does produce a similar fruit since she is able to use her mentality perfectly in line with her blade, but she does far surpass the "lesser" arts which produce the ability to become one with their blade. People who become one with their blade have the ability to fight at peak skill despite any level of mental illness they have, but on the other hand, Musashi has surpassed thought and feeling itself due to the mastery over her blade.

I see, what is your point of this quote? It has some loose similarities to the void they reached, but this seems to more so be about becoming one with it instead of transcending it like Musashi and Kojiro can do.

Well, given his qualifications I would say his power copying is actually less impressive than him just being able to stand up against Okita, but I'll answer your question. Among the NP that fall within the rules of which he can power copy, guarantee that his attacks do not miss/fail via not valuing his own life (this is without the use of Fate Manip or anything like that), inflict instant death that works based on the target's mentality instead of resistance to instant death, have his body not be impeded by any damage or effects he takes up until the point he falls over dead, etc.

He may be able to "repel," but it isn't close to the level of which Hozoin can do it. As I mentioned, his technique is so absolute and absurd that he can block the numerous types of attacks I mentioned before, as well as repel attack on the level of the full blown ******* Buddha. I mentioned the Hassan body-modification arts to give context for her ability to give herself a ******* third arm to copy a technique from as little as rumors in some cases. Basically, her giving herself a third arm is, in fact, a skill feat, which is what you contested.

I see, well, my point was that nightingale can do this via raw skill, without the help of magic, while being mentally hampered. Using a magic comparison to it doesn't really help. Also, that does sound like some decently impressive magic feats, but given that those are still things within the bound of "human" limitation in the RKnC verse, they would still not take the level of ability of a True Magician, whose abilities are completely outside the reaches of things that can be obtained with Magecraft. Just in case you forgot, Kojiro is skilled enough that he is able to replicate phenomena on the level of True Magic, through raw skill. The difference between shitty magic users in RKnC does seem to be extreme, but it pails in comparison to the difference in skill levels between mages in Fate, even ignoring True Magician or trying to scale to things like AP difference. As an example:

  • Caster of Black: Most decently competent modern mages would struggle to create a single Golem on par with his quality over the course of a year, even with the amount of stacking knowledge and skill from generation to generation, but he is able to create 30+ top tier golems on a daily basis, and several thousand over the course of several months. This isn't even mentioning his ability to craft his ultimate golem, Adam, on the short timeframe of 2 months, which is a Golem of such high quality that it successfully replicates the miracle of the first creation of mankind, and can even overwrite the existence around it into the guardan of eden, successfully integrating another absurdly high skill level magecraft, of a Reality Marble. Reality Marbles in general are supposed to be something you can't obtain through raw research, and it is such a high tier magecraft that to even manifest one you need to be able to resist The World (basically the state of existence itself, but trying to explain such a complicated cosmological topic in detail isn't really doable rn) constantly trying to overwrite the internal reality you have constructed.
  • To summarize, he can perform 2 absurdly high tier feats of magecraft on a fraction of the timeframe it takes mage families (stacking their skill and research from generation to generation) to even create a golem on the level of his basic golem. One of these feats is a miracle on par with God (Capital G, not some random ass lower case g divine spirits), and the other is a feat of magecraft that people aren't even supposed to be able to obtain via research over several life times.
  • Avicebron isn't even that broken of a Caster servant in the context of Fate, but I think this makes him an even better representation of the skill difference between mages.
Yeah, we might just have to lol.
Click to expand...
This was the last comment pertaining to which of them was more skilled ^
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Weren't we supposed to be debating which of them is more skilled, not who would win in a skill fight?
Click to expand...
Well that is the primary basis of "who is more skilled".

In a skill fight who would come out on top? Which is why somethings like "good snipers" and "good sword users" can still be debated.

We judge charaters based on "combat skill" in other words "the skill they can show in a fight". If that leads to an inconc we can go back to the purely skill debate yes.
 
Not really. Especially in the case of servants in Fate, who is more skilled does not mean who will win, even of they are much weaker. Caster Shakespeare is undoubtably one of the most skilled Heroic Spirits there is, and due to his NP and skills he can make his writing abilities combat applicable, but that doesn't mean he will always win in a fight against another skilled character.

I think that if we just ignored all the hax and AP then the only way we could really determine who is more skilled is to raw compare that, since the interaction of people's techniques does not necessarily yield the winner as the more skilled of the two.
 
To better grasp my point, let's say we have 2 characters. We'll name them Ikki and Musashi.

Ikki has only 1 skill feat. He can copy sword techniques.

Musashi has only 1 skill feat. He can do Trackless Step.

Totally different skill based "techniques". Who would be more proficient in a fight? While you can't compare those 2 directly based on "which is more impressive" due to being different type of skills. In a fight Musashi would be far more proficient, taking down opponents without breaking a sweat.

That is the idea. We do not just randomly slap statements on a character and see who gets the win. That is just something we do for simplicity (i do it too most of the time due to how large Ikki's skill feats are in number). Because if X can do 20 feats. And Ikki can outperform all those and do a bunch more on top of it, what's even the point of arguing who would win in a fight? The winner becomes apparent with just those.

In this case due to both of these characters having such large "skill feats/statements" i believe it would be easier to argue them based on what they can do in a fight (techniques). Because at the end of the day, no matter how skilled you are, if you cannot use them with visible results, what's even the point?
 
Well, let's be real, we are trying to determine who is more skilled, since we already know who wins. I think that is some cases forms of skill are not comparable, but you can still loosely estimate who is more skilled, especially if those are combat applicable.

To use a similar example, if we took Medaka vs Bug Eaten in a raw skill battle, where Medaka can use her insane intelligence and raw mentality to learn new skills (as in, combat techniques and art forms, not the Medaka version of a skill) from a rumor or from the observation of a few techniques. On the other hand, Bug Eaten is an insanely skilled Sniper who could determine what his enemies power is from just a few glances, when other groups of high class tacticians needed to lose a few of their members to figure out what that ability is. He also managed to land attacks on a time stopper via figuring out where his enemy would move to dodge his strikes, so that even when they moved to dodge his unmoving bullets, one would still land no matter how he dodged. Assuming Medaka cannot copy his stand, but Bug Eaten is basically just firing bullets that would work the way the would on any human, this would be a match of raw skill. I think Bug-Eaten would win, just because his sniping skills are far more combat applicable and just because Medaka can copy how good of a sniper he is from seeing him fire a few bullets, she can't conjure a gun into existence, and Medaka probably could not learn his calculation power from a glance, if he were smarter than her in combat games. That being said, I would still say Medaka is certainly more skilled than Bug Eaten is. Being able to learn a martial art from someone loosely describing it is significantly better of a skill feat than what the other can offer, even if that ability will not yield the same results in a fight. You could say that Bug-Eaten's "skill techniques" hard counter Medaka's, so just trying to judge who would win in a hax off stat equal fight to determine who is more skilled is deeply flawed.

Scaling who would be stronger based on contextualized feats or scalable statements is far more reliable then tossing a Judo Master vs a Jiujitsu Master and seeing who wins, especially since the way those martial arts interact must be taken into account. Musashi/Kojiro/Yagyu and Ikki/Edelweiss both have an insane amount of stuff to work on to determine who is more skilled, both feats and contextualized statements. Taking their best, especially those that are in the same vein, is much more quantifiable, if that makes sense
 
As I said what's the point of feats if they're not combat applicable nor can be used with viable results in combat?

The idea of skill is the ability to do things without AP or speed advantage. If musashi can't really do things in a fight.... then what's the point of her skill?

Also we know who wins in a fight. Not in a skill battle. And at this point I'm pretty sure compatibility is a non issue. Ikki would do the same against literally everybody.
 
Though I do see where you're coming from. I'd gladly go back to arguing simply skill from statements and feats if you want to.

As long as you concede on the technique debate that is. ƒÿÅ

What do you say?
 
Well, I guess it would be that in a verse like Fate, what is combat applicable and what isn't is a heavily blurred line due to how the power system works. But in reverse, some of the most impressive skill feats aren't directly combat applicable, but to be able to perform them, users would still be able to apply that skill into combat applicable ways. I already gave you the Shakespeare example where even something like being a good writer is directly combat applicable. Caesar is good at telling speeches, Gilles is skilled at appreciating art, Mozart is good at crafting music, Muramasa is a legendary blacksmith, etc. But all of these things that wouldn't seem to be good in combat can be very good. Caesar can tell speeches with such word choice and vigor that he can rip apart is enemies world view and shatter their mind. Gilles can identify legendary relics due to his art stuff, and so on.

Musashi also has the issue that taking her out of a hax fight just means that you just view them in basically the same way. Trying to compare Ikki to her has the problem that he has numerous techniques where as she has one general martial art that includes numerous techniques surrounded around the same idea, although we don't see them, and we aren't supposed to. Trying to compare them on paper does in some way have compatibility issues, but it more so comes from the way the characters were written. Ikki is more akin to a Baki character with the way his techniques are written if that makes any sense

Define technique debate, it kinda matters since you may just definitionally win by default if its about the interaction of numerous techniques while Musashi and Kojiro aren't about that kind of thing. Yagyu would honestly be more fit for these things since his one technique is basically about countering numerous techniques with his impenetrable fighting style. I can agree to it depending on the terms but if we were gonna play that kind of game I would prefer to use Yagyu
 
I mean we can do Yagyu vs Ikki another time (right after this if you wanna).

So as i said, if you concede on this point we can go back to the skill debate.
 
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